Is Europe becoming uninvestable?

[Loss Horizon]

15 hours ago, Dalal.Holdings said:

European “democracy”: 276 in favor, 314 against becomes law. LMAO the European elites win again!

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/s/D4wDMOlV4M

 

 

Check that Reddit thread again.

 

 

I tried to find information about this proposal and the process, couldn't find anything in reputable sources, and there is no information about passing the law on the website of the Parliament. I don't think it's passed yet.

 

In general I am concerned with privacy very much. But for me the Big Tech is much bigger threat than any government agency, because government has no clue about technology and Big Tech is extremely smart in abusing it.

 

For chatting with my friends I have to use Whatsapp and Telegram. And I just have to accept that there is no privacy there, because I have zero trust in their developers. Facebook has a track record of selling private messages, and can probably sell to American Government. Durov has the same vibe and probably sells to Russian government.

 

If I truly needed high secrecy of my communication, I would use an independent operating system and an independent encryption system with keys I can control. But messengers like that are not popular, and none of my friends use that.

 

And again, I don't understand how this topic is an investment issue. China has Wechat and its economy is doing well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WeChat#State_surveillance_and_intelligence_gathering

 

Edited 11 hours ago by Loss Horizon

[Dalal.Holdings]

6 hours ago, Loss Horizon said:

 

Check that Reddit thread again.

 

 

I tried to find information about this proposal and the process, couldn't find anything in reputable sources, and there is no information about passing the law on the website of the Parliament. I don't think it's passed yet.

 

In general I am concerned with privacy very much. But for me the Big Tech is much bigger threat than any government agency, because government has no clue about technology and Big Tech is extremely smart in abusing it.

 

For chatting with my friends I have to use Whatsapp and Telegram. And I just have to accept that there is no privacy there, because I have zero trust in their developers. Facebook has a track record of selling private messages, and can probably sell to American Government. Durov has the same vibe and probably sells to Russian government.

 

If I truly needed high secrecy of my communication, I would use an independent operating system and an independent encryption system with keys I can control. But messengers like that are not popular, and none of my friends use that.

 

And again, I don't understand how this topic is an investment issue. China has Wechat and its economy is doing well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WeChat#State_surveillance_and_intelligence_gathering

 

So the parliament for a bill that has failed repeatedly sneaks a vote in right before recess and it passes even though there are more nays than yays and your response is “NBD”??? LOL

 

You are more worried about private companies like Facebook having your data than actual governments that have a track record of throwing people in prison for “wrong speech”?? Do I have that right???

 

 What are you worried Mark Zuckerberg is going to do? Sell you more ads???

 

You are worried they might “sell” this data to the government, so instead you’d rather just hand the keys directly to the government??? LMAO

 

And you are right: you can choose a different operating system or not to use facebook. If Chat Control passes, you have no choice left! The government gets everything! Your logic makes zero sense…

 

A lot of Europeans believe fear mongering conspiracy theories about the big bad American tech companies, but then have total faith in their governments that keep deceiving them…

 

Individual rights, privacy, and free speech are first and foremost supposed to be about protections from the government (not so much private companies). Americans are more distrustful of government and for the right reasons. 

[Dalal.Holdings]

LOL they’re still posting stuff like this! And getting bodied in the comments 

 

 

 

 

[John Hjorth]

2 minutes ago, Dalal.Holdings said:

Don’t worry, guys, I’m sure handing these people all your data will be just fine:

 

https://www.noticer.news/belgian-nationalist-convicted-hate-speech-factual-lecture/
 

“Dries Van Langenhove, 33, who was previously sentenced to one year in prison for “offensive” memes posted by other people in a private group chat, faced the Correctional Court of First Instance in Leuven on Tuesday over a lecture he made at KU Leuven in February 2024.”

 

@Dalal.Holdings,

 

Who says this isen't *'just'* about [*'plain'*] libel?

[Spekulatius]

7 hours ago, Loss Horizon said:

 

Check that Reddit thread again.

 

 

I tried to find information about this proposal and the process, couldn't find anything in reputable sources, and there is no information about passing the law on the website of the Parliament. I don't think it's passed yet.

 

In general I am concerned with privacy very much. But for me the Big Tech is much bigger threat than any government agency, because government has no clue about technology and Big Tech is extremely smart in abusing it.

 

For chatting with my friends I have to use Whatsapp and Telegram. And I just have to accept that there is no privacy there, because I have zero trust in their developers. Facebook has a track record of selling private messages, and can probably sell to American Government. Durov has the same vibe and probably sells to Russian government.

 

If I truly needed high secrecy of my communication, I would use an independent operating system and an independent encryption system with keys I can control. But messengers like that are not popular, and none of my friends use that.

 

And again, I don't understand how this topic is an investment issue. China has Wechat and its economy is doing well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WeChat#State_surveillance_and_intelligence_gathering

 

If you commit a crime in the US the police here gets all your data on smartphones, social media etc. This is well known and documented in many prosecutions and trials.

[Spekulatius]

16 minutes ago, John Hjorth said:

 

@Dalal.Holdings,

 

Who says this isen't *'just'* about [*'plain'*] libel?

I don’t know what this guy posted but how is this prosecution resulting in anything productive? These libel laws exist for good reason but now with ubiquitous social media it has become very easy to prosecute violations and to push the letter of the law much further than they were intended and that’s what is happening here.

[Dalal.Holdings]

36 minutes ago, Spekulatius said:

If you commit a crime in the US the police here gets all your data on smartphones, social media etc. This is well known and documented in many prosecutions and trials.

Nope. It's well documented that they cannot:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple–FBI_encryption_dispute

 

Quote

In another case in Brooklyn, a magistrate judge ruled that the All Writs Act could not be used to compel Apple to unlock an iPhone.

 

In the U.S., a warrant via a judge can allow law enforcement to get more info--that's a good hurdle to accessing data. Chat control has no such hurdles and the government can have all data of criminals and innocent people.

 

Apple does not have the keys to its own end to end encryption. They are serious about privacy. This has been a recurring dispute and even leaders like Macron have confronted Signal, etc about this. The UK is demanding Apple weaken its encryption/install a backdoor. They cannot stand that there is data they cannot access...

 

https://cryptobriefing.com/uk-surveillance-apple-backdoor-crypto/

 

Quote

The United States Congress is investigating the UK’s use of secret Technical Capability Notices (TCNs) under the Investigatory Powers Act, which effectively compel American tech companies to weaken encryption or build backdoors into their products. House Judiciary Committee Chairman Jim Jordan and Foreign Affairs Committee Chairman Brian Mast are leading the investigation.

 

Edited 2 hours ago by Dalal.Holdings

[Dalal.Holdings]

39 minutes ago, John Hjorth said:

 

@Dalal.Holdings,

 

Who says this isen't *'just'* about [*'plain'*] libel?

The guy was in a group chat where people posted allegedly racist and nazi memes. He got charged for being in a group chat. I am sure the content was reprehensible and people can socially ostracize such folks, but there is no accusation of libel or violence so why should he be charged for a crime? 

 

Even the ACLU has a long history of defending nazi and racist rights to demonstrate so long as it's peaceful:

 

https://www.aclu.org/news/civil-liberties/defending-speech-we-hate

 

Free speech means you have to defend even free speech you strongly disagree with. But we all know now that Europe does not really have Free Speech so the argument is moot.

[Paarslaars]

43 minutes ago, Spekulatius said:

I don’t know what this guy posted but how is this prosecution resulting in anything productive? These libel laws exist for good reason but now with ubiquitous social media it has become very easy to prosecute violations and to push the letter of the law much further than they were intended and that’s what is happening here.

Yeah this was in my country and kinda ridiculous... 

 

Don't get me wrong, some of those posts were quite vile: "man that bitch has a punchable face" or "you know the nazi also used to send the gays to camp too". But in the end no actions were committed, just a bunch of college guys with dark humor taking it a bit too far.

 

Unfortunately this started during the whole woke era and they kinda made an example out of him because he was the 'head figure' of the fraternity.

[Spekulatius]

6 minutes ago, Paarslaars said:

Yeah this was in my country and kinda ridiculous... 

 

Don't get me wrong, some of those posts were quite vile: "man that bitch has a punchable face" or "you know the nazi also used to send the gays to camp too". But in the end no actions were committed, just a bunch of college guys with dark humor taking it a bit too far.

 

Unfortunately this started during the whole woke era and they kinda made an example out of him because he was the 'head figure' of the fraternity.

The same kind off thing eeee said 20, 30

,40 years ago, but when you said, there was no record of it, so it wasn’t prosecuted . Now we have a record of anything , so a overzealous prosecutor can go after

anybody doing this. It’s even worse when politically motivated. What purpose does to serve? It’s like the Streisand effect with these things - instead of suppression this things, they amplify them.

 

Ant the people posting this know this too..

 

 

[John Hjorth]

30 minutes ago, Dalal.Holdings said:

The guy was in a group chat where people posted allegedly racist and nazi memes. He got charged for being in a group chat. I am sure the content was reprehensible and people can socially ostracize such folks, but there is no accusation of libel or violence so why should he be charged for a crime? 

 

Even the ACLU has a long history of defending nazi and racist rights to demonstrate so long as it's peaceful:

 

https://www.aclu.org/news/civil-liberties/defending-speech-we-hate

 

Free speech means you have to defend even free speech you strongly disagree with. But we all know now that Europe does not really have Free Speech so the argument is moot.

 

@Dalal.Holdings,

 

There is much more to it than that, it has more dimensions.

 

Each countrys supreme court draw the lines, and those courts do it based on the courts assessment of what's acceptable behavior, based on norms and custom behavior - and the limits of that - in a given country.

 

I'm professionally raised under more, much more!, demanding requirements by the national professional body than that, where I've over the years seen Danish CPAs fined dearly [off court, no possibily for appeal, pay the fine, or get the boot] for behavior, that isen't by Danish law illegal.

 

- - - o 0 o - - -

 

Ref. the above from you, you've got to elaborate specificly about what was the basis for the charge in the first place.

[Dalal.Holdings]

15 minutes ago, John Hjorth said:

 

@Dalal.Holdings,

 

There is much more to it than that, it has more dimensions.

 

Each countrys supreme court draw the lines, and those courts do it based on the courts assessment of what's acceptable behavior, based on norms and custom behavior - and the limits of that - in a given country.

 

I'm professionally raised under more, much more!, demanding requirements by the national professional body than that, where I've over the years seen Danish CPAs fined dearly [off court, no possibily for appeal, pay the fine, or get the boot] for behavior, that isen't by Danish law illegal.

 

- - - o 0 o - - -

 

Ref. the above from you, you've got to elaborate specificly about what was the basis for the charge in the first place.

Your post is highly convoluted and makes no sense. We Americans like to keep things simple. Free Speech is Free as long as there is no libel (with a high bar) or threats of violence. It's our First Amendment for a reason.

 

Europeans should just admit that they do not have Free Speech.

[cubsfan]

25 minutes ago, Dalal.Holdings said:

Your post is highly convoluted and makes no sense. We Americans like to keep things simple. Free Speech is Free as long as there is no libel (with a high bar) or threats of violence. It's our First Amendment for a reason.

 

Europeans should just admit that they do not have Free Speech.

 

Yup, not that hard to figure out.

 

Take it any further and you have all the ingredients to eliminate and punish political opinions. 

[Charlie]

1 hour ago, Dalal.Holdings said:

Free speech means you have to defend even free speech you strongly disagree with. But we all know now that Europe does not really have Free Speech so the argument is moot.

@Dalal.Holdings Have you been once in Europe?

 

@John Hjorth After the german heat, we are travelling in one week for 3 weeks to Denmark (Vrist). 

Any recommendations for our holiday?

 

 

[Dalal.Holdings]

7 minutes ago, Charlie said:

@Dalal.Holdings Have you been once in Europe?

 

@John Hjorth After the german heat, we are travelling in one week for 3 weeks to Denmark (Vrist). 

Any recommendations for our holiday?

 

 

Is that at all relevant to the topic at hand? Yes. I've lived in Europe and worked for a European firm for a brief stint. I've also traveled there for fun many times.

 

I want good things for Europe and my problem is that its leaders have hurt Europe in big ways. Look at German industry for an example.