Couldn't Have Happened To a Nicer Guy!

[Parsad]

https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/02/business/alex-jones-bankruptcy/index.html

 

Cheers!

[Red Lion]

Just now, Parsad said:

https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/02/business/alex-jones-bankruptcyindex.html

 

Cheers!

 

From my law school days I seem to remember that punitive damages are non-dischargeable in bankruptcy, so I highly doubt he's going to ever get past this unless the verdicts get overturned on appeal. 

 

https://www.reuters.com/legal/alex-jones-must-pay-473-million-punitive-damages-sandy-hook-defamation-case-2022-11-10/

[Sweet]

He is repugnant, but $1.5 billion in damages?  That is crazy.  It’s more crazy than he is… and he is batshit crazy.

 

Edited December 2, 2022 by Sweet

[LC]

Yeah I agree. The guy said repugnant shit. Sorry but so what? 

[tede02]

1 hour ago, LC said:

Yeah I agree. The guy said repugnant shit. Sorry but so what? 

 

I have no interest in a big debate but the issue is he was profiting off his lies and causing real harm to people. I'm more sensitive to this now than ever because my oldest child is 6 years old, the same age as many of the kids were at Sandy Hook. Imagine your child is murdered, and the next thing you know all these psychos start calling you, sending threatening messages and stalking because some lunatic on the internet is peddling a narrative, for money, that the entire thing was a hoax. One of parents committed suicide ultimately. Alex Jones deserves every damn penny of that judgement. He earned himself a life of misery. 

[adesigar]

In my opinion he got off easy and should have served jail time. 

Edited December 3, 2022 by adesigar

[Sweet]

1 hour ago, adesigar said:

In my opinion he got off easy and should have served jail time. 

What actions specifically deserved jail time?

 

 

[Parsad]

16 hours ago, Sweet said:

What actions specifically deserved jail time?

 

 

 

If a Netherlands resident, who blackmailed a teenage girl online and she subsequently committed suicide, got 12 years in Canada, Alex Jones deserves nothing less.  

 

On 12/2/2022 at 3:30 PM, Sweet said:

He is repugnant, but $1.5 billion in damages?  That is crazy.  It’s more crazy than he is… and he is batshit crazy.

 

 

I believe the judgment was more to deter any future such behavior from others...thus the crazy numbers.  What is the likelihood that wealthy media owners would behave in such a way again after this?  

 

Cheers!

[aws]

I don't know if any actions yet deserve jail time, but I wouldn't be surprised if he eventually sees the inside of a jail cell. From the descriptions of the corporate bankruptcy I've seen, he likely fraudulently conveyed assets to keep them out of the hands of those with judgments (huge mysterious debts to entities owned by his parents happened to appear on his books to drain any equity they might have had). That combined with his contempt for the legal system that allowed for the default judgments in the civil cases likely mean that he will not meet his responsibilities in the bankruptcy process, or will do other things that leave him in contempt of court.

 

[Blugolds]

 

2 hours ago, Parsad said:

 

What is the likelihood that wealthy media owners would behave in such a way again after this?  

 

Cheers!

 

Jones words and crazy theories getting people killed isnt any different than words/theories → insurrection getting someone shot in the capital. Words have consequences, and the stakes are higher when you have more ears, because statistically the chances are better that at least one pair of those ears isnt gonna have much between them and will act on said crazy fictitious BS.  

 

Also, like @tede02 said , "profiting off his lies"...kind of like a "Stop the Steal" campaign...donate your dollars to my fictitious cause that I will then use in whatever way I see fit. 

 

 

To think that he does not deserve jail time is IMO unjust. There is a reason yelling FIRE! is illegal. Words causing people to act can get people killed, in various ways, there has to be some kind of accountability for that, especially today when more and more people have the ability to instantly reach more ears than ever before.

 

If I drive drunk, and am swerving all over the road but dont personally hurt anyone...but another driver in the other lane swerves to miss me, thus striking and killing a pedestrian...is the other driver guilty for the death or am I? Is it enough for me to just pay to have the other persons car repaired? Financial punishment IMO is not enough for egregious acts. There are a lot of people in this country sitting in a cell for MUCH less, ie blue collar guy fell behind on child support, marijuana/war on drugs anyone? collecting rainwater in some states..etc etc. 

 

His MO is the same as the maestro himself, encourage division of the republic via lies for personal financial gain even if it costs lives. 

 

Unfortunately Jones wasnt the first, and wont be the last. 

 

[LC]

Well I’ll just say that (in the USA) 1- shouting fire (falsely) in a crowded theater is in fact legal, and 2- this was the argument used to jail those objecting the country’s draft of young men to go fight and die in WW1.

 

We can’t have it both ways and nor should we!

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_theater#:~:text="Shouting fire in a crowded,Supreme Court case Schenck v.

[Sweet]

8 hours ago, Parsad said:

 

If a Netherlands resident, who blackmailed a teenage girl online and she subsequently committed suicide, got 12 years in Canada, Alex Jones deserves nothing less.  

 

 

I believe the judgment was more to deter any future such behavior from others...thus the crazy numbers.  What is the likelihood that wealthy media owners would behave in such a way again after this?  

 

Cheers!

 

Did Alex Jones blackmail someone (which is illegal) and then that person killed themselves?  I don’t follow the comparison if he didn’t.  I can understand the Canadian example.

 

Regarding the sum of money, I know it’s as much about deterrence but it’s still wrong in my view.

 

There are two wrongs, and I find it shocking that otherwise sane people are advocating for punishment amounting to $1.5 billion.  I don’t find anything Alex Jones does shocking because he is a nut job to be ignored.

 

Can you not see how the former is more worrying lol?

 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Sweet

[Sweet]

4 hours ago, Blugolds11 said:

 

 

Jones words and crazy theories getting people killed isnt any different than words/theories → insurrection getting someone shot in the capital. Words have consequences, and the stakes are higher when you have more ears, because statistically the chances are better that at least one pair of those ears isnt gonna have much between them and will act on said crazy fictitious BS.  

 

Also, like @tede02 said , "profiting off his lies"...kind of like a "Stop the Steal" campaign...donate your dollars to my fictitious cause that I will then use in whatever way I see fit. 

 

 

To think that he does not deserve jail time is IMO unjust. There is a reason yelling FIRE! is illegal. Words causing people to act can get people killed, in various ways, there has to be some kind of accountability for that, especially today when more and more people have the ability to instantly reach more ears than ever before.

 

If I drive drunk, and am swerving all over the road but dont personally hurt anyone...but another driver in the other lane swerves to miss me, thus striking and killing a pedestrian...is the other driver guilty for the death or am I? Is it enough for me to just pay to have the other persons car repaired? Financial punishment IMO is not enough for egregious acts. There are a lot of people in this country sitting in a cell for MUCH less, ie blue collar guy fell behind on child support, marijuana/war on drugs anyone? collecting rainwater in some states..etc etc. 

 

His MO is the same as the maestro himself, encourage division of the republic via lies for personal financial gain even if it costs lives. 

 

Unfortunately Jones wasnt the first, and wont be the last. 

 

Words definitely and rightly have consequences, and often the area isn’t clear, but incitement is punishable.  
 

I don’t know much about Alex Jones, so if you want to tell what specifically he has said that deserves jail time I’m all ears.

[Blugolds]

18 minutes ago, Sweet said:

Words definitely and rightly have consequences, and often the area isn’t clear, but incitement is punishable.  
 

I don’t know much about Alex Jones, so if you want to tell what specifically he has said that deserves jail time I’m all ears.

 

Its actually very American to speak out against gov, cant fault the guy for that, its the way he does it, he dog whistles to his extreme right supporters to take action against the gov (and anyone who thinks differently) while he collects checks and people get hurt. His "false flag" agenda borrows from the Russian/KGB disinformation playbook. 

 

These dog whistles IMO make him culpable for sedition. 

 

Will he go to jail for any of this? No. 

 

At the very least a case could be made for perjury, but that probably wont stick either...Big surprise, the guy is a liar. 

 

 

 

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/alex-jones

 

"Alex Jones has made a name for himself peddling wild antigovernment conspiracy theories. Jones’ most notable conspiracies revolve around national tragedies and terrorist attacks he labels as “false flag” operations. With millions of regular viewers and over two decades on the air, Jones has created a financial and brand empire out of selling misinformation and disinformation, as well as self-help dietary products. His uncorroborated reporting has led to many innocent people being harassed by internet trolls both online and in person. His politically charged stunts have made headlines, and by 2021, his calls for Trump supporters to protest the Biden presidency helped fuel the Jan. 6 insurrection on the U.S. Capitol building. Jones is one of the most prolific and influential conspiracy theorists in contemporary America."

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/14/alex-jones-5-most-disturbing-ridiculous-conspiracy-theories.html

 

Politics is ugly, parties on both sides spit inaccurate info at each other and to followers, nothing new. I think the difference with Jones is that his actions contribute and encourage violence from his followers, followers that just happen to be ready and willing to act. I dont see that in such magnitude from any other political players on either side of the aisle besides the aforementioned. 

 

I dont think its a right or left thing, I think this guy contributes significantly to the division of the country via lies to his huge following, division that frankly as an American, Im tired of. I actually abhor politics. And will welcome any leader, from either side, that leads and focuses on uniting the country. IMO we aren't right or left, we're American, with some slightly different views on how to get to a fairly similar goal. Everyone basically wants the same basic things at the end of the day. Im sure the Russians love the guy, he saves them a lot of work! 

 

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/what-conspiracy-theorist-alex-jones-said-in-the-lead-up-to-the-capitol-riot/

 

The unprecedented insurrection left five people dead, including a Capitol Police officer and a woman who was shot by police while participating in the siege. One person who was later charged with unlawful possession of a destructive device allegedly parked a vehicle with 11 homemade bombs two blocks from the Capitol building. The unprecedented insurrection left five people dead, including a Capitol Police officer and a woman who was shot by police while participating in the siege. One person who was later charged with unlawful possession of a destructive device allegedly parked a vehicle with 11 homemade bombs two blocks from the Capitol building. An avid follower of Jones and his site InfoWars was sent to prison for stalking the family of a child killed at Sandy Hook Elementary School after Jones claimed the shootings in Newtown, Connecticut, had been staged. And a man who believed the Pizzagate conspiracy promoted by Jones and others showed up at a restaurant in Washington, D.C., with an assault rifle and opened fire.

 

 

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-lists/alex-jones-mis-infowars-7-bat-sht-conspiracy-theories-195468/former-fox-news-host-glenn-beck-is-a-cia-operative-114463/?sub_action=logged_in

 

The government is complicit in countless terrorist and lone-gunman attacks

"Jones doesn’t stop with 9/11 – he also claims the Boston Marathon bombing was an inside job, and has said the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting was a hoax that involved child actors. Jones has also said Jared Loughner, who killed six people and seriously wounded Rep. Gabrielle Giffords in 2011, was a “staged mind-control operation.” “The government employs geometric psychological-warfare experts that know exactly how to indirectly manipulate unstable people through the media,” Jones said. “They implanted the idea in his head by repeatedly asking, ‘Is Giffords in danger?'” In 2016, the Brussels attacks and the Pulse shooting in Orlando were “false flag” operations, Jones said, arguing that the government allowed radical Islamists into the country so they “can attack us and then have our freedoms taken.”

 

 

 

I mean the irony of the above bold and underlined (my doing) would be comical if it wasnt so sad and dangerous...the guy is accusing the US gov of doing exactly what he has done for decades and profited handsomely from!

[Sweet]

@Blugolds11 an argument could be made for sedation I agree.  
 

However that needs to be a separate stand along trial judged on its own merits.

 

I also agree this isn’t about politics either, Alex Jones is just a nut job.

[Red Lion]

I would think the goal here is maybe to use the bk court to reduce the punitive damages award. Even in California the appeals courts typically reduce punitives to no more than 3x the actual damages.  
 

I don’t think he violated any criminal laws unless there was some type of bk fraud, which seems unlikely. 
 

Still I agree with the original sentiment that it couldn’t have happened to a nicer guy. 
 

 

[RichardGibbons]

8 hours ago, Sweet said:

However that needs to be a separate stand along trial judged on its own merits.

 

It's also worth noting that "should have served jail time" can mean:

1. "He broke a law and should have been sentenced to jail time", or,
2. "There ought to be a law where he'd serve time for what he did", or
3. "The punishment for what he did should be prison."

e.g. For #2, if someone is depressed, and someone else convinces them to kill themselves, it isn't a crime, but one can still reasonably believe that the convincer should go to prison.

 

For #3, if a man rapes a 15-year-old girl in a Sharia Law country, and the girl is stoned as a result and the man gets off with 10 lashes, one can still believe that the punishment for the man should involve prison.

 

You seem to be assuming #1, when others could be talking about #2 or #3.

[Sweet]

37 minutes ago, RichardGibbons said:

 

It's also worth noting that "should have served jail time" can mean:

1. "He broke a law and should have been sentenced to jail time", or,
2. "There ought to be a law where he'd serve time for what he did", or
3. "The punishment for what he did should be prison."

e.g. For #2, if someone is depressed, and someone else convinces them to kill themselves, it isn't a crime, but one can still reasonably believe that the convincer should go to prison.

 

For #3, if a man rapes a 15-year-old girl in a Sharia Law country, and the girl is stoned as a result and the man gets off with 10 lashes, one can still believe that the punishment for the man should involve prison.

 

You seem to be assuming #1, when others could be talking about #2 or #3.

Yes I think you are right.

[Blugolds]

4 hours ago, RichardGibbons said:

 

It's also worth noting that "should have served jail time" can mean:

1. "He broke a law and should have been sentenced to jail time", or,
2. "There ought to be a law where he'd serve time for what he did", or
3. "The punishment for what he did should be prison."

e.g. For #2, if someone is depressed, and someone else convinces them to kill themselves, it isn't a crime, but one can still reasonably believe that the convincer should go to prison.

 

For #3, if a man rapes a 15-year-old girl in a Sharia Law country, and the girl is stoned as a result and the man gets off with 10 lashes, one can still believe that the punishment for the man should involve prison.

 

You seem to be assuming #1, when others could be talking about #2 or #3.

 

I also think you are right.

 

Philosophy of law, morality, ethics, civil vs criminal, preponderance of evidence vs beyond a reasonable doubt all in play. Each interesting for discussion between avg joes on the sidelines, but none of it really matters until/unless those with the burden of proof have evidence to bring the claim and evidence to meet the applicable burden.

 

Subjective vs Objective perception. Perhaps the discrepancy is in the term "deserves" as it relates to jail time. 

 

Subjectively Jones is a nutjob that should be held accountable for his actions and damage done to individuals and the country.  

Objectively there are grey areas, criminal conviction could come via perjury thanks to his lawyers SNAFU releasing evidence to the prosecution showing documents existed that Jones previously denied, did the professional liar....lie?  There often seems to be a direct correlation between the amount of grey and the size of someone's checkbook and political connections.

 

Lets be real, likely he'll work some deals, lawyers will lawyer, create some doubt, and he'll get out with a black eye but his pain/discomfort will not be unbearable. He's not going to be living on the streets.

 

As to @Sweet comment about the shocking $1.5B, I agree and see your point, let the punishment fit the crime. If we agree that $1.5B is startling, perhaps even unjust itself, the question becomes, what then is an appropriate number? @RedLionhas mentioned 3x actual damages as an example, personally I have no opinion on a specific dollar amount with the only criteria being significant enough to:

 

1. Provide adequate compensation for those wronged (who's to say what adequate is)

2 Serve as a deterrence for others who may behave in a similar way in the future 

 

$1.5B probably accomplishes both, but could the same criteria be met with a lower judgment? 

1. Probably

2. Dunno, depends on how deep the pockets are

[Parsad]

Another twat who got what he deserved!  Cheers!

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/avenatti-sentenced-14-years-california-203611572.html

[Saluki]

I'm not a bankruptcy lawyer, but if I recall correctly they should be able to claw back some of that money that he shifted around to other entities to (allegedly) avoid paying creditors.  I believe there is a 6 month lookback for unrelated parties (you are a restaurant and  paid the meat supplier right before you filed, but not the liquor distributor), and two years for related parties (you transfer assets to an affiliate that you control, or to your brother in law etc).  In some states, the lookback is four years instead of two. 

 

Punitive damages are meant to punish and deter outrageous conduct.  A billion sounds like a lot, but when Ford decided that they shouldn't fix the Pinto gas tanks even though they knew people would die horrible deaths by literally being burned alive because it was less expensive to pay people off in the cars that blew up than to fix every car, that's the type of thing punitive damages are for. 

 

I don't know if you know anyone that has lost a child.  It's something that you wouldn't wish on your worst enemy. Imagine if that happened to you and that while you are grieving someone on internet was telling millions of people that you don't even have a child because it was all made up.  And then that persons unhinged followers are driving to your home and filming you and calling you and demanding that you dig up your child's coffin and do a DNA test to prove that you are not lying. And that emails showed he knew he was lying but kept doing it because he was making so much money from it.  Is that something that deserves punitive damages?  

 

 

[Parsad]

And the hits keep on playing!  Another shitbag getting their just desserts!

 

https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/06/politics/trump-organization-fraud-trial-verdict/index.html

 

Cheers!

[tooskinneejs]

48 minutes ago, Parsad said:

And the hits keep on playing!  Another shitbag getting their just desserts!

 

https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/06/politics/trump-organization-fraud-trial-verdict/index.html

 

Cheers!

Weird case "against Trump."  As I understand it, the ex-CFO received compensation and didn't declare it on his taxes.  The ex-CFO gets a slap on the wrist and the company is found guilty.  Seems to me like the CFO should be the one being punished.

[Parsad]

5 minutes ago, tooskinneejs said:

Weird case "against Trump."  As I understand it, the ex-CFO received compensation and didn't declare it on his taxes.  The ex-CFO gets a slap on the wrist and the company is found guilty.  Seems to me like the CFO should be the one being punished.

 

He made a plea deal to implicate the Trump organization.  So he's getting punished, but less than if he stayed silent and didn't disclose that Trump signed off on many of the benefits himself.  Cheers!