Russia-Ukrainian War - Political

[Mephistopheles]

35 minutes ago, Sweet said:

What made it worse for Vance, particularly when he was demanding Zelenskyy say thanks, was that he voted against sending aid to Ukraine. I didn’t realise this to this morning.  He went full Karen in the oval offices and he’s a liability.  I wonder if he is in the next Oval Office meeting - if not Trump may have sidelined him.

 

Zelenskyy made a mistake too, he took the bait when he should have shut up.  But he’s a president of a country at war for over three years.  You can see visibility the toll it has taken on him.   He’s done more for his people than just about any other modern politician I think off.  In other words he deserves some slack.

 

No slack for Vance though.  It’s permanently altered my view of him.
 

Good video by the way @Xerxes of the Gen. Jack Keane.  

 

 

Hopefully Trump doesn’t sideline Vance by sending an angry mob kill him like he did to the previous VP.

 

[John Hjorth]

AP New - Politics [March 2^nd 2025] : UK, France and Ukraine agree to work on ceasefire plan for Russia’s war in Ukraine.

 

At least and finally, some adults are taking the initiative and are stepping up to the task. About time, I would say. I think it is important here, that two countries engaging here are of the ones with nuclear capabilities.

 

I still think, this will eventually fail, though [because of the counterpart, Russia].

 

And then we can hope for a tangible and positive outcome of the meeting in London tomorrow today.

Edited yesterday at 12:43 PM by John Hjorth

[skanjete]

It is astonishing that no one here is talking about the incredible cynicism and hypocrisy that America is displaying regarding Ukraine. To fully understand the situation, we need to go back to the collapse of the USSR in 1991. When Ukraine became independent, it was a significant nuclear power since many of the USSR’s nuclear weapons were stationed in Ukraine, aimed at the West.

 

The West, led by the USA, did not want Ukraine to become a new nuclear power and insisted that Ukraine give up its nuclear weapons and transfer them to Russia, along with strategic bombers (which are now bombing Ukraine). To persuade Ukraine, security guarantees were provided by the USA, the UK, France, and Russia. Ukraine was supposed to remain neutral, as laid out in the Budapest Memorandum of 1994.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum

 

However, during the Bucharest Summit in April 2008, NATO made a statement promising future membership for Ukraine and Georgia.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine–NATO_relations#:~:text=At the NATO summit in,Ukraine would eventually become members.

 

This push came from the United States, despite strong opposition from Germany (Merkel) and France (Sarkozy), who feared it would undermine relations with Russia and weaken NATO rather than strengthen it. But the Americans pushed forward, despite Putin making it clear he would never allow it.

In 2008, during the Summer Olympics, Russia invaded Georgia to restore control. In Ukraine, they attempted a political strategy by supporting a pro-Russian president. When that did not seem to work, things escalated with the war and the annexation of Crimea in 2014. The rest of the history is well known.

The United States played a clear role in provoking Russia, despite the Budapest Memorandum and despite European objections. They ignored Putin’s clear warnings that he would never accept this. And to be clear: this happened under both Democratic and Republican presidents.

Now, after 15 years, it has become evident what a catastrophic policy this was. America is pulling back, conceding to Russia on all fronts, while Ukraine is the biggest victim. It has lost 20% of its territory, its economy is devastated, its population is traumatized, and it no longer has the security guarantees it had under the Budapest Memorandum. And now the US is trying to shift the responsibility and blame onto the victim...

 

For the sake of clarity: I do not consider myself a party to this conflict. I am not a citizen of Ukraine, Russia, the United States, the UK, Germany, or France. I see myself as an objective observer.

[james22]

15 minutes ago, skanjete said:

The West, led by the USA, did not want Ukraine to become a new nuclear power and insisted that Ukraine give up its nuclear weapons and transfer them to Russia, along with strategic bombers (which are now bombing Ukraine).

 

Nah.

 

It was Russia that did not want Ukraine to become a new nuclear power.

 

The West simply recognized that.

 

On 2/22/2025 at 11:04 AM, james22 said:

“The Soviets wanted to give the impression of a diverse coalition of states, particularly in order to justify their demand for multiple seats at the United Nations, so Ukraine was presented to the world as a powerful Soviet Socialist Republic.”

 

Then in 1954, Khrushchev, himself a Ukrainian, ceded territory and nominal control of military forces to Ukraine but, “it was all a show, because everyone knew the Kremlin retained total control:

 

When those borders suddenly became “real” in 1991, amidst the collapse of the Soviet Union, Kiev found itself in control of a nuclear arsenal, the Black Sea fleet, Russia’s most important commercial and naval ports in the world (Odessa and Sevastopol), and tens of millions of Russians.

 

US diplomats realized the situation was dangerously untenable, and quickly pressed Kiev to return the nuclear arsenal and Black Sea fleet to Russia. Unfortunately, the adjustments stopped there, leaving Ukraine with a bigger bite of Russia than it could safely chew.

 

Was Ukraine strong enough to maintain both its territorial integrity and its political independence? That is the question that Loyola asks. History has answered with a resounding no.

 

"Ukraine had no problem controlling the territory as long as it accepted Moscow’s control,” Loyola points out. “But the moment it definitively broke away from Moscow in 2014, it immediately lost control of those areas that were most vital to Russian interests, and nobody with an even minimal sense of Russian and Ukrainian history can pretend to have been taken by surprise.”

 

https://thespectator.com/topic/donald-trump-comments-ukraine-gambit-bring-peace/

 

https://thefederalist.com/2022/02/04/in-russia-crisis-ukraine-should-trade-land-for-independence/

[james22]

Zelensky has powerful motivations to reject a deal, no matter how bad the battlefield realities get. His incentive is to continue a doomed war even if it leads to the complete destruction of Ukraine.

 

Instead of offering unconditional support, Zelensky’s supporters in the West should be urging him to seek a diplomatic off-ramp. Certainly they should stop catering to his unrealistic and maximalist demands.

 

As Solzhenitsyn said, the yes-man is your enemy, but a friend will argue with you.

 

 

[james22]

skanjete mean "scan life"?

[james22]

The Melian Dialogue

 

It tells the story of how Athens confronts the tiny island of Melos, a neutral ally of Sparta. Athens demands that the island surrender its neutrality. The leaders of Melos resist. Athens delivers an ultimatum: surrender or be destroyed.  

 

The Melians offer a number of arguments about why they should not be forced to capitulate. Athens is not being fair, the Melians have right on their side, et cetera. In perhaps the most famous bit of the episode, the Athenians explain that “the right, as the world goes, is only in question between equal power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.” 

 

This was not, perhaps, a shining moment for the Athenians. But it does have the virtue of being a true description of the way the world actually works.

 

https://thespectator.com/topic/volodymyr-zelensky-goes-town-oval-office/

[Xerxes]

53 minutes ago, skanjete said:

It is astonishing that no one here is talking about the incredible cynicism and hypocrisy that America is displaying regarding Ukraine. To fully understand the situation, we need to go back to the collapse of the USSR in 1991. When Ukraine became independent, it was a significant nuclear power since many of the USSR’s nuclear weapons were stationed in Ukraine, aimed at the West.

 

The West, led by the USA, did not want Ukraine to become a new nuclear power and insisted that Ukraine give up its nuclear weapons and transfer them to Russia, along with strategic bombers (which are now bombing Ukraine). To persuade Ukraine, security guarantees were provided by the USA, the UK, France, and Russia. Ukraine was supposed to remain neutral, as laid out in the Budapest Memorandum of 1994.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum

 

However, during the Bucharest Summit in April 2008, NATO made a statement promising future membership for Ukraine and Georgia.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine–NATO_relations#:~:text=At the NATO summit in,Ukraine would eventually become members.

 

This push came from the United States, despite strong opposition from Germany (Merkel) and France (Sarkozy), who feared it would undermine relations with Russia and weaken NATO rather than strengthen it. But the Americans pushed forward, despite Putin making it clear he would never allow it.

In 2008, during the Summer Olympics, Russia invaded Georgia to restore control. In Ukraine, they attempted a political strategy by supporting a pro-Russian president. When that did not seem to work, things escalated with the war and the annexation of Crimea in 2014. The rest of the history is well known.

The United States played a clear role in provoking Russia, despite the Budapest Memorandum and despite European objections. They ignored Putin’s clear warnings that he would never accept this. And to be clear: this happened under both Democratic and Republican presidents.

Now, after 15 years, it has become evident what a catastrophic policy this was. America is pulling back, conceding to Russia on all fronts, while Ukraine is the biggest victim. It has lost 20% of its territory, its economy is devastated, its population is traumatized, and it no longer has the security guarantees it had under the Budapest Memorandum. And now the US is trying to shift the responsibility and blame onto the victim...

 

For the sake of clarity: I do not consider myself a party to this conflict. I am not a citizen of Ukraine, Russia, the United States, the UK, Germany, or France. I see myself as an objective observer.

As an objective observer your initial observation is incorrect. I reposted my answer of someone else on the same topic below. And yet people keep saying that. ex: If there are substantial nuclear weapons based in Alaska and if it were to declare independence from U.S., those nukes do not become the property of newly created Alaska nation.  They remain the property of Federal government and are no different than U.S. nukes based in Turkey. 
 

If the federal government itself is on its way out to be replace with a new government, ownership still does not get transfer to Alaska. 

———-/-//———-

Those ICBMs were not Ukraine’ to give or not to give, nor they had command and control. They belonged to the Soviet Union, and then Russia as the surviving state. 

That said I agree that they could have “taken” them and through their ingenuity found a way to control them. They are after all resourceful people. Had they done that, they would have become a pariah state. You cannot change one parameter in the past assume everything else would have remain the same. 

 

 

[Xerxes]

17 minutes ago, james22 said:

The Melian Dialogue

 

It tells the story of how Athens confronts the tiny island of Melos, a neutral ally of Sparta. Athens demands that the island surrender its neutrality. The leaders of Melos resist. Athens delivers an ultimatum: surrender or be destroyed.  

 

The Melians offer a number of arguments about why they should not be forced to capitulate. Athens is not being fair, the Melians have right on their side, et cetera. In perhaps the most famous bit of the episode, the Athenians explain that “the right, as the world goes, is only in question between equal power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.” 

 

This was not, perhaps, a shining moment for the Athenians. But it does have the virtue of being a true description of the way the world actually works.

 

https://thespectator.com/topic/volodymyr-zelensky-goes-town-oval-office/

I prefer the story when Xerxes went to Athens … and he didn’t use “little green men” like Putin did with Crimea 

[james22]

1 minute ago, Xerxes said:

I prefer the story when Xerxes went to Athens ...

 

Ha!

[Spekulatius]

We have not seen the peace deal yet that Trump and Vance have drafted up. All we know so far is that Russia has not given an inch of concession from their maximalist demands which goes way beyond just keeping the territories they have so far. Russia maximalist demands would make Ukraine would have take Russia far more territory than they have already and removes any possibility to have an independent  Ukrainian state. It would be like Belarus.

 

It’s not a problem for Trump or Vance but it is a problem for Zelenskyy and the Ukrainian people obviously. I think this has probably created seeds this fiasco in addition to USA voting with Russia and North Korea and with Russia. Trump/Vance does this because they can’t bully Russia easily but they think they can bully Ukraine to do whatever they like.

 

Vance is not the right man for the job. He is not a problem solver. What he does is just amplifying Trump and try to score point for himself. Note his signature gesture of putting his hand toward his heart as if the American hymn is playing when he starts talking

 

When he talks to foreign audiences he does not address his the counterparts but the US MAGA audience at home. This is consistent with everything  I have seen so far from him.

Edited yesterday at 01:03 PM by Spekulatius

[Sweet]

55 minutes ago, james22 said:

Zelensky has powerful motivations to reject a deal, no matter how bad the battlefield realities get. His incentive is to continue a doomed war even if it leads to the complete destruction of Ukraine.

 

Instead of offering unconditional support, Zelensky’s supporters in the West should be urging him to seek a diplomatic off-ramp. Certainly they should stop catering to his unrealistic and maximalist demands.

 

As Solzhenitsyn said, the yes-man is your enemy, but a friend will argue with you.

 

 

David Sacks?  One of the biggest doofuses around.

 

There is an extraordinary difference in quality between his analysis and that of Victor Hanson.  
 

Hanson is making well reasoned points, Sacks is playing pop-psychologist for half of his post, stating things he cannot possibly know.

[Sweet]

19 minutes ago, Spekulatius said:

We have not seen the peace deal yet that Trump and Vance have drafted up. All we know so far is that Russia has not given an inch of concession from their maximalist demands which goes way beyond just keeping the territories they have so far. Russia maximalist demands would make Ukraine would have take Russia far more territory than they have already and removes any possibility to have an independent  Ukrainian state. It would be like Belarus.

 

It’s not a problem for Trump or Vance but it is a problem for Zelenskyy and the Ukrainian people obviously. I think this has probably created seeds this fiasco in addition to USA voting with Russia and North Korea and with Russia. Trump/Vance does this because they can’t bully Russia easily but they think they can bully Ukraine to do whatever they like.

 

Vance is not the right man for the job. He is not a problem solver. What he does is just amplifying Trump and try to score point for himself. Note his signature gesture of putting his hand toward his heart as if the American hymn is playing when he starts talking

 

When he talks to foreign audiences he does not address his the counterparts but the US MAGA audience at home. This is consistent with everything  I have seen so far from him.

That’s my reading of events too.  Europe needs a US aligned foreign policy, rather than a US dependent foreign policy.  The former would have / will? give them independence and muscle so that Ukraine doesn’t need the US.  But this has been known for years and nothing was done.

[Parsad]

5 hours ago, Sweet said:

What made it worse for Vance, particularly when he was demanding Zelenskyy say thanks, was that he voted against sending aid to Ukraine. I didn’t realise this to this morning.  He went full Karen in the oval offices and he’s a liability.  I wonder if he is in the next Oval Office meeting - if not Trump may have sidelined him.

 

Zelenskyy made a mistake too, he took the bait when he should have shut up.  But he’s a president of a country at war for over three years.  You can see visibility the toll it has taken on him.   He’s done more for his people than just about any other modern politician I think off.  In other words he deserves some slack.

 

No slack for Vance though.  It’s permanently altered my view of him.
 

Good video by the way @Xerxes of the Gen. Jack Keane.  

 

Also, what's with the attacks on Zelenskyy's attire?  Elon prances around every day in a t-shirt and jeans at the White House.  SNL did a hilarious cold opening with Mike Myer's playing Elon last night.  Cheers!

 

 

[Parsad]

46 minutes ago, Spekulatius said:

We have not seen the peace deal yet that Trump and Vance have drafted up. All we know so far is that Russia has not given an inch of concession from their maximalist demands which goes way beyond just keeping the territories they have so far. Russia maximalist demands would make Ukraine would have take Russia far more territory than they have already and removes any possibility to have an independent  Ukrainian state. It would be like Belarus.

 

It’s not a problem for Trump or Vance but it is a problem for Zelenskyy and the Ukrainian people obviously. I think this has probably created seeds this fiasco in addition to USA voting with Russia and North Korea and with Russia. Trump/Vance does this because they can’t bully Russia easily but they think they can bully Ukraine to do whatever they like.

 

Vance is not the right man for the job. He is not a problem solver. What he does is just amplifying Trump and try to score point for himself. Note his signature gesture of putting his hand toward his heart as if the American hymn is playing when he starts talking

 

When he talks to foreign audiences he does not address his the counterparts but the US MAGA audience at home. This is consistent with everything  I have seen so far from him.

 

Well so far MAGA has:

• Ended the war in Gaza...maybe
• Ended the war in Ukraine...maybe
• Brought down the price of eggs...nope
• Stock market is up...nope
• Economy is booming...nope
• Measles has been eradicated...was 15 years ago, but now is back
• Global allies are awed by Trump's negotiating skills...nope
• Epstein files show all of the non-Trump-related culprits...mostly Trump, Ivana, Ivanka
• US generosity is spreading across the world...nope
• Closest allies all love Trump...nope
• U.S. anthem is heralded all over the globe...nope
• U.S. diplomacy is at an all-time high...nope
• DOGE has saved a total of 0.05% of the U.S. budget over the next 4 years...yup!

Great start to the Trump era for the first 40 days!  Cheers!

[Spekulatius]

15 minutes ago, Parsad said:

 

Also, what's with the attacks on Zelenskyy's attire?  Elon prances around every day in a t-shirt and jeans at the White House.  SNL did a hilarious cold opening with Mike Myer's playing Elon last night.  Cheers!

 

 

I don’t like Trump but he is not difficult to read really. I think it was a mistake for Zelenskyy to keep his regular pullover attire. It sounds petty but I think Trump doesn’t like it be sure because it ruins his photo shoot. Trump is all about appearance and he regards the Oval office sort of like a kings court.  Zelenskyy does not fit it. It’s the problem here on display that both men don’t like each other. Trump like Putin way more so than Zelenskyy, that’s totally clear.

 

Zelenskyy job is it to take something home, so he needs Trump to like him as much as is possible. He has failed in this mission.

 

Again, watch Macron play Trump in the meeting in the Oval Office a couple of days ago. It’s a masterpiece of diplomacy. Zelenskyy can’t pull this off.

Edited yesterday at 01:53 PM by Spekulatius

[Sweet]

17 minutes ago, Parsad said:

 

Also, what's with the attacks on Zelenskyy's attire?  Elon prances around every day in a t-shirt and jeans at the White House.  SNL did a hilarious cold opening with Mike Myer's playing Elon last night.  Cheers!

 

 

I’ve no idea.  It’s really quite strange.  The people complaining about his dress couldn’t shine his shoes.

[Parsad]

1 minute ago, Spekulatius said:

I think it was a mistake for Zelenskyy to keep his regular pullover attire. It sounds petty but I think Trump doesn’t like it be sure because it ruins his photo shoot. Trump is all about appearance and he regards the Oval office sort of like a kings court.  Zelenskyy does not fit it. It’s the problem here on display that both men don’t like each other. Trump like Putin way more so than Zelenskyy, that’s totally clear.

 

Zelenskyy job is it to take something home so he needs Trump to like him as much as is possible. He has failed in this mission.

 

Again, watch Macron play Trump in the meeting a couple of days ago. It’s a masterpiece of diplomacy. Zelenskyy can’t pull this off.

 

That's probably because Zelenskyy isn't a real politician.  He was a popular vote...someone thought to have some integrity and would change things.  Not sure he knows how to play games.  

 

That being said, Trump may think he's the king, but Zelenskyy was his guest.  Trump tries to play the everyday man with the golden dick...eats McDonalds and everyone loves him...but he's a shyster and hypocrite.  

 

The atmosphere had become toxic as soon as that fucker in the crowd made a dig at Zelenskyy's attire.  Not a very Christian thing to do...mock a guest who has come to regrettably sign over his country's resources, so that they don't get screwed over by a friend of the same person he's signing the resource over to and hoping to guarantee his country's security!  

 

Cheers!

[cwericb]

I was thinking about Trump and his boasts of being a deal maker and thought, ya know I’ve made my share of successful multi-million dollar deals over the years, and the very first thing I always asked myself was, do I trust this person? Because you really can’t deal with someone you don’t trust. 

 

So looking at Trump, this guy has a long reputation of being untrustworthy and not living up to agreements. The guy has a record of at least a half dozen bankruptcies, and brags about ripping up formal previously signed agreements.  

 

He might be a great BS artist, but he is no deal maker.  

 

Here is one of his latest examples:   

 

Donald Trump said that tariffs on Canada will have to be instituted because this trade deal was “signed by a previous administration and leader who was a fool”. 

 

[Parsad]

4 minutes ago, cwericb said:

I was thinking about Trump and his boasts of being a deal maker and thought, ya know I’ve made my share of successful multi-million dollar deals over the years, and the very first thing I always asked myself was, do I trust this person? Because you really can’t deal with someone you don’t trust. 

 

So looking at Trump, this guy has a long reputation of being untrustworthy and not living up to agreements. The guy has a record of at least a half dozen bankruptcies, and brags about ripping up formal previously signed agreements.  

 

He might be a great BS artist, but he is no deal maker.  

 

Here is one of his latest examples:   

 

Donald Trump said that tariffs on Canada will have to be instituted because this trade deal was “signed by a previous administration and leader who was a fool”. 

 

 

Awww c'mon...that's an AI fake created by the left-leaning woke media!  Who are you trying to fool here?  Donald's hands in real life are much bigger, as is his signature with those new presidential Sharpies.  Cheers!

[Xerxes]

32 minutes ago, Parsad said:

 

Also, what's with the attacks on Zelenskyy's attire?  Elon prances around every day in a t-shirt and jeans at the White House.  SNL did a hilarious cold opening with Mike Myer's playing Elon last night.  Cheers!

 

 

I agree with @Spekulatius on the attire. 
 

If this former AQ bro could go from revolutionary to stateman, (and he still does not have control over half of his country) so can Zelenskyy.

 

It is called being pragmatic. 
 

Zelenskyy is great leader. Ukraine is lucky to have him. But he is too knee deep in the trenches. The world has changed. He needs to change and adapt. 
 

 

[cubsfan]

 

 

https://nypost.com/2025/03/01/opinion/dems-lead-zelensky-ukraine-off-a-cliff-with-pressure-to-reject-mineral-deal/

 

Before meeting Trump, Zelensky met with anti-Trump Democrats who advised him to reject the terms of the mineral deal the president was offering, according to Sen. Chris Murphy (D-Conn.).

The earlier meeting with Dems undercuts wild claims that Trump and Vice President J.D. Vance staged an ambush. In fact, it was Zelensky who came with an ulterior motive.

 

The purpose of the meeting was to sign the mineral agreement he and Trump representatives had negotiated. He had twice refused to sign it after promising to, and thanks to Murphy, we now know he had no intention of signing it Friday.

 

By listening to the nakedly partisan advice of Dems instead of dealing forthrightly with the current president, Zelensky betrayed his countrymen and, for now at least, leaves them without the military and diplomatic protection that only America can provide.

 

Good luck counting on Britain, France and the rest of Europe to save Ukraine. Maybe the Germans will send strudel.

 

[Xerxes]

28 minutes ago, Spekulatius said:

Again, watch Macron play Trump in the meeting in the Oval Office a couple of days ago. It’s a masterpiece of diplomacy. Zelenskyy can’t pull this off.

 

Macron is a former Rothschild investment banker. He is smooth as a silk. 
 

There is also language barrier for Zelenskyy. 

[cwericb]

18 minutes ago, Parsad said:

 

Awww c'mon...that's an AI fake created by the left-leaning woke media!  Who are you trying to fool here?  Donald's hands in real life are much bigger, as is his signature with those new presidential Sharpies.  Cheers!

 

As someone said about Trump after seeing that comment: "Trump should have been twins. No one man could be that stupid."

[cubsfan]

Major big time fuck up by Zelensky as a negotiator. 

 

Verbally agree with the very party that can save you. Then, go around your sponsor and negotiate with people underneath him. You never, ever, ever do that in a negotiation UNLESS you are willing to blow up your own deal. 

 

Live and learn Zelensky - good luck getting back into the White House when you can't be trusted.

 

 

More: 

 

Trump off to the fastest start of any president in modern history, Dems are desperate to be relevant.

 

It’s a mark of their bad judgment that Zelensky is their new hero. He & they have zero chance of persuading tapped-out Americans that an open-ended commitment of their tax dollars and possibly sending troops to Ukraine is sensible.

 

Certainly Trump supporters didn’t vote for that, and the president himself campaigned on bringing the war to a fast end, not sending our army to fight Russians.