Russia-Ukrainian War - Political

[Luke]

That all the "slava ukraini" fighters are triggered by these words where selenskies was directed into a subordinate position is interesting but makes sense.

 

Its time to make peace and take a ceasefire and sit together with the big boys, US, Russia and China and settle this war. Trump, Orban, Vance etc are all non-nonsense men who are realists.

 

If you want ukraine to get the regions back you would have to want WW3, thats crazy.

[Sweet]

3 minutes ago, Luke said:

I think Trump and Vance are smarter than people give them credit. They are realists, whats in here for the US? They delivered billions of USD for 0 gains and a stalemate with ukraine slowly losing anyways. The mantra since 3 years always was "we need more weapons" "we need this kind of weapon and that will be the gamechanger", nothing of that changed the slowly but sure outcome of ukraine losing everything. What do you want to give them when they lack manpower and their infrastructure is destroyed? Even with better rockets, russia will immediately up the gear and escalate into destroying more critical infrastructure before those taurus weapons arrive, it will be public anyways.

 

There is no Win here for ukraine or the west, not without significant risks and significantly more men cost. Suppose ukraine could get the territories back with the support of Nato troops by the US and Germany, how many would have to come? Germany has 300k active soldiers, is 100k enough? What stops russia from using tactical nukes in that case because then russia is threatened on a different level with direct war against nato. What would that bring us and the US? That ukraine has more regions? Why would we sacrifice so much money and soldiers for that?

 

The hitler analogy is ridiculous because russia lacks the manpower to do anything against nato countries and can be disregarded.

 

Trump and Vance want a settlement now, it was enough. Selensky will always try again and again but he needs a clear resounding "NO", you have no cards, get a deal and lets bring the world together again.

 

Thats diplomacy, while not ideal, it will save lifes and bring enough calm to find a position where both security interests from russia and ukraine are guaranteed.

 

Sort of agree with some of what you are saying, but 0 gains?  Really?

 

The Russians were 12 miles from Kyiv.  They are now about 500 miles from Kyiv.

[backtothebeach]

Don't just watch short or edited clips, or worse, coverage by certain media outlets.

This Forbes channel is doing a good job recently just publishing original content without commentary.

If you have time, here is the raw footage of the whole thing in context:
 

[Luke]

Just now, Sweet said:

Sort of agree with some of what you are saying, but 0 gains?  Really?

 

The Russians were 12 miles from Kyiv.  They are now about 500 miles from Kyiv.

That was some small battalion that tried to rush it. You have to remember, russia also didnt send their best men in this war so far, if you ask russians, they mostly send men that are poor from the countryside or these wagner legionaires that are basically prisoners. Then now they are using north-koreans, all the poor and powerless guys are at the front, not the educated and wealthier middle-classes of the bigger cities. Total mobilization didnt happen yet, meanwhile in ukraine basically there is no middle-class anymore and selensky takes every joe no matter your status to the front.

[james22]

13 minutes ago, Sweet said:

https://edition.cnn.com/2025/02/28/politics/volodymyr-zelensky-thankful-us-fact-check/index.html

 

The Zelensky tweet of thanks was after today's meeting.

 

Sure seems like an admission/damage control.

[Luke]

4 minutes ago, backtothebeach said:

Don't just watch short or edited clips, or worse, coverage by certain media outlets.

This Forbes channel is doing a good job recently just publishing original content without commentary.

If you have time, here is the raw footage of the whole thing in context:
 

Yeah great stuff this is available to the public, kudos again to trump and vance to life stream that for us and everyone can make their own picture of this conversation. "you are gambling with world war 3 and millions of lives". I couldnt agree more. Selensky continues to push for total war without even taking a ceasefire deal, straighout refusing it is madness for the men that are fighting in ukraine right now. Even crazier because russians would take a ceasefire probably...

[CGJB]

13 minutes ago, Luke said:

I think Trump and Vance are smarter than people give them credit. They are realists, whats in here for the US?

 

Nothing. I think Trump and Vance see the US, China and Russia as the world's three great powers. And Trump wants differences/conflicts played out and settled via trade, tariffs, access to markets, etc. In other words, he doesn't want shooting wars.

[Sweet]

17 minutes ago, james22 said:

 

The Zelensky tweet of thanks was after today's meeting.

 

Sure seems like an admission/damage control.

Yes… it was.  It doesn’t seem like an admission or damage control to me.

 

Moreover it’s now the 34th, 35th, 36th and 37th ‘thank yous’

Edited 4 hours ago by Sweet

[Luke]

And i love the response "what if putin breaks the cease-fire"

 

"what if a bomb breaks on your head right now".

 

He is absolutely right, those people try to not change the status quo by coming up with abstract theoretical scenarios or hitler 2.0 visions. You need to start somewhere. You need to give a hand as hard as it may seem. A ceasefire is a start, negotiations can take place with bigger partners, once no more war everyone calms down, both parties can move towards another...

[cubsfan]

1 minute ago, Luke said:

Yeah great stuff this is available to the public, kudos again to trump and vance to life stream that for us and everyone can make their own picture of this conversation. "you are gambling with world war 3 and millions of lives". I couldnt agree more. Selensky continues to push for total war without even taking a ceasefire deal, straighout refusing it is madness for the men that are fighting in ukraine right now. Even crazier because russians would take a ceasefire probably...

 

It's really good for the whole world to see this live. Everyone knows what they are up against.

Nothing gets lost in translation, those that want to dig in - can dig in. Those that wish to settle, 

now they evalute there respective positions.

 

Nothing gets filtered to the Ukrainians - who do not have a free press - so no bullshiting from

Zelensky is going to work.

 

It's very good for the Europeans to see this - now they can figure out how they would like to proceed.

 

All this open public display did was 2 things:

 

1- Speed up the process to settle or not settle

2- Demonstrate to the American people that Trump is going to keep his promise to his citizens.

[Sweet]

10 minutes ago, Luke said:

That was some small battalion that tried to rush it. You have to remember, russia also didnt send their best men in this war so far, if you ask russians, they mostly send men that are poor from the countryside or these wagner legionaires that are basically prisoners. Then now they are using north-koreans, all the poor and powerless guys are at the front, not the educated and wealthier middle-classes of the bigger cities. Total mobilization didnt happen yet, meanwhile in ukraine basically there is no middle-class anymore and selensky takes every joe no matter your status to the front.

That’s like saying the troops at the front of the Nazi Blitzkrieg was only a small number of men - which would be true but it misses the point.
 

There were a significant number of troops and armour on the road to Kyiv.  Russia tried their own Blitzkrieg and failed.

 

It wasn’t just there that they were pushed back on the outskirts of Kyiv, all across the front during the first 18 months the Russians were pushed back.

 

Ukraine is going to have man-power issues but it’s not true that every Joe is at the front.  Quite the opposite.  Zelenskyy has deliberately tried to keep younger people away from the front line.  Their military prefer to send older men instead with lots of experience in soldiering.  Some at the front are younger, but for the most part the young are NOT at the front.  I believe the average age is about 40.

[cubsfan]

1 hour ago, changegonnacome said:

 

Short version - after today you'd really have to ask yourself  @cubsfan - why the hell would Putin negotiate now when his enemies are at each other's throats in about every way it's possible to be?

 

 

That is a great question.

 

Answer: Because they can come together as fast as they fell apart. Zelensky has a nation to save. Europe has a continent to save. These allies are not stupid. They know they are more powerful united than separate. That's totally obvious. If they do not realize this - then they have the wrong leaders in place. Nothing will get them focused like conflict.

 

 

 

 

[VersaillesinNY]

'You were given the choice between war and dishonour. You chose dishonour, and you will have war.'

Winston Churchill — To Neville Chamberlain' - Munich Agreement 1938

 

"It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal"

Henry Kissinger

 

Reporter to Zelensky: “Why don't you wear a suit? You’re at the highest level in this country’s office…”
Zelensky: “I will wear a costume after the war ends.”

[adesigar]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum

 

 

[Sweet]

1 minute ago, adesigar said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum

 

 

I mean Ukraine should just accept peace now, and then Europe should respect the agreement in the same way Russia has… 

[Xerxes]

47 minutes ago, backtothebeach said:

Don't just watch short or edited clips, or worse, coverage by certain media outlets.

This Forbes channel is doing a good job recently just publishing original content without commentary.

If you have time, here is the raw footage of the whole thing in context:
 

I watched the whole thing in its entirety.
 

What was exactly Zelenskyy game plan knowing that he was going into the lion’ den. He and his team must have gamed out the different scenarios and people (Vance) before flying to DC. 
 

I don’t get it. 

[cubsfan]

11 minutes ago, Xerxes said:

I watched the whole thing in its entirety.
 

What was exactly Zelenskyy game plan knowing that he was going into the lion’ den. He and his team must have gamed out the different scenarios and people (Vance) before flying to DC. 
 

I don’t get it. 

 

Yeah, he took a risk. He thought he could strong-arm the President and Vice President.

Mission failed. Not a good move when your country desperately needs the help.

He spoke to the President like he ran the show - and unfortunately got a well deserved beatdown for his total lack of gratitude and grace. 

 

Because of his failure here, a lot more Ukrainians are going to die, while he comes to his senses that he has little leverage to dictate terms to the United States.

[james22]

 

[Parsad]

7 hours ago, Luke said:

Wow. That was truly historic and to me it made perfect sense. Selensky comes into the oval office with the old Biden Era mindset and faces a stone-hard wall. Trump and Vance were on point, high respect here. There is no chance Selensky is winning, there is no chance he is winning back these territories without US support. Germany has a new government where the new coalition has no 2/3s majority to lower the debt break and increase military funding and the AFD+Left will block further war investments.

 

Game over. Selensky has to face reality, get the best deal he can, step down and then have new elections.

 

Vance actually instigated the whole thing.  He should have kept his mouth shut and let the President and Zelenskyy talk.  Vance put Zelenskyy in a defensive position insinuating that Ukraine has never tried diplomacy.  Zelenskyy was a guest of the White House, Vance should have taken a back seat to the two leaders.  Cheers!

[Parsad]

6 hours ago, cubsfan said:

 

Don't confuse these guys with facts. It never works.

 

They want war, not peace.

 

They tried peace with Hitler...did it work?  You invade another sovereign nation, there is going to be destruction.  The point is to make sure the destruction ends there, and not further into Europe or again 5, 10, 20 years down the road.  Is the U.S. worried about Iraq?  Afghanistan?  Japan?  Where was peace then?

 

Cheers!

[Parsad]

6 hours ago, Spekulatius said:

The USA is turning into an imperialist power. @kab60 Mark my words, but Trump is serious about Greenland too. He want wants to be the president who makes America larger on terms of land mass.

 

Imperialist powers think in terms of land mass first and # of people second . And imperialist likes to deal with other imperialist who think the same way. Thats now an imperialist trifecta of China, Russia, USA and soon India I think.

 

Those not on above list (Europe, Canada etc ) need to do something or they become colonies to be pushed around.

 

What a time to be alive.

 

Trump is already the most powerful President in U.S. history.  What worries me is the future.  Trump espouses nationalistic, isolated beliefs, but he's willing to take advantage of any nation faster than anyone.  He'll use all of his economic and judicial power to get people to bend the knee...when does he decide he wants to use military power as well.

 

People were laughing at me 10 years ago when I worried about him getting into power or that there could be civil discord and massive division in the U.S.  Now, I'm not worried so much about Trump, but who his successor will be, and I think I've figured out the front runner.  If that person somehow manages to take power at some point, and he may not have to if he already controls some of the most crucial and valuable components of the global economy, then we may simultaneously be also creating the most powerful human being in history.  Fuck Genghis Khan or Alexander the Great...Musk is slowly positioning himself to be the Emperor of humanity. 

 

The next 50 years may be great for the world or it could be sheer catastrophe!  I probably won't be here to witness it...thank God!  Cheers!

[Ghost]

I enjoyed Vance's comment.  Have you said "Thank you" to this administration.  This administration wants to offer nothing and take a generation of Ukraine mineral wealth, when Ukraine is at its weakest.  Thank you Mr. Trump.

 

 

[Xerxes]

12 minutes ago, Parsad said:

 

Vance actually instigated the whole thing.  He should have kept his mouth shut and let the President and Zelenskyy talk.  Vance put Zelenskyy in a defensive position insinuating that Ukraine has never tried diplomacy.  Zelenskyy was a guest of the White House, Vance should have taken a back seat to the two leaders.  Cheers!

 

Unless the Constitution is changed (unlikely) to allow a third presidential term, Vance is the defacto heir, not to the political movement, but to the office of presidency and its constitutional power. 
 

He is stepping out of the shadows. 
 

Anyone remembers how Deng Xianping wielded immense power in the 1980s without having any office or title. That could be Trump 4 years from now, with Vance as the president. But he has to win that on his own merit. 

[Xerxes]

15 minutes ago, Parsad said:

 

They tried peace with Hitler...did it work?  You invade another sovereign nation, there is going to be destruction. 

We also tried with Stalin, Saddam, Pinochet and Mao. it was transactional and worked for the duration of quid pro quo. 
 

While I disagree with the approach that the Trump administration is taking with Ukraine, this whole Munich/Hitler analogy is getting overused and tiresome. 
 

The same “survivorship bias” that applies to stocks also applies to historical analogies. Don’t always go with Munich/Hitler, and ignore all other madmen we (West) had a wink-wink understanding with. 

[Hektor]

1 hour ago, Xerxes said:

What was exactly Zelenskyy game plan knowing that he was going into the lion’ den. He and his team must have gamed out the different scenarios and people (Vance) before flying to DC. 
 

I don’t get it. 

The more I read about this event, I feel Zelensky pulled a master class in negotiation. He pulled out of a negotiation where the terms did not meet his needs. Does anyone else feel this way?