Russia-Ukrainian War - Political

[cubsfan]

1 minute ago, Hektor said:

The more I read about this event, I feel Zelensky pulled a master class in negotiation. He pulled out of a negotiation where the terms did not meet his needs. Does anyone else feel this way?

 

He certainly did if he can win the war or convince the Europeans to carry the war burden of men and materials.

 

We wish him luck with a high stakes gamble.

[Xerxes]

2 minutes ago, Hektor said:

The more I read about this event, I feel Zelensky pulled a master class in negotiation. He pulled out of a negotiation where the terms did not meet his needs. Does anyone else feel this way?

I don’t think it was a masterclass. But he is brave to enter the lion’ den, and pull that stunt. 
 

At least he has full clarity and will come back as a hero. And for a change just like how European had to scramble to get off Russian natural gas before the winter of 2023, they will perform some miracles. 
 

Trump is also correct in the following: the path of just dumping military hardware and money and expecting a material change in the war is idiotic at best.

 

Trump is just a realist stating the obvious. 

[Hektor]

27 minutes ago, Parsad said:

Is the U.S. worried about Iraq?  Afghanistan?

I feel these adventures are resulting in the push for peace by this president. Many kids born in the US after 9/11 went to fight wars in distant lands that started before their birth and did not come back. A good majority of their communities are the current president’s constituents, I feel. He has been clear about not going on these adventures even during the previous term.

 

I feel that if the fighting continues and Ukraine does not have man power, US will be involved directly sooner or later.

[Parsad]

22 minutes ago, Xerxes said:

We also tried with Stalin, Saddam, Pinochet and Mao. it was transactional and worked for the duration of quid pro quo. 
 

While I disagree with the approach that the Trump administration is taking with Ukraine, this whole Munich/Hitler analogy is getting overused and tiresome. 
 

The same “survivorship bias” that applies to stocks also applies to historical analogies. Don’t always go with Munich/Hitler, and ignore all other madmen we (West) had a wink-wink understanding with. 

 

And like stocks, you also look for the outlier event...the one that no one expects.  Hitler was that outlier event...that's why it's referred to over and over again.  A lesson learned...no?  Cheers!

[Xerxes]

4 minutes ago, Parsad said:

 

And like stocks, you also look for the outlier event...the one that no one expects.  Hitler was that outlier event...that's why it's referred to over and over again.  A lesson learned...no?  Cheers!

Yes definitely. 
 

That said, if the Soviet Union was based in Central Europe and Nazi Germany where Russia is (reverse their geographical location) we would have allied ourselves with Hitler to fight off Stalin. 
 

And in 1945 Allied meetings, it would have been Roosevelt, Churchill and Hitler in the pictures. 
 

Point being, it is not about a person.
 

Germany had to be brought down as a military power, as it was threatening Western Europe due to its proximity. 
 

There was no other choice. Just geopolitics.
 

The same geopolitics that had Nixon and Kissinger sit down with Mao, (another genocidal character) 

[Xerxes]

As far as Russia is concerned on this fiasco in the Oval Office, is it really a win for them ?

 

Definitely a PR win, and a long term win in terms of US disengagement, but they are NOT getting a subjugated Zelenskyy either. Instead they are getting a soon to be defiant Europe (a day later and a dollar short), and a defiant Zelenskyy. 
 

Is that a win or not a win ? Time will tell but I don’t think that is a clear win for Russia. 

[Mephistopheles]

1 hour ago, Ghost said:

I enjoyed Vance's comment.  Have you said "Thank you" to this administration.  This administration wants to offer nothing and take a generation of Ukraine mineral wealth, when Ukraine is at its weakest.  Thank you Mr. Trump.

 

 

It’s a cult. Vance himself called Trump Hitler but then he joined the ass kissing. “Say thank you to the king”

Don’t waste mental energy arguing with cultists. Just sit back and invest accordingly and accept these moments as a fact of life.

[Xerxes]

Rubio on CNN

 

 

[changegonnacome]

39 minutes ago, Luke said:

Trump and Vance want a settlement now

They want it so badly - they look and smell desperate….when has looking desperate headed into a negotiation ever been the best strategy?

 

Regardless based on the last few weeks relations between the US, EU & Ukraine - impending trade wars, accusations of ungratefulness, press conference melt downs….twinned with Russia’s current undoubted artillery and man power advantage’s on the battlefield….you really do have to ask yourself why would Putin acquiesce to US desires for a peace deal???…..unless it was deeply deeply favorable to the Russian’s….and that type of deal would be so deeply embarrassing to Trump the ‘deal maker’ that I can’t see him signing it.

 

So as I’ve said - why the hell would

Putin agree to anything right now….he’s the upper hand on the battlefield and his opponents are fighting amongst themselves like kids on international TV. Think of it from his point of view - at a minimum you put this so called ‘alliance’ through the meat grinder of at least one more spring/summer/fall offensive of defeats on the battlefield, take another 5-10% of Ukraine before you agree to give back anything….in say early 2026 just as the incumbent Republican’s in Congress have to head back to their constituents to explain why the forever wars are still going on for forever and Trump didn’t solve Ukraine on Day One like he said he would. 

[Stuart D]

39 minutes ago, Xerxes said:

Rubio on CNN

 

 

Thanks for posting.

[cubsfan]

1 hour ago, Mephistopheles said:

It’s a cult. Vance himself called Trump Hitler but then he joined the ass kissing. “Say thank you to the king”

Don’t waste mental energy arguing with cultists. Just sit back and invest accordingly and accept these moments as a fact of life.

 

The cult is trying to end the war.  The fools want it to continue.

 

[james22]

What's he sorry for?

 

 

[Parsad]

1 hour ago, james22 said:

What's he sorry for?

 

 

 

Same as rape victims...skirt was too short, she had lipstick on, she was drinking, she wanted it!  She should be apologizing to him!

 

Ukraine gets fucked over by Russia with a third of their country decimated and the U.S. wants an apology for breach of etiquette! 

 

Zelenskyy himself knows clearly well that if there is no deal for peace, no U.S. support, he will also die at Putin's hands...probably sooner, rather than later.  Yet, Vance and Rubio keep talking about disrespect and that Zelenskyy probably doesn't want a deal. 

 

So of course he's apologizing...to save his people, to save his country and ultimately his life and probably his wife's life.  Cheers! 

[Charlie]

4 hours ago, Parsad said:

Vance actually instigated the whole thing.  He should have kept his mouth shut and let the President and Zelenskyy talk.  Vance put Zelenskyy in a defensive position insinuating that Ukraine has never tried diplomacy.  Zelenskyy was a guest of the White House, Vance should have taken a back seat to the two leaders.  Cheers!

+1 

 

Everything was good, until Vance began to talk.

Good cop, bad cop game?

Probably not, Vance should just shut up.

What a shame!

[ValueNation]

The US and the West have really screwed over the Ukrainians. It was their reassurances - Boris Johnson, Jake Sullivan in particular - that they would have his back if Zelensky stood up to Putin that really started this war. Putin was ready to negotiate from day one - but the US was not. This should be acknowledged. The lack of any historical context, responsibility and empathy is horrible. The world is changing fast, but we do not need to trample those who are already bleeding.

 

While I agree that it makes more sense for the US to be aligned with Russia to counterweight the rise of China, the way they are handling this is really deplorable. Hanging out your friends to dry like this will make others think twice about allying with the west in the future. The war does need to end, but taking advantage of the most vulnerable at their weakest is the mark of a bully. Putin is not Hitler - NATO expansion was definitely a huge issue - initially pushed by Condoleeza Rice and the neo-cons during the uni-polar moment when there was no serious great power challenge is at the root of the conflict, and led to the 2014 annexation of Crimea, which Obama and Trump #1 did nothing about. There's a lot of blame to go around.

 

 

 

[Grenville]

Definitely seems like we are on the cusp of nuclear war. What stops aggression, nukes…what stops Europe from sending over nukes to the frontline to battle Russian aggression, no more US, all that is left are nukes. Cheap solution but dire risk for everyone but that’s what we get with the art of the deal…

[james22]

1 hour ago, Parsad said:

Zelenskyy himself knows clearly well that if there is no deal for peace, no U.S. support, he will also die at Putin's hands...probably sooner, rather than later.  Yet, Vance and Rubio keep talking about disrespect and that Zelenskyy probably doesn't want a deal. 

 

So of course he's apologizing...to save his people, to save his country and ultimately his life and probably his wife's life.  Cheers! 

 

You didn't answer the question: what is he apologizing for?

 

He knew all you mention before the meeting.

 

He had ONE job: secure US support.

 

He failed.

 

[Sweet]

4 hours ago, Xerxes said:

As far as Russia is concerned on this fiasco in the Oval Office, is it really a win for them ?

 

Definitely a PR win, and a long term win in terms of US disengagement, but they are NOT getting a subjugated Zelenskyy either. Instead they are getting a soon to be defiant Europe (a day later and a dollar short), and a defiant Zelenskyy. 
 

Is that a win or not a win ? Time will tell but I don’t think that is a clear win for Russia. 

Yes, and I read it as probably a massive L for the US.  

 

The weird thing about Trump’s / MAGA world view is that they simultaneously wants to walk away from alliances and the burdens of global leadership, YET he expects the US to hold the same or more influence globally as before.  
 

That’s obviously not going to work.  
 

I get that the US want Europe to spend more of military and do more for Ukraine, but it’s also important to keep them firmly on your side.

 

This isn’t post-war WW2 Europe wrecked by war.  There will be no Suez style pressure that can force European powers to do as the US wants.  They can and should be able to stand on their own two feet.  
 

And there is a new rival in China.  If you are Japan, or Taiwan, or South Korea, or the Philippines - what’s your take on today’s events?  Do you feel you have a reliable partner in the US?

 

Putin and Xi must be pissing themselves laughing lol.

[Sweet]

1 hour ago, james22 said:

 

You didn't answer the question: what is he apologizing for?

 

He knew all you mention before the meeting.

 

He had ONE job: secure US support.

 

He failed.

 

I don’t think he is apologising.
 

He said he’s ‘sorry for this’ - the way the situation unfolded.

 

He didn’t say he was sorry for anything he did - which was to state his own views.

 

It’s also pretty clear with Trump and Vance he didn’t and was unlikely to get US support easily.  In fact it’s pretty clear that the support the US previously provided was over.

 

Vance also literally said he didn’t care what happened in Ukraine during the election campaign.

 

 

Edited Saturday at 08:22 AM by Sweet

[Parsad]

1 hour ago, ValueNation said:

The US and the West have really screwed over the Ukrainians. It was their reassurances - Boris Johnson, Jake Sullivan in particular - that they would have his back if Zelensky stood up to Putin that really started this war. Putin was ready to negotiate from day one - but the US was not. This should be acknowledged. The lack of any historical context, responsibility and empathy is horrible. The world is changing fast, but we do not need to trample those who are already bleeding.

 

While I agree that it makes more sense for the US to be aligned with Russia to counterweight the rise of China, the way they are handling this is really deplorable. Hanging out your friends to dry like this will make others think twice about allying with the west in the future. The war does need to end, but taking advantage of the most vulnerable at their weakest is the mark of a bully. Putin is not Hitler - NATO expansion was definitely a huge issue - initially pushed by Condoleeza Rice and the neo-cons during the uni-polar moment when there was no serious great power challenge is at the root of the conflict, and led to the 2014 annexation of Crimea, which Obama and Trump #1 did nothing about. There's a lot of blame to go around.

 

 

 

 

+1!  Cheers!

[Ulti]

https://warontherocks.com/2025/02/the-deep-strike-dodge-firepower-and-manpower-in-ukraines-war/

[james22]

16 minutes ago, Sweet said:

He didn’t say he was sorry for anything he did - which was to state his own views.

 

It’s also pretty clear with Trump and Vance he didn’t and was unlikely to get US support easily.

 

It was super easy to secure US support.

 

All he had to do was show up in a suit, say thanks, sign the (agreed upon) deal, share a meal, and take the win.

 

But he couldn't manage that.

 

Why not?

 

Because he's a grandstanding clown who forgot his dependency?

 

Because he doesn't want a peace deal that would end the graft?

[Sweet]

1 minute ago, james22 said:

 

It was super easy to secure US support.

 

All he had to do was show up in a suit, say thanks, sign the (agreed upon) deal, share a meal, and take the win.

 

But he couldn't manage that.

 

Why not?

 

Because he's a grandstanding clown who forgot his dependency?

 

Because he doesn't want a peace deal that would end the graft?

Wtf are you talking about James.

 

What support was on offer from the US?

 

Both sides agreed that there were no security guarantees made to Ukraine.

 

Trump isn’t going to give weapons for free anymore, that’s abundantly clear, they can still be bought though.

 

So what be specific, what exact support was on offer?

[Grenville]

Lol, like showing up in a suit matters....lol...please show me a time where he showed up in a suit. This from the president who launched a meme coin to grift off his supporters...time to look in the mirror

[Grenville]

Its like all rationality goes out the window and we revert to talking points from MTG boyfriend...lol