Political Posts

[Cigarbutt]

2 hours ago, Gregmal said:

Because the response to Milu followed a familiar pattern. 
 

He basically said, ok I’m not getting into it, let’s just drop it. Maybe because it’s already been debated, or maybe because we all know that “let’s audit the sources” opening salvo is just the first line to then a predictable series of events that have two outcomes….1) like he did, walk away without a source and then have it be presented as if his lack of willingness to produce a response denigrates what he stated. Or 2) go down the well known hole of a) dispute the source and play the my source is better card, then b) present selected items from such “superior sources” as “facts” that always seem to support the pre existing and original content challenging narrative. 
 

So he didn’t bite and basically got 

 

 Which is again just a high levelly articulated way on tying his position to that of being an uneducated dunce.

 

I think it’s fair for people to have little to no trust in the traditional experts after what happened. And in general think the greatest tragedy of it all is the degree to which a lot of these people doubled down on traditional real world lacking evidence because they were, for one reason or another, tied to a side. Most people didn’t have sides, they just wanted their constitutional rights to be respected. 
 

The most honest answer I got from a medical professional or academic researcher on COVID, fairly early in the pandemic, was, “heck if I know. Everyone’s going to get exposed to it and there’s not much that can be done about that. Over time these things tend to get more transmissible and less lethal. But they’re already fairly confident they have a vaccine and if you’re under 50 it’s probably not going to kill you, but don’t hold me to any of that”….far cry from all the pontificating about levels of masking, necessity for locking people down and taking away their livelihoods and doubling and tripling down on these positions despite not much besides theory underpinning them. 

Opinion: it's not fundamentally a "sorry i hurt your feelings" or a level of "education" question, it's how to argue based on underlying facts and reason. Rhetorics and all can be sort of fun but there has to be some kind of mutual agreement about basic facts, about rules of engagement. 

The underlying question was: can 'restrictions' have a positive effect on a communicable disease?

And, because of tribal limitations, it seems impossible to start from solid grounds before gyrating into the abyss of poor arguments and magical thinking.

-----

Compare the US, Sweden and Denmark (the 51st state compares to Denmark BTW).

The areas under the excess curves are significant because they are large and because they are a tip-of-the-iceberg proxy for disease burden.

Sweden chose a relatively less restrictive path but paid a human price. Opinion: they openly discussed initially the risks and acknowledged the consequences after (the severity of which 'they' the experts did not fully expect).

Said kindly, the US ("you") did much more poorly from a disease burden point of view. I know many differences here including a sicker and heavier population but a significant part of the poor performance was the very unusual inability to cooperate through constructive discussions, as seen in the recent exchanges here.

-----

What should be even more of concern (opinion) is that, despite the very poor disease burden performance, the US, by far exceptional here among 'rich' countries, paid a very large debt-funded cost for this result.

 

During the COVID-19 pandemic, the United States saw a significantly higher increase in expenditures relative to its GDP compared to Denmark and Sweden, mainly due to a large discretionary stimulus. The Scandinavian countries relied more on existing welfare systems and targeted measures, resulting in a much lower percentage increase. 

 

Comparative expenditures during COVID-19

 

Country	Estimated COVID-19 Fiscal Spending (% of GDP)	Nature of Response	Key Statistics and Findings
United States	Over 19% Early stimulus estimated at 11.5%	Massive discretionary stimulus. The US passed multiple large relief packages, including transfers to individuals and businesses (such as the Paycheck Protection Program), direct government purchases, and tax provisions.	Highest increase among these nations. The US experienced one of the highest increases in public social spending among OECD countries, with an increase of 6 percentage points from 2019 to 2020.Large demand impulse. In 2021, the US demand impulse from fiscal policy was almost four times larger than in the Euro area.Higher deficit. The discretionary spending alone added over 11% to the 2019 GDP.
Denmark	4.5% in 2020	Targeted support using existing systems. Denmark used its large fiscal space to provide rapid and targeted support to firms and households, cushioning the economic shock. Measures included a wage support scheme to prevent layoffs and large-scale, though not fully used, emergency packages.	Contained economic contraction. Denmark's rapid action led to one of the mildest economic contractions in Europe.Lowest increase among these nations. From 2019 to 2020, Denmark saw an increase of less than 1 percentage point in its public social spending-to-GDP ratio, the lowest of the three nations compared.
Sweden	~4% in 2020 ~4.5% in 2021	Moderate, less restrictive approach. Sweden opted for a less restrictive public health approach and initially relied on voluntary behavior changes. Its government offered substantial liquidity support and loan guarantees for businesses, but its fiscal spending was more moderate compared to the US.	Small increase. Like Denmark, Sweden's public social spending-to-GDP ratio increased by less than 1 percentage point from 2019 to 2020.Limited spending, large liquidity support. Sweden's direct spending was limited, but it provided significant liquidity support to businesses. While this support temporarily boosted public finances, the overall effect on GDP was lower than in the US.

Edited October 29, 2025 by Cigarbutt
spelling

[Mephistopheles]

53 minutes ago, Gregmal said:

I’ll try!

 

So, I don’t really wanna work anymore, so can we get behind raising taxes on people who do and finding ways to sent some of that to me?

 

My kid also can’t compete with his male peers, if he has some kinda weird “feeling”(or at least claims to), can we let him beat up on the girls? 
 

And while we re at it, I kinda just don’t like how I feel when right wing loonies make jokes, so yall wanna get together and do some arts and crafts before bum rushing a police precinct and rioting? But only after we ve officially confirmed everyone’s gone 3 weeks without showering and we can confirm(without checking IDs) that we got 3-5 TQs in the group?

 

lol! I said you gotta make the best argument, not the worst

[Marco Van Basten]

4 hours ago, dwy000 said:

Thats not what he said at all.  His argument is that there's too many resources focused on climate when it can now be better spent on disease and poverty.  Its a somewhat tongue in cheek response to the US cutting aid and investment in disease research. 

Gates is a hypocrite.  He flies by private jet, so does his ex-wife and three kids but he cares about climate change!  If you do, ride a bloody donkey!  Jesus did it, so are you better, you little hypocrite?  

[DooDiligence]

4 hours ago, Mephistopheles said:

I've got a fun idea. You know how Charlie Munger said (paraphrasing) that in any argument you should be able to make the opposing point as good as your opponent? 

 

Perhaps we should switch sides for a day (or an hour), how fun would that be? Cubs and Greg making the TDS case, and LC, DooDiligence et al arguing for the cult! 

 

I'm in! Trump is a golden GOD and anyone who thinks otherwise should be sent to a concentration camp.

[adesigar]

Americas loss. 

 

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/top-researchers-consider-leaving-u-s-amid-funding-cuts-the-science-world-is-ending

[DooDiligence]

41 minutes ago, adesigar said:

Americas loss. 

 

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/top-researchers-consider-leaving-u-s-amid-funding-cuts-the-science-world-is-ending

 

Leftist propaganda. Donald Trump will Make Americans Geniuses Again.

 

 

Get your copy today and support our most treasured resource, Donald J. Trump

 

https://www.amazon.com/TRUMP-ART-GENIUS-Businessman-President/dp/B0D2VBJZPG

[Mephistopheles]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/us-citizen-assaulted-border-patrol-chicago-halloween-parade-b2853988.html?fbclid=IwdGRjcANv6U9leHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHs8HtSvz2L2cwaMS1IymPiuJXfCtZMnyDbZ2astZINr7C0Xgn1SaKSGY7cud_aem_B2Saoqve1gOR99-e_KWfXQ#3iefowaa6mt2e6e0naz3p6luu5ojlhb39
 

I’m pretty sure Obama deported more people per year than Trump (don’t quote me), but at the very least it is close.

 

I wonder how many in the cult know that? Not that they’d care. Their erection comes not from the deportations themselves but from the brutal and inhumane way the ICE gestapo treat people. 
 

The gestapo has finally started appearing in my city; will report back if I get slammed to the ground and taken into custody.

[Parsad]

41 minutes ago, Mephistopheles said:

 

The gestapo has finally started appearing in my city; will report back if I get slammed to the ground and taken into custody.

 

Problem is, we'll never know you were taken with these guys...just shuffled somewhere with no due process!  Cheers!

[Sweet]

1 hour ago, Mephistopheles said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/us-citizen-assaulted-border-patrol-chicago-halloween-parade-b2853988.html?fbclid=IwdGRjcANv6U9leHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHs8HtSvz2L2cwaMS1IymPiuJXfCtZMnyDbZ2astZINr7C0Xgn1SaKSGY7cud_aem_B2Saoqve1gOR99-e_KWfXQ#3iefowaa6mt2e6e0naz3p6luu5ojlhb39
 

I’m pretty sure Obama deported more people per year than Trump (don’t quote me), but at the very least it is close.

 

I wonder how many in the cult know that? Not that they’d care. Their erection comes not from the deportations themselves but from the brutal and inhumane way the ICE gestapo treat people. 
 

The gestapo has finally started appearing in my city; will report back if I get slammed to the ground and taken into custody.

There was a whole discussion about this earlier in this thread.  Equally cultish is taking these figures at face value, and not bothering to read into the context and differences - which are fairly obvious with even a few minutes of research.

[NnnnotSoSmart]

2 hours ago, Mephistopheles said:

The gestapo has finally started appearing in my city; will report back if I get slammed to the ground and taken into custody.

Think you'll be fine if you don't impede Federal Agents from enforcing US immigration laws.  You may want to stay out of the general area as ANTIFA have been flinging feces on said  agents.  I'm not speaking about the verbal "feces" that are being flung on this board. 

Edited October 30, 2025 by NnnnotSoSmart

[Sweet]

1 hour ago, NnnnotSoSmart said:

Think you'll be fine if you don't impede Federal Agents from enforcing US immigration laws.  You may want to stay out of the general area as ANTIFA have been flinging feces on said  agents.  I'm not speaking about the verbal "feces" that are being flung on this board. 

 

Apparently not enforcing the law is good, but  deporting those who broke federal law to get into your country makes you the Gestapo.  And imagine thinking those who disagree with you are the extremists.

 

 

[John Hjorth]

1 hour ago, NnnnotSoSmart said:

...  I'm not speaking about the verbal "feces" that are being flung on this board. 

 

@NnnnotSoSmart,

 

I diden't get that line, and had to fire up Google Translate. Then got it. I personally think a little friendly food fight wood be to prefer. lol.

[KJP]

18 hours ago, Cigarbutt said:

Said kindly, the US ("you") did much more poorly from a disease burden point of view. I know many differences here including a sicker and heavier population but a significant part of the poor performance was the very unusual inability to cooperate through constructive discussions, as seen in the recent exchanges here.

 

 

I'm not sure this is accurate.  In the United States progressives, liberals, intellectuals, academics, etc. are almost uniformly  and fundamentally Rawlsian, so they look at the data you have posted and think the solution is obvious:  Everyone should accept restriction regime X to protect the most vulnerable.  But there are also a very large number of Americans who are not Rawlsians.  I don't think you'd go so far as to call them hardline libertarians, but they are much more philosophically opposed to the type of redistribution (broadly defined) implied by a Rawlsian theory of distributive justice.  

 

I think many intellectuals/progressives misunderstand or refuse to acknowledge that difference (or classify non-Rawlsian belief as "bad" or "evil"), so they think people who disagree with them are just dumb or ill-informed.  This, in my view, is the essence of the mantra "Trust the Science".  The implication of that phrase is that the answer is obvious once you understand the facts.  But that simply is not so.  Instead, you need to apply some underlying theory of distributive justice (or ethics or morality or whatever you want to call it) to the facts to decide what to do.  That is a discussion anyone can engage in, not one reserved for medical doctors or epidemiologists.  

 

I agree that "constructive discussions" are more likely to get at truth and understanding among those who disagree than sarcasm, memes, etc.  But I'm not sure that, in this instance, they would have led to agreement when the parties are bringing fundamentally different ethical premises to the discussion.  And most discussions fail to get at these fundamental underlying theories that are really driving beliefs about what to do, so the participants end up talking past each other.  You can see that on this thread, in addition to all of the other issues you have noted.

Edited October 30, 2025 by KJP

[LC]

Just getting terrorists off the streets:

 

 

[LC]

Turns out the guy in the black sweater is a law abiding american citizen. Can't say the same for the goonsquad.

 

Do you think they wear face masks because they're not used to the delicious scent of cooking with south american spices? 

 

[Cigarbutt]

13 minutes ago, KJP said:

I'm not sure this is accurate...

"they" are much more philosophically opposed to the type of redistribution (broadly defined) implied by... 

so the participants end up talking past each other.  You can see that on this thread, in addition to all of the other issues you have noted.

Thank you. That was very helpful (thought provoking, helping to focus where i'm wrong etc).

What to do then if one is a leaning right fiscal conservative with moderate and flexible views on social aspects observing, with interest, the critical creative/destructive transition going on in the leading world power led by agents promoting polarization and appealing to the worse evils of our nature?

Is this a downward spiral or the movement of a pendulum or else?

Wasn't Abraham Lincoln a reasonable model here? Wasn't he able to navigate a difficult period bridging ideals with the general public (with sometimes very obvious incoherences and even contradictions)?

Disclosure: A large part of my investable assets are denominated in a "foreign" currency, the great USD, and i'm getting to think that this obvious choice is becoming less and less obvious.

[DooDiligence]

More liberal claptrap.

 

Trust in the process.

We are here to help you.

Get onboard or get left behind.

 

[KJP]

12 minutes ago, Cigarbutt said:

Thank you. That was very helpful (thought provoking, helping to focus where i'm wrong etc).

What to do then if one is a leaning right fiscal conservative with moderate and flexible views on social aspects observing, with interest, the critical creative/destructive transition going on in the leading world power led by agents promoting polarization and appealing to the worse evils of our nature?

Is this a downward spiral or the movement of a pendulum or else?

Wasn't Abraham Lincoln a reasonable model here? Wasn't he able to navigate a difficult period bridging ideals with the general public (with sometimes very obvious incoherences and even contradictions)?

Disclosure: A large part of my investable assets are denominated in a "foreign" currency, the great USD, and i'm getting to think that this obvious choice is becoming less and less obvious.

 

These issues don't seem unique to the United States.  They also don't seem new or unique for the United states; we have a long history of vitriolic politics. 

 

Perhaps I'm naive, but I remain an optimist because I think there is still a large centrist core in the country and they still provide the government with necessary feedback via elections.  The fact that elections still have consequences in the US is a good thing, in my view.  And I don't think we're going to stop having elections.

[Marco Van Basten]

8 hours ago, Mephistopheles said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/us-citizen-assaulted-border-patrol-chicago-halloween-parade-b2853988.html?fbclid=IwdGRjcANv6U9leHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHs8HtSvz2L2cwaMS1IymPiuJXfCtZMnyDbZ2astZINr7C0Xgn1SaKSGY7cud_aem_B2Saoqve1gOR99-e_KWfXQ#3iefowaa6mt2e6e0naz3p6luu5ojlhb39
 

I’m pretty sure Obama deported more people per year than Trump (don’t quote me), but at the very least it is close.

 

I wonder how many in the cult know that? Not that they’d care. Their erection comes not from the deportations themselves but from the brutal and inhumane way the ICE gestapo treat people. 
 

The gestapo has finally started appearing in my city; will report back if I get slammed to the ground and taken into custody.

You clearly don't know what Gestapo was.  If ICE was Gestapo, you'd be lined against a wall and shot just for criticizing them.  

[Marco Van Basten]

1 hour ago, Cigarbutt said:

Thank you. That was very helpful (thought provoking, helping to focus where i'm wrong etc).

What to do then if one is a leaning right fiscal conservative with moderate and flexible views on social aspects observing, with interest, the critical creative/destructive transition going on in the leading world power led by agents promoting polarization and appealing to the worse evils of our nature?

Is this a downward spiral or the movement of a pendulum or else?

Wasn't Abraham Lincoln a reasonable model here? Wasn't he able to navigate a difficult period bridging ideals with the general public (with sometimes very obvious incoherences and even contradictions)?

Disclosure: A large part of my investable assets are denominated in a "foreign" currency, the great USD, and i'm getting to think that this obvious choice is becoming less and less obvious.

Abraham Lincoln in my opinion was a horrible model.  Under him, the country plunged into a civil war that costs hundreds of thousands of lives.  Yes, slavery, which has existed since time immemorial is evil.  However, why did you need a war to abolish it?  He did not even try to bribe the South - we will pay you twice the market rate for every slave you free, however every single one slave in the South must be freed for this to work or the deal is off?  Why wasn't this tried?  

[LC]

My friend, put gently I think the accuracy of your post could be improved with a review of the historical record...

 

If you're interested:

https://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/disp_textbook.cfm?smtID=2&psid=3059

 

[Red Lion]

12 minutes ago, Marco Van Basten said:

However, why did you need a war to abolish it? 

And the emancipation proclamation didn’t even occur until 2 years into the war. An interesting little tidbit that gets swept under the rug. I wonder if it ever would have happened at all if the union won the war quickly. 

[Mephistopheles]

10 hours ago, Sweet said:

There was a whole discussion about this earlier in this thread.  Equally cultish is taking these figures at face value, and not bothering to read into the context and differences - which are fairly obvious with even a few minutes of research.

 

7 hours ago, Sweet said:

 

Apparently not enforcing the law is good, but  deporting those who broke federal law to get into your country makes you the Gestapo.  And imagine thinking those who disagree with you are the extremists.

 

 

 

 

Deporting illegals is great

Treating people inhumanely is awful

Denying Constitutional rights (for illegals or for US citizens) is terrifying

 

All of the above can be true all at once

 

And yes there have been enough documented cases of the cruelty with a few minutes of research

 

[Sweet]

25 minutes ago, Mephistopheles said:

 

 

 

Deporting illegals is great

Treating people inhumanely is awful

Denying Constitutional rights (for illegals or for US citizens) is terrifying

 

All of the above can be true all at once

 

And yes there have been enough documented cases of the cruelty with a few minutes of research

 

I’m aware of some of these cases already because they have been posted in this thread.

 

Enough documented cases to what though - stop ICE doing their job?  Fairly call them Gestapo?

What is your point?

[Mephistopheles]

9 minutes ago, Sweet said:

I’m aware of some of these cases already because they have been posted in this thread.

 

Enough documented cases to what though - stop ICE doing their job?  Fairly call them Gestapo?

What is your point?

 

Well my point was in my original post that it's not about deportations but about the cruelty. If it was about deportations than Obama would be a MAGA hero. Villify one group of people to blame for all of life's miseries; is just one example amongst a myriad that shows we're on that authoritarian march. 

 

In a way I respect the diehard MAGAs, more so than the independents/moderates/"literally not seriously" folks who split hairs and bend over backwards to intellectualize these actions all the while missing the forest for the trees.

 

Not saying this towards you by any means. Appreciate the back and forth.

Edited October 30, 2025 by Mephistopheles