Political Posts

[Libs]

3 hours ago, changegonnacome said:

 

In one sentence - Zelensky kind of sums up how he contributed to getting his country into the desperate situation its in today...and it seems like the cause is his complete lack of pragmatism...the above is a nice sound bite..........but the reality is that independence & sovereignty.....are ideals that once they leap off the page are constrained by reality & realpolitik.....Ukraine is independent...in the same way that Canada is independent & free.....but like Ukraine, Canadian sovereignty is constrained by its geographic position & power dynamics of its neighbour.........for example......Canada is technically free to host Chinese military bases in Ottawa if it wishes.....in reality that can never happen....or it can happen but only temporarily....which is kind of the same thing.

 

Zelensky's extreme pivot to the West and outright rejection of the East....was a terribly poor demonstration of political leadership....pragmatism might be the single most important quality in a political leader.......idealism will get thousands of your fellow countrymen killed.

 

As we get further into this war.....with Russia making recent territorial gains into the Donbass.......while Ukraine drives tanks around empty fields a few hundred miles north in Kursk.......I hope we in the West help Zelensky with his pragmatism skills.......a small country sandwiched between two opposing political/military systems....should be eating pragmatism for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

 

You make some good points but I can't help reflecting that if Churchill had been this wise and pragmatic, England would have cut a deal with Hitler in 1941 to stay out of the war. The pressure to do so was almost overwhelming. But Churchill knew it would only buy time, and Germany would basically own England once it completed its other goals. 

 

Ukraine being 'pragmatic' at this point probably means slow suffocation and eventual extermination by Russia. But this move into Russia could change the equation. It makes Putin look really bad to his countrymen. I can't fault Zelensky for this action. I find it inspiring.

 

 

[John Hjorth]

5 minutes ago, Libs said:

 

You make some good points but I can't help reflecting that if Churchill had been this wise and pragmatic, England would have cut a deal with Hitler in 1941 to stay out of the war. The pressure to do so was almost overwhelming. But Churchill knew it would only buy time, and Germany would basically own England once it completed its other goals. 

 

Ukraine being 'pragmatic' at this point probably means slow suffocation and eventual extermination by Russia. But this move into Russia could change the equation. It makes Putin look really bad to his countrymen. I can't fault Zelensky for this action. I find it inspiring.

 

 

 

Thank you, very good post and points, @Libs ,

 

And with regard to values, what does Russia actually by now 'offer' to it's 'acquisition candidates' ? Personally, I do not see anything but eternal exploitation, not even with a long lense.

[Spekulatius]

Any deal with Putin will be no more than a temporary truce during which he plans his next move, imo.

 

I think it’s fallacy to believe Putin only wants the Donbas. 10 years ago, people though the same thing about the Crimea. The fight will continue in some way as long as he is there.

 

I do think the sanctions and isolation will degrade Russia into a North Korean hellhole over time, but it will take decades.

45 minutes ago, Libs said:

 

You make some good points but I can't help reflecting that if Churchill had been this wise and pragmatic, England would have cut a deal with Hitler in 1941 to stay out of the war. The pressure to do so was almost overwhelming. But Churchill knew it would only buy time, and Germany would basically own England once it completed its other goals. 

 

Ukraine being 'pragmatic' at this point probably means slow suffocation and eventual extermination by Russia. But this move into Russia could change the equation. It makes Putin look really bad to his countrymen. I can't fault Zelensky for this action. I find it inspiring.

 

 

It’s also not driving tanks through empty land. The incursion has disrupted life for hundred throws and of Russians in three oblasts, which have become a war zone with evacuations etc. Also, it seems now that up to 3000 Russian soldiers are trapped in a salient due to all the bridges being bombed with no way to go which means that Russia loses another chunk of land and perhaps an brigade worth of material and troops.

[Luke]

26 minutes ago, Spekulatius said:

I do think the sanctions and isolation will degrade Russia into a North Korean hellhole over time, but it will take decades.

It’s also not driving tanks through empty land. The incursion has disrupted life for hundred throws and of Russians in three oblasts, which have become a war zone with evacuations etc. Also, it seems now that up to 3000 Russian soldiers are trapped in a salient due to all the bridges being bombed with no way to go which means that Russia loses another chunk of land and perhaps an brigade worth of material and troops.

Which isolation? They ship all their produce, get tons of produce over third party countries? West even still imports russian natural resources over middle men. Then they have china as a powerhouse which can basically deliver anything. Dont you find "developing into a hellhole" quite the stretch? In the bigger russian countries this invasion by ukraine isn't talked about much, far away and very rural. But in the media they make it seem like its a huge victory.

 

 

[Luke]

28 minutes ago, Spekulatius said:

Any deal with Putin will be no more than a temporary truce during which he plans his next move, imo.

So whats the plan? Please be specific. Also for you @ValueArb What are you going to do about the situation, how can it be fixed realistically. Its easy to throw out some slogans but how are you gonna accomplish recovery of the eastern region while not further escalating the conflict leading into a total European war? Do you think civilians in the US would support sending US citizens and even more dollars to this country thousands of miles away?  

[Luke]

5 hours ago, changegonnacome said:

 

In one sentence - Zelensky kind of sums up how he contributed to getting his country into the desperate situation its in today...and it seems like the cause is his complete lack of pragmatism...the above is a nice sound bite..........but the reality is that independence & sovereignty.....are ideals that once they leap off the page are constrained by reality & realpolitik.....Ukraine is independent...in the same way that Canada is independent & free.....but like Ukraine, Canadian sovereignty is constrained by its geographic position & power dynamics of its neighbour.........for example......Canada is technically free to host Chinese military bases in Ottawa if it wishes.....in reality that can never happen....or it can happen but only temporarily....which is kind of the same thing.

 

Zelensky's extreme pivot to the West and outright rejection of the East....was a terribly poor demonstration of political leadership....pragmatism might be the single most important quality in a political leader.......idealism will get thousands of your fellow countrymen killed.

 

As we get further into this war.....with Russia making recent territorial gains into the Donbass.......while Ukraine drives tanks around empty fields a few hundred miles north in Kursk.......I hope we in the West help Zelensky with his pragmatism skills.......a small country sandwiched between two opposing political/military systems....should be eating pragmatism for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

This is exactly how I see it too. 

[Spekulatius]

@Luke I believe the right plan should be to supply Ukraine with everything it needs to succeed against Russia. To be specific I am talking a bit huge casualties in military as well as degrading Russian infrastructure with long range weapons (destroying the Kerch bridge would be a start) as well as blkcing  the Black Sea via long range weapons.

 

If Russia then continues, their economy will convert into a war economy which means everything will just be means to feed the military. I think this is something that is happening anyways but it could be forced much faster.

 

The Kursk incursion idea is to force Russia to act a to pull military units from the Donbas. So then the fight occurs on Ukraine’s terms not Russians.

 

It’s funny when people say Ukraine should just give up Donbas basically because Putin wants it. What if Putin says, the deal with a Russia to buy Alaska is invalid and unfair and Alaska really belongs to Russia. Who cares about Alaska anyways, is it worth risking the lives of  100,000 US troops there? Maybe Putin is right and Russia made an unfair deal,  after all they discovered it first?

If we give it back to him, it will be all he good. 

 

However, I make a bet that the US would be willing to sacrifice 100,000 troops if need to be to guard its territorial integrity. So will most other counties if forced.

Edited August 24, 2024 by Spekulatius

[Luke]

19 minutes ago, Spekulatius said:

@Luke I believe the right plan should be to supply Ukraine with everything it needs to succeed against Russia.

How can they succeed against a country that has 10x+ the vehicle count, 3x the military size, way more resources, and ultimately nuclear weapons? 

19 minutes ago, Spekulatius said:

To be specific I am talking a bit huge casualties in military as well as degrading Russian infrastructure with long range weapons (destroying the Kerch bridge would be a start) as well as blkcing  the Black Sea via long range weapons.

The more they threaten Russia or destroy infrastructure the more severe and cruel the response will be. 

19 minutes ago, Spekulatius said:

If Russia then continues, their economy will convert into a war economy which means everything will just be means to feed the military. I think this is something that is happening anyways but it could be forced much faster.

As will Ukraine's economy which is way smaller and in a way worse shape. Russia has a way longer breath. 

19 minutes ago, Spekulatius said:

The Kursk incursion idea is to force Russia to act a to pull military units from the Donbas. So then the fight occurs on Ukraine’s terms not Russians.

Okay, so Ukraine was not able to capture back eastern Ukraine so now they use their already small-sized military to get into rural Russia and do what? Why wouldn't Russia just move forward to Kiev in that case? What are they gonna do with kursk when they are leaving their life supply? 

19 minutes ago, Spekulatius said:

It’s funny when people say Ukraine should just give up Donbas basically because Putin wants it.

Literally nobody says that. Its about choices and realistic chances. They wont win against Russia without direct interference of foreign military. Are you fighting till nobodies left or cut a deal? 

19 minutes ago, Spekulatius said:

What if Putin says, the deal with a Russia to buy Alaska is invalid and unfair and Alaska really belongs to Russia. Who cares about Alaska anyways, is it worth risking the lives of  100,000 US troops there? Maybe Putin is right and Russia made an unfair deal,  after all they discovered it first?

If we give it back to him, it will be all he good. 

Totally different scenario and bad comparison. There is a realistic chance for many Ukrainians to survive and live if some adaptations are made. Only a mad men would fight till death. Nothing heroic about that either, more like suicide. 

Edited August 24, 2024 by Luke

[Luke]

I'm pretty sure that they will start using nuclear weapons in Ukraine if there is a serious risk that Russia will fall. What would be the Western response? 

[Spekulatius]

Nuclear Weapons are useless in this war scenario.

Material numbers  nothing until we discuss the quality of the material. it is not hard to find pre WW2 weapons like Moshin nagant rifles and 1938 horwitzers and Ws1 era Maxim guns.

 

I am not sure how long you have been around but Sowjet Russia has a history of making threats - the most famous one was Khrushevs  shoes scene at the United nations. You sort to know even they are losing when they do this stuff. This all bully playbook.

 

If you know what happens when Russia were to use nuclear weapons read up on NATO flexible response doctrine.

 

On Russian occupation, i have grandparents with first hand experience and let’s just say it’s worth a great deal of fighting not to get there.

Edited August 24, 2024 by Spekulatius

[cubsfan]

Ukraine is in a war they can not win. Absent the US & Europe aid, Ukraine would collapse immediately.  

 

If you are going to lose an entire generation of males to Russia - you ought to sue for peace - before you lose everything. If/when it becomes apparent that Europe & the US will have to commit troops to win - I think the allies will sing a different tune: settle this.

 

In settling the conflict - Russia largely keeps the gains it has. Ukraine gets armed to the teeth by its allies to protect what they have left. No one is happy, Putin saves face, declares victory. Zilensky has saved Ukraine from total defeat.

 

It definitely sucks. The time to have solved this crisis was 10+ years ago - by arming Ukraine and telegraphing to Putin a much higher cost of invasion. I can't speak for Europe, but Obama never took Putin seriously.

[Spekulatius]

The idea is to make this a war that Russia can’t win either. Smaller countries have defeated larger aggressor all the time because modern more have made asymmetrical easier. Sure Ukraine would falter without western aid, which is why it must continue to flow and even gets increased. With somebody else doing the fighting it’s chance to put the Russian bear back decades auch that they be dangerous  for a lot long time.

 

This is not a new situation either. All these things including nuclear threats are nothing new. Russia tried similar in the 70’s and 80’s with the SS20 nuclear ballistic rockets to put a wedge between Western Europe and the USA. Same BS suggestions to cave to Russians and appease them - is it worth dying in a nuclear war etc.

 

History quite rhymes itself. ass far as @Luke Russian friends are concerned, I  recommend they pack up their stuff and move elsewhere to Europe or the USA. Much more freedom and economic opportunities there. I know quite a few Russian emigrants from work and not all of them are engineers or PhD’s either, but they all have done well.  All of them came with basically nothing.

[Xerxes]

11 hours ago, Libs said:

 

You make some good points but I can't help reflecting that if Churchill had been this wise and pragmatic, England would have cut a deal with Hitler in 1941 to stay out of the war. The pressure to do so was almost overwhelming. But Churchill knew it would only buy time, and Germany would basically own England once it completed its other goals. 

 

Ukraine being 'pragmatic' at this point probably means slow suffocation and eventual extermination by Russia. But this move into Russia could change the equation. It makes Putin look really bad to his countrymen. I can't fault Zelensky for this action. I find it inspiring.

 

 

 

Churchill did cut a deal with an absolute tyrant in the 1940s, his name was Joseph Stalin. 
 

The Nazi were just lesser of two evils, and much closer threat. 
 

Churchill was pragmatic in that sense. 

[UK]

7 hours ago, Spekulatius said:

On Russian occupation, i have grandparents with first hand experience and let’s just say it’s worth a great deal of fighting not to get there.

+1

 

I laugh everytime when I hear (Russian propoganda?) that being in EU or NATO is something same or simillar of being in the USSR or Russian orbit. It is like comparing Valinor (or whatever is the place those elves live) and Mordor:). Even Elon Musk (the realist?) gets this:

 

"The US did conspicuous acts of kindness like the Berlin Airlift. And I think it’s always like, well, America’s done bad things. Well, of course America’s done bad things, but one needs to look at the whole track record and just generally, one sort of test would be how do you treat your prisoners at war? Or let’s say, no offense to the Russians, but let’s say you’re in Germany, it’s 1945, you’ve got the Russian Army coming one side and you’ve got the French, British and American Army’s coming the other side, who would you like to be just surrendered to? No country is [inaudible 00:27:58] perfect, but I recommend being a POW with the Americans. That would be my choice very strongly."

 

Edited August 25, 2024 by UK

[Luke]

Nuclear weapons are not useless in this scenario. They could quite literally destroy much of Ukraine with them, making Ukraine's protection irrelevant because it will be just a destroyed death zone. This is in the circumstance that some foreign military really threatens the existence of the country and government as you would like to see it happen @Spekulatius. I think you underestimate russia and vastly overestimate the usefulness of the west keeping up this war. Whats in our interest here? Russia was a very useful economic partner so why should we start destroying that country? 

 

If you come with a moral justification then you would have to close down a lot of mines in Africa, cut contact with Arabic countries too etc, its all so hypocritical but people become a moral philosopher when it is about Russia but don't open one eye if its about relations with other brutal regimes. The debate is everything but honest. 

 

Thanks for your suggestion to my friends though, they already live in Germany but they miss their homecountry quite badly and contrary to your negativity, they have quite a lot there which is worth living for. But I guess there will always be some Americans who would like to see russia and russias people developing into a "hellhole" and that would be "good" for everybody...this is a level of aggression that leads to further escalation instead of rebuilding contact and mutual trust. 

Edited August 25, 2024 by Luke

[Luke]

Its a fundamental disagreement on what russia is as a country. Putin for you, is similar to hitler, a psycho that will irrationally attack and move forward into other countries based on false facts and has to be eliminated and replaced with someone who does what he is told, preferably US orders. 

 

Its a fundamental disagreement on how useful ukraine is as a political asset compared to russia. Additionally some moral justifications are made how unethical it would be to not support the ukranians with every last dollar, ignoring all the other conflicts where we support and trade with these countries where we should, if we follow our logic, invest additional dollars to fight every regime we don't like. 

 

Its a fundamental disagreement on what is achievable in this war, how many resources the west needs to bring up while their own societies have poverty, dysfunctional schools, dysfunctional infrastructure etc. If your moral justification then is to help someone who is worse off, you would have to spend every tax dollar in Africa where million starve to death under brutal dictators and you would have to quite literally upsize military production to help any rebell group. 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2024 by Luke

[UK]

53 minutes ago, Luke said:

Its a fundamental disagreement on what russia is as a country. Putin for you, is similar to hitler, a psycho that will irrationally attack and move forward into other countries based on false facts and has to be eliminated and replaced with someone who does what he is told, preferably US orders. 

 

Its a fundamental disagreement on how useful ukraine is as a political asset compared to russia. Additionally some moral justifications are made how unethical it would be to not support the ukranians with every last dollar, ignoring all the other conflicts where we support and trade with these countries where we should, if we follow our logic, invest additional dollars to fight every regime we don't like. 

 

Its a fundamental disagreement on what is achievable in this war, how many resources the west needs to bring up while their own societies have poverty, dysfunctional schools, dysfunctional infrastructure etc. If your moral justification then is to help someone who is worse off, you would have to spend every tax dollar in Africa where million starve to death under brutal dictators and you would have to quite literally upsize military production to help any rebell group. 

 

 

Perhaps lots of choices / scenarious / risks is still possible, for Ukraine and more globally: 

 

https://www.wsj.com/politics/national-security/autocracies-china-russia-us-election-5dc42efb?mod=hp_lead_pos8

 

Edited August 25, 2024 by UK

[Luke]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/cia-maintains-12-secret-bases-212250351.html

 

The US’s Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) maintains 12 secret bases in Ukraine along the border with Russia, and last Thursday CIA chief William Burns made his 10th secret visit to Ukraine since the start of Russia's full-scale invasion.

 

Around 2016, the CIA began training an elite Ukrainian special forces unit known as Unit 2245, which captured Russian drones and communications equipment so that CIA technicians could reverse-engineer them and crack Moscow's encryption systems. According to the NYT, one of the officers in this unit was the current head of Defence Intelligence, Kyrylo Budanov.

 

According to The New York Times, the details of the partnership between the Ukrainian and American intelligence agencies have been a closely guarded secret for a decade.

 

The NYT reports that the partnership between the CIA and Defence Intelligence of Ukraine (DIU) began in late February 2014, when former president Viktor Yanukovych fled to Russia. This cooperation was proposed by Valentyn Nalyvaichenko, who became the head of the Security Service of Ukraine (SSU).

 

 

 

 

Ukraine is so deeply connected with the US and directly positioned next to Russia. I understand that this is a huge safety concern for the country. 

Edited August 25, 2024 by Luke

[Luke]

The US, throughout its history, had brutal attacks, against international law against many targets/countries. They are closely involved in Ukraine affairs to bring them closer to their umbrella. They operate unknown military locations in ukraine, very close to russias border, that, for what it's worth, can be used similarly to black sites used in the war of terror campaign. Combine that now with active financing for pro nato, eu politics in ukraine via the euro maidan:  https://jacobin.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-neo-nazis-russia-nato-crimea -->>>>

 

US officials, unhappy with the scuttled EU deal, saw a similar chance in the Maidan protests. Just two months before they broke out, the NED’s then president, pointing to Yanukovych’s European outreach, wrote that “the opportunities are considerable, and there are important ways Washington could help.” In practice, this meant funding groups like New Citizen, which the Financial Times reported “played a big role in getting the protest up and running,” led by a pro-EU opposition figure. Journalist Mark Ames discovered the organization had received hundreds of thousands of dollars from US democracy promotion initiatives.

 

All of this gets ignored. Russia has nothing to say, Ukraine can do what it wants and get more and more threatening weapons...you tell me where that leads...

[Luke]

But hey, there are, as I said before, Americans and others who would throw a party if China, Russia, North Korea, etc crumble and they could come and install a president who will pick up the phone from Washington. But expect some resistance...

 

My 2cts for what it's worth  Cheers! 

 

Edited August 25, 2024 by Luke

[UK]

43 minutes ago, Luke said:

The US, throughout its history, had brutal attacks, against international law against many targets/countries. They are closely involved in Ukraine affairs to bring them closer to their umbrella. They operate unknown military locations in ukraine, very close to russias border, that, for what it's worth, can be used similarly to black sites used in the war of terror campaign. Combine that now with active financing for pro nato, eu politics in ukraine via the euro maidan:  https://jacobin.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-neo-nazis-russia-nato-crimea -->>>>

 

US officials, unhappy with the scuttled EU deal, saw a similar chance in the Maidan protests. Just two months before they broke out, the NED’s then president, pointing to Yanukovych’s European outreach, wrote that “the opportunities are considerable, and there are important ways Washington could help.” In practice, this meant funding groups like New Citizen, which the Financial Times reported “played a big role in getting the protest up and running,” led by a pro-EU opposition figure. Journalist Mark Ames discovered the organization had received hundreds of thousands of dollars from US democracy promotion initiatives.

 

All of this gets ignored. Russia has nothing to say, Ukraine can do what it wants and get more and more threatening weapons...you tell me where that leads...

 

Luca, I am 100 percent sure, that most Ukrainians (maybe except for a few in Donbass) genuinelly wanted to move to the west, as they do now, even more, after all they have endured!

 

Also: "Well, of course America’s done bad things, but one needs to look at the whole track record"

 

Sorry, but this post of yours sounds to me like blaming democracy for its minuses (the worst system, except all the other), or Buffett, for not giving up 1 or whatever percent of his net worth, he will leave for his family:)

 

Or can you tell me then, which alternative is better? Would you personally would like to live under Russian/N. Korean/Venezuelan or even Chinese system? Why then people from all over the world flock to the western world in general and US in particullar? 

 

Btw, Luca: https://www.lrt.lt/en/news-in-english/19/2324121/more-germany-in-lithuania-vilnius-drafts-new-strategy-for-relations-with-berlin

 

For the record, I welcome and thankful for this foreign interference of Germany into our affairs no less as from US, the more, the better:)

 

Edited August 25, 2024 by UK

[Luke]

8 minutes ago, UK said:

Luca, I am 100 percent sure, that most Ukrainians (maybe except for a few in Donbass) genuinelly wanted to move to the west, as they do now, even more, after all they have endured!

This is not even the point. It's about the security of the country Russia and its citizens.

8 minutes ago, UK said:

Also: "Well, of course America’s done bad things, but one needs to look at the whole track record"

I don't think Putin/Russia look at the whole track record of America to assess their military security. Its enough to see where the US simply does what it wants against any rules. You deserve no more trust than China deserves, or even Russia. Everyone is spying against each other, as is the US spying against Germany as an example. The US would be equally willing to steal technology as China would. 

8 minutes ago, UK said:

Sorry, but this post of yours sounds to me like blaming democracy for its minuses (the worst system, except all the other), or Buffett, for not giving up 1 or whatever percent of his net worth, he will leave for his family:)

Where have I blamed democracy? I am simply talking about russias security perspective. If you don't consider that at all then you risk conflict, as we can visibly see now. The CIA bases, and millions of foreign funding are just one piece of evidence that Ukraine is not sovereign. Highly corrupt showplace of large military powers...

8 minutes ago, UK said:

Or can you tell me then, which alternative is better? Would you personally would like to live under Russian/N. Korean/Venezuelan or even Chinese system? Why then people from all over the world flock to the western world in general and US in particullar? 

This is not the discussion at all, it's about the interest of countries, including Russia and China. 

[Luke]

So if the US build out their military presence in ukraine that way, ukraine has to expect response from its neighbor. As would Canada from the US if there would be Chinese bases building out close to the border. There is enough public evidence even for amateurs like us to see its problematic. Then imagine what kind of information russian secret services have about interference...

 

If you want to argue that its justified to use your military to sabotage Russias security and to move a foreign country towards a zone of influence that you control, then I disagree with you. If you think you are allowed to do it because "democracy" then I disagree. The US wouldn't accept 1/10th of what they did with ukraine if China would do it in Canada, Mexico or whatever. 

[John Hjorth]

13 hours ago, Spekulatius said:

... I am not sure how long you have been around but Sowjet Russia has a history of making threats - the most famous one was Khrushevs  shoes scene at the United nations. You sort to know even they are losing when they do this stuff. This all bully playbook. ...

 

For those interested in what @Spekulatius is alluding to :

 

United Nations - Stories from the UN achive : Did Khrushchev bang his shoe at the UN?.

[UK]

25 minutes ago, UK said:

 

Luca, I am 100 percent sure, that most Ukrainians (maybe except for a few in Donbass) genuinelly wanted to move to the west, as they do now, even more, after all they have endured!

 

Also: "Well, of course America’s done bad things, but one needs to look at the whole track record"

 

Sorry, but this post of yours sounds to me like blaming democracy for its minuses (the worst system, except all the other), or Buffett, for not giving up 1 or whatever percent of his net worth, he will leave for his family:)

 

Or can you tell me then, which alternative is better? Would you personally would like to live under Russian/N. Korean/Venezuelan or even Chinese system? Why then people from all over the world flock to the western world in general and US in particullar? 

 

11 minutes ago, Luke said:

This is not even the point. It's about the security of the country Russia and its citizens.

I don't think Putin/Russia look at the whole track record of America to assess their military security. Its enough to see where the US simply does what it wants against any rules. You deserve no more trust than China deserves, or even Russia. Everyone is spying against each other, as is the US spying against Germany as an example. The US would be equally willing to steal technology as China would. 

Where have I blamed democracy? I am simply talking about russias security perspective. If you don't consider that at all then you risk conflict, as we can visibly see now. The CIA bases, and millions of foreign funding are just one piece of evidence that Ukraine is not sovereign. Highly corrupt showplace of large military powers...

This is not the discussion at all, it's about the interest of countries, including Russia and China. 

 

I admit Russia has its interests. Even Putin has his, perhaps over other Russians. This reality is a tragedy for some of its neighbours, who also have interests. I am also not even saying they were completelly unprovoked. I do not know how to solve this. But I am 100 percent sure I do not want their way of life to spread behind their borders or any further either:)

 

Edited August 25, 2024 by UK