f

[Scorps]

I came across this article on a non traditional teaching method that can be very powerful for kids:

http://www.wired.com/business/2013/10/free-thinkers/

[DTEJD1997]

I think that there's some value in looking at the evidence in Finland.  Buffett's basically right.  Effectively eliminating private schools and making teaching a respected, well-paid profession seemed to work pretty well there.

 

Teaching is not a respected profession in the USA?  Teachers are not well paid in the USA?

 

I live in a low cost of living area.  The school district next to me is hiring kindergarten teachers.  Teachers with NO experience get $54k to start.  If they have a Masters degree, they get several thousand more.  If they have various certifications/specialties, they get several thousand a year more on top of that.  They get benefits that are simply not seen in most private sector jobs.  Namely, they have 3 months off in the summer.  They have Christmas break, and other various days off.  They could theoretically retire in their mid 40's if they start teaching right after graduating college.

 

I play poker with a vice principal who is going to be 45, and he is seriously considering retiring in a year.  He will get a reduced pension (65%?), but the guy has 21 years in, and thus can take retirement....

 

What is the lesson plan for kindergarten?  Don't bite anyone, don't soil yourself, and behave yourself?  Perhaps it is more than that, but I can't see a kindergarten teacher doing heavy research at the library every weekend to come up with their lesson plan...

 

These teachers also get raises at regular intervals and can wind up making $100k at the end of their career.

 

I don't have any problem with somebody making a living, but these people are VERY well compensated for what they do.  I think there is a popular misconception that teachers are very poorly paid.  That simply is not the case in a lot of areas of the USA.

[ERICOPOLY]

We do it though eventually.  We concentrate the bright students and send them to place like "Stanford".

 

Right.... so do we just eliminate private pre-schools?  Only private elementary schools? Only private middle schools?  Only private high schools?

 

Or do we also eliminate private Universities?  I mean, it's such a good idea to get rid of private schools, so why not go all the way? 

[racemize]

I think that there's some value in looking at the evidence in Finland.  Buffett's basically right.  Effectively eliminating private schools and making teaching a respected, well-paid profession seemed to work pretty well there.

 

Teaching is not a respected profession in the USA?  Teachers are not well paid in the USA?

 

I live in a low cost of living area.  The school district next to me is hiring kindergarten teachers.  Teachers with NO experience get $54k to start.  If they have a Masters degree, they get several thousand more.  If they have various certifications/specialties, they get several thousand a year more on top of that.  They get benefits that are simply not seen in most private sector jobs.  Namely, they have 3 months off in the summer.  They have Christmas break, and other various days off.  They could theoretically retire in their mid 40's if they start teaching right after graduating college.

 

I play poker with a vice principal who is going to be 45, and he is seriously considering retiring in a year.  He will get a reduced pension (65%?), but the guy has 21 years in, and thus can take retirement....

 

What is the lesson plan for kindergarten?  Don't bite anyone, don't soil yourself, and behave yourself?  Perhaps it is more than that, but I can't see a kindergarten teacher doing heavy research at the library every weekend to come up with their lesson plan...

 

These teachers also get raises at regular intervals and can wind up making $100k at the end of their career.

 

I don't have any problem with somebody making a living, but these people are VERY well compensated for what they do.  I think there is a popular misconception that teachers are very poorly paid.  That simply is not the case in a lot of areas of the USA.

 

Both of my parents are teachers, and they are retiring at 54k a year (with a lot of experience), and started at the 25-30k range, as I recall, so it seems like your numbers are very very high.  Is it in CA or somewhere?

 

I will say though, that teachers get truly excellent benefits--hard to imagine having summer's off and 65% of income at retirement.  I wouldn't trade with them though.

 

 

[DTEJD1997]

Both of my parents are teachers, and they are retiring at 54k a year (with a lot of experience), and started at the 25-30k range, as I recall, so it seems like your numbers are very very high.  Is it in CA or somewhere?

 

I will say though, that teachers get truly excellent benefits--hard to imagine having summer's off and 65% of income at retirement.  I wouldn't trade with them though.

 

I am in Texas, just outside of Houston.  Believe me, this is a VERY low cost area.  You can get nice houses for $150k.  You can get big, very nice houses for $250K, and I'm talking with a pool.

 

Not every teacher is well paid of course, but they are in a LOT of places.  I know several teachers/admins back home in Michigan that are getting close to $80k, one of them WELL over $100k.  Of course, these guys have a good amount of time & experience in.

 

Tenured university professors generally are making WELL over $100k and are incredibly well paid.

 

I know for a fact that teachers in North Carolina are paid less than the average...

 

So of course, it depends somewhat on where you are at, but there are large areas of the country that compensate teachers, very, very well.  Both of these states are not high cost areas.

[Ham Hockers]

Not to get roped into this thread again (which is fun, but really isn't helping any of us make money), but just a thought: if teachers are so extravagantly overpaid for what they do, why is the quality of our teaching pool generally poor? Why do we have teacher shortages and overcrowding? Shouldn't high salaries attract the "best"? Why doesn't everyone go into teaching, where you can reap huge salaries and be lazy in the summer?

[racemize]

Both of my parents are teachers, and they are retiring at 54k a year (with a lot of experience), and started at the 25-30k range, as I recall, so it seems like your numbers are very very high.  Is it in CA or somewhere?

 

I will say though, that teachers get truly excellent benefits--hard to imagine having summer's off and 65% of income at retirement.  I wouldn't trade with them though.

 

I am in Texas, just outside of Houston.  Believe me, this is a VERY low cost area.  You can get nice houses for $150k.  You can get big, very nice houses for $250K, and I'm talking with a pool.

 

Not every teacher is well paid of course, but they are in a LOT of places.  I know several teachers/admins back home in Michigan that are getting close to $80k, one of them WELL over $100k.  Of course, these guys have a good amount of time & experience in.

 

Tenured university professors generally are making WELL over $100k and are incredibly well paid.

 

I know for a fact that teachers in North Carolina are paid less than the average...

 

So of course, it depends somewhat on where you are at, but there are large areas of the country that compensate teachers, very, very well.  Both of these states are not high cost areas.

 

Well, my parents work in The Woodlands Area--are you sure about normal teachers starting at 50k and ending at 100k?  That is way out of line from my experience, and I've been around a lot of teachers.  Certainly Vice Principals or administrators can get to that range.

[DTEJD1997]

Well, my parents work in The Woodlands Area--are you sure about normal teachers starting at 50k and ending at 100k?  That is way out of line from my experience, and I've been around a lot of teachers.  Certainly Vice Principals or administrators can get to that range.

 

Evidently the job has been filled, but the Barbers Hill school district was hiring kindergarten teachers a few months ago, and starting wage was about $50k with no experience.  I am unsure about where that position would top off at with 15 years time put in...I am sure that there are good numbers of teachers in the Michigan area who can make very close to $100k with a Masters degree and 15 years put in.

 

Please see:

 

http://www.teachersalaryinfo.com/michigan/teacher-salary-in-birmingham-city-school-district/

 

So if you have a Masters degree and 15 years in, you are going to be somewhere above the 75th percentile...That puts middle school teachers at about $79k.  The 90th percentile is at about $93k.  This is a decent living for somebody with a bit of education in their very late 30's, early 40's.

 

Bloomfield Hills is putting up similar numbers...

 

Livonia is putting up numbers about $8k per year less.

Taylor is similar to Livonia...

 

Ann Arbor schools are similar to Livonia & Taylor.

 

These schools are all suburbs of Detroit.  Birmingham and West Bloomfield are relatively affluent suburbs.  Livonia & Taylor somewhat less so...

 

I have also heard that teachers and admins get paid additional sums for after school activities, such as attending/supervising football volleyball games, running the French club, etc.

 

So I would argue that these are relatively well compensated positions with AWESOME benefits...

 

As to why more people don't flock to these positions, I simply do not know...perhaps it is not well known just what teachers are paid and their level of benefits?

[Ham Hockers]

As to why more people don't flock to these positions, I simply do not know...perhaps it is not well known just what teachers are paid and their level of benefits?

 

I kind of doubt that you could persistently overpay teachers for years without anyone finding out.

 

My point is, maybe a market interpretation would lead you to the conclusion that teachers aren't paid well enough. If you think they're overpaid, you have to be able to explain why the supply of teachers doesn't reflect that.

 

I don't know if this is correct. Just thinking out loud.

 

[Packer16]

I think the surplus/storage has to do with specialty.  Teachers are typically paid the about same for the same level of experience so you have a surplus in some areas (liberal arts) and shortage in the math/science area.  Come to Rochester and you will see oversupply of teachers with wages remaining high for those who have a job.  Similar to the 2-tier labor system they have in some parts of Europe.

 

Packer

[Ham Hockers]

I think the surplus/storage has to do with specialty.  Teachers are typically paid the about same for the same level of experience so you have a surplus in some areas (liberal arts) and shortage in the math/science area.  Come to Rochester and you will see oversupply of teachers with wages remaining high for those who have a job.  Similar to the 2-tier labor system they have in some parts of Europe.

 

Packer

 

Sounds reasonable that you have oversupply/overpayment in some areas but shortages/underpayment in others.

[hyten1]

one aspect of teacher employment that need to change is tenure. i am not talking about university professors (that is another discussion). In NYC once a teacher reach tenure you are pretty much set for life, they can't fire you or its very very difficult to do so. so you have teacher of substandard quality getting high pay (while not doing much). when budget cuts comes around, these folks get to stay but the newly enter teachers (young, energetic etc.) get let go.

 

"Once tenured, a teacher cannot be fired without due process. Technically, that doesn’t guarantee a teacher’s job for life. But in practice, the due process required to remove a tenured teacher is so burdensome and has such little probability of success that most schools don’t even attempt to remove the worst of them."

 

also New York’s teachers are eligible for tenure after just three years.

 

[Guest deepValue]

Not to get roped into this thread again (which is fun, but really isn't helping any of us make money), but just a thought: if teachers are so extravagantly overpaid for what they do, why is the quality of our teaching pool generally poor? Why do we have teacher shortages and overcrowding? Shouldn't high salaries attract the "best"? Why doesn't everyone go into teaching, where you can reap huge salaries and be lazy in the summer?

 

One of my relatives is a principal at a public high school and told me a story about a teacher who was pressured to leave another school because her class was the only one to meet expectations on a standardized test. It made all of the other teachers look bad, so she was pushed out.

 

I have a friend with a Master's degree who taught in an inner-city public middle school for a couple of years before quitting to essentially become a socialite. She said it was a tough job that did not reward good teaching. Like many of our best teachers, she was born into a wealthy family and could do whatever she wanted. So when she grew tired of teaching, she simply moved on to something else.

 

I'm not sure how you reform schools to reward good teaching, but the best teachers in bad schools are usually not welcome there.

[rkbabang]

One of my relatives is a principal at a public high school and told me a story about a teacher who was pressured to leave another school because her class was the only one to meet expectations on a standardized test. It made all of the other teachers look bad, so she was pushed out.

 

Every unionized "business" with a government backed monopoly operates this way.  I spent a summer as a splice technician for NYNEX when I was in college.  Anything goes and anything is acceptable...except doing your job well, doing your job quickly, or being honest about the number of hours you worked. 

 

You really want a "solution" to this?  1) Close every public school in the US.  2) Immediately reduce the property taxes, income taxes, sales taxes, and any other taxes which went to paying for the public school system.  3) Do nothing else, and see what the market comes up with.  3.5) It would help tremendously to get rid of taxes that currently support the United States foreign empire/wars to help people pay for the education of their children on the free market.

[rkbabang]

I will add, that every community may handle things differently.  I could see the parents in my town starting a non-profit org to keep the current schools, which are excellent (Forbes recently rated them #2 in the country) open.  Other communities you might have a lot of home schooling and a few private schools of all costs.  The only reason you don't see low cost private schools now is because there is no demand for them.  You pay a ton of taxes whether you send your kid to public school or not, so only the rich can also pay for private schools.  Therefore the only private schools that can exist in this environment cater to the wealthy.

[txlaw]

How do you handle the late bloomers?  I was one of those.  I had a learning disability (dyslexia) and feel behind when I started out but caught up later. 

 

This is very interesting. 

 

It does seem like one of the problems is the way that the education of individuals is driven off earlier assessments of their ability or skills.  The fact of the matter is that people learn at different speeds and have different results based on the educational environment.  If an individual hasn't mastered the basics on which to build their more advanced knowledge, but the education system (and curriculum) has moved, then there is a danger of a negative snowball effect.

 

Khan Academy has an interesting approach to mastery based learning.  I think that the emphasis on early identification of "gifted" kids might eventually be seen as a blunt instrument that was implemented in the stone age of education (current years) to protect some kids from being dragged down by the non-optimal approach of moving kids along in a lock-step fashion.

[racemize]

I read this article a while back and found it pretty interesting.  Has to do with how a teacher in Mexico changed the way he taught, with good success:

 

http://www.wired.com/business/2013/10/free-thinkers/

 

[crastogi]

I am from Metro Detroit area, and I can attest to the fact that these numbers seem correct, as I have more than a few teacher friends.  I cannot speak for other parts of the country

 

Well, my parents work in The Woodlands Area--are you sure about normal teachers starting at 50k and ending at 100k?  That is way out of line from my experience, and I've been around a lot of teachers.  Certainly Vice Principals or administrators can get to that range.

 

Evidently the job has been filled, but the Barbers Hill school district was hiring kindergarten teachers a few months ago, and starting wage was about $50k with no experience.  I am unsure about where that position would top off at with 15 years time put in...I am sure that there are good numbers of teachers in the Michigan area who can make very close to $100k with a Masters degree and 15 years put in.

 

Please see:

 

http://www.teachersalaryinfo.com/michigan/teacher-salary-in-birmingham-city-school-district/

 

So if you have a Masters degree and 15 years in, you are going to be somewhere above the 75th percentile...That puts middle school teachers at about $79k.  The 90th percentile is at about $93k.  This is a decent living for somebody with a bit of education in their very late 30's, early 40's.

 

Bloomfield Hills is putting up similar numbers...

 

Livonia is putting up numbers about $8k per year less.

Taylor is similar to Livonia...

 

Ann Arbor schools are similar to Livonia & Taylor.

 

These schools are all suburbs of Detroit.  Birmingham and West Bloomfield are relatively affluent suburbs.  Livonia & Taylor somewhat less so...

 

I have also heard that teachers and admins get paid additional sums for after school activities, such as attending/supervising football volleyball games, running the French club, etc.

 

So I would argue that these are relatively well compensated positions with AWESOME benefits...

 

As to why more people don't flock to these positions, I simply do not know...perhaps it is not well known just what teachers are paid and their level of benefits?

[LongHaul]

I thought the writer seemed very biased (perhaps I am the biased one though!).

 

In the picture of Valtakia Jones notice that she is very overweight and her child has a can of Dr. Pepper in her hand. 

 

I worked at a food bank and had to interview a lot of people in very difficult financial situations.  I went through their income and expenses to determine eligibility.  First - I would say about 1/3 had very difficult circumstances - medical, etc and they were deserving.  The other 2/3 had a serious spending problem.  Gas guzzling cars with loans, cell phones, and tons of other items.  Their food money was in their spending if they made the effort to cut it.  Who wants to eat rice and beans and live in a small apt and drive a tiny old car though.  About 80% were obese.  How can you get obese if you are that poor?

I came in with an open mind and really as more of a Democrat and left pretty hardened.  They say Charity hardens those who dispense it. 

 

 

Sure all of life has randomness which can have good and bad effects.  I think there is plenty of opportunity for someone who is willing to be honest, work hard and do a quality job.  You could go into any number of trades and win against the yo yo contractors who are your competitors and make a very nice living.  I really am not sure why more poor people don't do that.

 

A lot of immigrants and their children come to the U.S. with nothing and don't even speak English and do very well because they work hard and save.  Some other cultures in the US seem to be the opposite so it is no wonder the end up broke. 

 

Another thing that people don't like to hear is that a lot of lower income parents seem to be not really care about their children's schooling and education.  In a low income are perhaps 10-20% of parents might show up for parents night while in a high income it is much higher - perhaps 70-80% (at least for elementary).  That tells you a lot.  Too much TV and not enough emphasis on education.

 

My personal belief is that you make your own life as best as you can.  You live with the choices you make and deal with the consequences.

 

 

[rkbabang]

Dr. Pepper in her hand ...  How can you get obese if you are that poor?

 

A sugar and grain based diet.  A better question would be how can you be that poor and not be obese?

 

[ERICOPOLY]

There are a lot of intangibles that go into a "good school".  My daughter is in second grade public school and she has a violin assigned to her that she takes home and practices with -- brings it back in to music class once a week.  Right, whereas at a lot of schools they don't do that.  This is for all of the kids in second grade.

 

Also, optionally you can sign them up for enrichment classes that meet for an hour after school each day.  Take a look at the variety here, it's totally awesome:

 

http://www.montecitou.org/cms/lib/CA01001556/Centricity/Domain/67/Fall%202013%20After%20School%20Program.pdf

 

So I went to a private school that wasn't anywhere near as good as this public school.  I remember class sizes being 20 or so, whereas here at this public school it's about 15 kids per class (and to top it off, there is a teacher's assistant in each class).

 

[rkbabang]

There are a lot of intangibles that go into a "good school".  My daughter is in second grade public school and she has a violin assigned to her that she takes home and practices with -- brings it back in to music class once a week.  Right, whereas at a lot of schools they don't do that.  This is for all of the kids in second grade.

 

Also, optionally you can sign them up for enrichment classes that meet for an hour after school each day.  Take a look at the variety here, it's totally awesome:

 

http://www.montecitou.org/cms/lib/CA01001556/Centricity/Domain/67/Fall%202013%20After%20School%20Program.pdf

 

So I went to a private school that wasn't anywhere near as good as this public school.  I remember class sizes being 20 or so, whereas here at this public school it's about 15 kids per class (and to top it off, there is a teacher's assistant in each class).

 

That is awesome.

 

Many times when I suggest to people that schooling is too important to be left to government they come back with things like "the poor kids won't get as good an education as the wealthier kids".  Where as the way it is now, poor kids get little to no education at all, and with a few exceptions the wealthier a district is the better the educational opportunities there are available to the kids.    Under the current system you and I get to send kids to top notch schools, while poor kids get sent to these hell holes where they don't learn anything and their lives are in danger everyday just being there.  The rich, middle class, and poor alike would all be better off than now if the government just stayed out of it altogether, with the rich and upper middle class benefiting the least, because they already do quite well.

[DTEJD1997]

3.5) It would help tremendously to get rid of taxes that currently support the United States foreign empire/wars to help people pay for the education of their children on the free market.

 

Not to argue that too much money is spent on foreign entanglements (as it is)...BUT there is a LOT more money spent on education in this country than is spent on the military.

 

Think about all the property taxes, all the lottery money, all the private tuition, all the student loans going towards education, and you will see that it is MORE than what is spent on the military.  It is an easy number to miss, as most of the money is spent at the city and county level and is very dispersed.  As for national defense, almost all of that is spent by the federal government, not states, counties or cities.

[rkbabang]

3.5) It would help tremendously to get rid of taxes that currently support the United States foreign empire/wars to help people pay for the education of their children on the free market.

 

Not to argue that too much money is spent on foreign entanglements (as it is)...BUT there is a LOT more money spent on education in this country than is spent on the military.

 

Think about all the property taxes, all the lottery money, all the private tuition, all the student loans going towards education, and you will see that it is MORE than what is spent on the military.  It is an easy number to miss, as most of the money is spent at the city and county level and is very dispersed.  As for national defense, almost all of that is spent by the federal government, not states, counties or cities.

 

I agree, which is why I put that first and listed the military as an after-thought.  The entire house of cards rests on the mistaken notions that government (i.e. violence) is somehow necessary to educate children, protect us from crime, protect us from foreign invasion, print money, build roads, and fight fires.  In that order.  Education is the biggest by far.

[RichardGibbons]

Under the current system you and I get to send kids to top notch schools, while poor kids get sent to these hell holes where they don't learn anything and their lives are in danger everyday just being there.

 

Hmm, so then if you just close all the public schools, and restrict school funding to the government, you've solved the problem.  (Well, and kill tenure and union BS.)  So easy! 

 

100K -- which I think is a stretch for a teacher -- isn't a high salary after 20 years.  What does a doctor make after 20 years?  What does a partner at a law firm make after 20 years?  Heck, 15 years ago I was making about that a couple years after graduation. 

 

Of course, you probably don't think teachers are worth that much.  That's kind of what I mean by "respect and pay well".