What is it With You Guys?

[ubuy2wron]

Just once I would like to see one of these nut bars go beserk at a NRA annual convention. You either control access to fire arms or build walls around all the schools or watch innocent children slaughtered

[longtermdave]

Wow, just saw the news.  This is terrible.

 

Just makes you wonder what's wrong with the world . . .

 

I think it's what's wrong with human psychology. If you're already disturbed, seeing the shooting in Oregon gives social proof for going out and doing something similar. Just like airplane crashes increase after a first well-publicized one.

 

Malcom Gladwell wrote about this phenomoen in "Tipping Point" with relation to teen suicide in Micronesia. I thought it was an excellent book.

 

"No. I think it's much more than that, because once you start to understand this pattern you start to see it everywhere. I'm convinced that ideas and behaviors and new products move through a population very much like a disease does. This isn't just a metaphor, in other words. I'm talking about a very literal analogy. One of the things I explore in the book is that ideas can be contagious in exactly the same way that a virus is. One chapter, for example, deals with the very strange epidemic of teenage suicide in the South Pacific islands of Micronesia. In the 1970's and 1980's, Micronesia had teen suicide rates ten times higher than anywhere else in the world. Teenagers were literally being infected with the suicide bug, and one after another they were killing themselves in exactly the same way under exactly the same circumstances. We like to use words like contagiousness and infectiousness just to apply to the medical realm. But I assure you that after you read about what happened in Micronesia you'll be convinced that behavior can be transmitted from one person to another as easily as the flu or the measles can. In fact, I don't think you have to go to Micronesia to see this pattern in action. Isn't this the explanation for the current epidemic of teen smoking in this country? And what about the rash of mass shootings we're facing at the moment--from Columbine through the Atlanta stockbroker through the neo-Nazi in Los Angeles?"

 

I've wondered for years whether there's something different about Canadian society that makes these things less "infectious" there. The news? Societal norms? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the concentration of guns in Canada wasn't too far different from the US. If so, why aren't these events just as common there? My first impulse would be to look at psychological or physical factors rather than the law. E.g., are people less socially or physically isolated? Is there better treatment for mental illness? Is it less stigmatized?

 

[rkbabang]

Just once I would like to see one of these nut bars go beserk at a NRA annual convention. You either control access to fire arms or build walls around all the schools or watch innocent children slaughtered

 

How long would he last?  Would you try to shoot up an NRA convention or would you go to the one place that you know even people with concealed carry permits are not allowed to bring their weapons guaranteeing you a building full of unarmed victims?    If guns caused murder, these things would constantly happen at NRA conventions, but never in schools.

 

[rkbabang]

So let's not make it political.  Make it near impossible for 20-year old retards to obtain any sort of gun, so fewer parents have to go through what these people are now going through.  Not only those parents but that entire community will never be the same for at least a generation.  I can't imagine anything worse than a parent finding out their child died a horrific death, and not having the opportunity to protect them, console them and say good-bye! 

 

I agree with everything you just said, but let me point out that it is already impossible for a 20 year old to legally have a handgun in CT.  You need to be 21 to buy, own, or even apply for a permit to carry a handgun in CT.  And it is impossible for anyone to legally bring a gun into a school in CT.  These things are already illegal (he broke a ton of laws before he ever pulled the trigger for the first time), I don't know how you make them impossible (see my comments on drugs).  A strip search or medal detectors to enter a school building?  Turn our schools over to the TSA and make them like our airports? 

 

Just looking at the news, apparently the shooter was 24, not 20.  So it is possible for him to have had a carry permit, but still not possible for him to legally carry in a school.

 

At 24 I was married, owned my own home, and had my license to carry a concealed weapon.  At the time I owned both a shotgun and a subcompact Glock 9mm (model 26) which I could legally put in my pocket or under my coat and carry anywhere in the state of Massachusetts (although not in schools).  But somehow I never got the urge to shoot up a classroom full of children.

 

[doc75]

Malcom Gladwell wrote about this phenomoen in "Tipping Point" with relation to teen suicide in Micronesia. I thought it was an excellent book.

 

"No. I think it's much more than that, because once you start to understand this pattern you start to see it everywhere. I'm convinced that ideas and behaviors and new products move through a population very much like a disease does. This isn't just a metaphor, in other words. I'm talking about a very literal analogy. One of the things I explore in the book is that ideas can be contagious in exactly the same way that a virus is. One chapter, for example, deals with the very strange epidemic of teenage suicide in the South Pacific islands of Micronesia. In the 1970's and 1980's, Micronesia had teen suicide rates ten times higher than anywhere else in the world. Teenagers were literally being infected with the suicide bug, and one after another they were killing themselves in exactly the same way under exactly the same circumstances. We like to use words like contagiousness and infectiousness just to apply to the medical realm. But I assure you that after you read about what happened in Micronesia you'll be convinced that behavior can be transmitted from one person to another as easily as the flu or the measles can. In fact, I don't think you have to go to Micronesia to see this pattern in action. Isn't this the explanation for the current epidemic of teen smoking in this country? And what about the rash of mass shootings we're facing at the moment--from Columbine through the Atlanta stockbroker through the neo-Nazi in Los Angeles?"

 

This is very interesting. 

 

The city I live in had a string of "swarmings" a number of years back --- vicious attacks where a gang of young guys would just beat the hell out of someone for no particular reason... or maybe to steal an iPod.  It went on for about two years.  At the height of it I asked a friend who's a cop about the situation, and he said there's really not much they can do, and it will just stop by itself.  He reiterated this point that there are fads in bad behaviour as with anything else.  Sure enough, the beatings just stopped after a while.  Haven't heard of one in years. 

 

In this case it's difficult to tell how media coverage affected things.  I can't remember if the swarming stories started moving off the front page, and then they stopped, or whether the chronology was reversed.

 

It seems the dynamics of these things are very complex. 

 

[alwaysinvert]

Sorry I don't agree.  I'd prefer a world where I could buy my cocaine at the grocery story by the pound and my fully automatic machine guns without a license.  I'd prefer a world without all of the violence, poverty, and corruption that black markets create.

 

I don't understand how this point of view jibes with the statistical fact that the western countries with more stringent gun laws have lower rates of violence per capita than the US.  (Can't speak for poverty and corruption, though I doubt the US is on top there either.)

 

I'm also curious as to the ability to purchase automatic weapons without a license in your world.  Why stop there?  Should one also be able to purchase grenades and rocket launchers?  And why even stop there?  In general, do you believe that anyone, anywhere should be able to purchase any item someone is willing to sell?

 

Honestly trying to understand your point of view, not pick a fight.  There are gobs of very smart people who feel this way but I am totally confounded by the line of thinking.

There is an implicit causal inference from this that I'm not sure is so easy to make as you seem to think. There are probably very strong cultural factors at work here.

 

Easy solutions are great for soundbites but reality is a lot messier.

 

As an aside, I heard no mentions of gun laws being problematic when the Norwegian massacre happened last summer.

 

Marginalization of young men is a far more worrisome problem than gun laws, not only when it comes to these crimes but for a number of societal ills.

[rkbabang]

Malcom Gladwell wrote about this phenomoen in "Tipping Point" with relation to teen suicide in Micronesia. I thought it was an excellent book.

 

"No. I think it's much more than that, because once you start to understand this pattern you start to see it everywhere. I'm convinced that ideas and behaviors and new products move through a population very much like a disease does. This isn't just a metaphor, in other words. I'm talking about a very literal analogy. One of the things I explore in the book is that ideas can be contagious in exactly the same way that a virus is. One chapter, for example, deals with the very strange epidemic of teenage suicide in the South Pacific islands of Micronesia. In the 1970's and 1980's, Micronesia had teen suicide rates ten times higher than anywhere else in the world. Teenagers were literally being infected with the suicide bug, and one after another they were killing themselves in exactly the same way under exactly the same circumstances. We like to use words like contagiousness and infectiousness just to apply to the medical realm. But I assure you that after you read about what happened in Micronesia you'll be convinced that behavior can be transmitted from one person to another as easily as the flu or the measles can. In fact, I don't think you have to go to Micronesia to see this pattern in action. Isn't this the explanation for the current epidemic of teen smoking in this country? And what about the rash of mass shootings we're facing at the moment--from Columbine through the Atlanta stockbroker through the neo-Nazi in Los Angeles?"

 

This is very interesting. 

 

The city I live in had a string of "swarmings" a number of years back --- vicious attacks where a gang of young guys would just beat the hell out of someone for no particular reason... or maybe to steal an iPod.  It went on for about two years.  At the height of it I asked a friend who's a cop about the situation, and he said there's really not much they can do, and it will just stop by itself.  He reiterated this point that there are fads in bad behaviour as with anything else.  Sure enough, the beatings just stopped after a while.  Haven't heard of one in years. 

 

In this case it's difficult to tell how media coverage affected things.  I can't remember if the swarming stories started moving off the front page, and then they stopped, or whether the chronology was reversed.

 

It seems the dynamics of these things are very complex. 

 

 

Meme theory.  Ideas spread from one person to the next and evolve as they do.  Some ideas replicate well (religions or political ideologies) and some not as well (like shooting up schools), but even these ideas can still spread among a crowd of people unusually susceptible to them.  With the internet and mass media it is like infecting everyone with every meme and seeing what sticks. This is usually a good thing as many bad ideas don't survive the exposure to better ones, but the downside is that there will always be certain deranged individuals exposed to new ideas that they wouldn't otherwise been exposed to.  Like with everything else in life, with increased communications technology, you need to take the bad with the good.

[ERICOPOLY]

Australia tightened it's gun control laws after it's big shooting massacre:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Arthur_massacre_(Australia)

[Shane]

So let's not make it political.  Make it near impossible for 20-year old retards to obtain any sort of gun, so fewer parents have to go through what these people are now going through.  Not only those parents but that entire community will never be the same for at least a generation.  I can't imagine anything worse than a parent finding out their child died a horrific death, and not having the opportunity to protect them, console them and say good-bye! 

 

I agree with everything you just said, but let me point out that it is already impossible for a 20 year old to legally have a handgun in CT.  You need to be 21 to buy, own, or even apply for a permit to carry a handgun in CT.  And it is impossible for anyone to legally bring a gun into a school in CT.  These things are already illegal (he broke a ton of laws before he ever pulled the trigger for the first time), I don't know how you make them impossible (see my comments on drugs).  A strip search or medal detectors to enter a school building?  Turn our schools over to the TSA and make them like our airports?

 

Come on man... you can go a few hours north or south and buy a gun... are you intentionally avoiding logic?

[rkbabang]

  In general, do you believe that anyone, anywhere should be able to purchase any item someone is willing to sell?

 

In short.  Yes.

 

Honestly trying to understand your point of view, not pick a fight.  There are gobs of very smart people who feel this way but I am totally confounded by the line of thinking.

 

As we are yours.

 

Hundreds of millions of people were killed by governments in the 20th century alone.  Private crime can never equal such slaughter.  You support creating a violent organization which kills millions to protect you from violence. One that steals half of everything you will ever create, to protect you from theft.  Tells you what you can and can't do with your own body, what you can and can't own, how and when you can protect yourself, what you can and can't produce, what you can and can't consume, what you can and can't buy, what you can and can't sell.  In theory I have no problem with you doing any of this.  You should be able to do what you want.  My problem is that I am not allowed to opt out of the insanity.

 

[Shane]

You can opt out of the insanity by moving, no?

[compoundinglife]

Malcom Gladwell wrote about this phenomoen in "Tipping Point" with relation to teen suicide in Micronesia. I thought it was an excellent book.

 

"No. I think it's much more than that, because once you start to understand this pattern you start to see it everywhere. I'm convinced that ideas and behaviors and new products move through a population very much like a disease does. This isn't just a metaphor, in other words. I'm talking about a very literal analogy. One of the things I explore in the book is that ideas can be contagious in exactly the same way that a virus is. One chapter, for example, deals with the very strange epidemic of teenage suicide in the South Pacific islands of Micronesia. In the 1970's and 1980's, Micronesia had teen suicide rates ten times higher than anywhere else in the world. Teenagers were literally being infected with the suicide bug, and one after another they were killing themselves in exactly the same way under exactly the same circumstances. We like to use words like contagiousness and infectiousness just to apply to the medical realm. But I assure you that after you read about what happened in Micronesia you'll be convinced that behavior can be transmitted from one person to another as easily as the flu or the measles can. In fact, I don't think you have to go to Micronesia to see this pattern in action. Isn't this the explanation for the current epidemic of teen smoking in this country? And what about the rash of mass shootings we're facing at the moment--from Columbine through the Atlanta stockbroker through the neo-Nazi in Los Angeles?"

 

This is very interesting. 

 

The city I live in had a string of "swarmings" a number of years back --- vicious attacks where a gang of young guys would just beat the hell out of someone for no particular reason... or maybe to steal an iPod.  It went on for about two years.  At the height of it I asked a friend who's a cop about the situation, and he said there's really not much they can do, and it will just stop by itself.  He reiterated this point that there are fads in bad behaviour as with anything else.  Sure enough, the beatings just stopped after a while.  Haven't heard of one in years. 

 

In this case it's difficult to tell how media coverage affected things.  I can't remember if the swarming stories started moving off the front page, and then they stopped, or whether the chronology was reversed.

 

It seems the dynamics of these things are very complex.

 

I agree its very complex. I think the difference between something like swarming and mass shootings is that swarming never "tipped" so it died off. With mass shootings it seemed like they reached the tipping point a while ago and we are seeing the results of it.

 

I have never reached a conclusion personally on gun control. I can see valid points on both sides of the fence. On the subject of the epidemic of mass shootings, I think we are past the point where gun laws will have any affect on this particular problem. If it was very hard to get hand guns when the first one happened it might not of spread but I think its too late. I also believe that if the shooters felt they would never make it on the front page of the paper or on nationwide news most of them probably would not commit the crime.

 

[longtermdave]

 

I also believe that if the shooters felt they would never make it on the front page of the paper or on nationwide news most of them probably would not commit the crime.

 

I fully agree here. I just wish it were possible.

[rkbabang]

You can opt out of the insanity by moving, no?

 

Every square foot of livable space on this planet is claimed by one or more of these gangs of thugs.  That's like telling a shop owner that "Vinny controls this neighborhood" and if he doesn't like paying his protection money, he should move.

Only in the case of the shop owner he probably could find a different city without a strong mafia presence.  No one should have a claim on your production simply because of where you are physically located.  And no one anywhere has a right to tell me what I can buy, sell, produce, or use to protect myself based on where I happen to be.  Of course there are more of you than there are of me (might really does make right, which is the entire basis of democracy) so until the freedom meme spreads the situation is what it is.

 

I should also add that moving to New Hampshire a year ago was a deliberate effort to at least live in a place that was slightly more free than where I was before (Massachusetts).

[Vish_ram]

The problem is that the genie is out of the bottle. No new measures will control the guns out there. This country is totally screwed.

 

What I don't understand is ,why are those social conservatives in Republican side support NRA? where is the family value when you see people getting killed day in and out?

 

Guns don't kill people, yes TNT doesnt kill people, nuclear bombs don't kill people. I used to work near Newtown (danbury).

I've two elementary school going kids in GA. It is scary. What is scarier is the apathy of American people towards gun violence. Hope NRA rot in hell

[NormR]

Malcom Gladwell wrote about this phenomoen in "Tipping Point" with relation to teen suicide in Micronesia. I thought it was an excellent book.

 

Be careful with Gladwell, he tells a very good yarn but many of the studies he highlights have later turned out to be, shall we say, "overly optimistic".  Not that Gladwell is at fault, but "new and interesting" research has a low hit rate / high spurious result rate. 

[NormR]

Guns don't kill people, yes TNT doesnt kill people, nuclear bombs don't kill people.

 

While idiots with guns are a concern, I'm more worried about wackos with viruses / nukes.

[doc75]

Just looking at the news, apparently the shooter was 24, not 20.  So it is possible for him to have had a carry permit, but still not possible for him to legally carry in a school.

 

At 24 I was married, owned my own home, and had my license to carry a concealed weapon.  At the time I owned both a shotgun and a subcompact Glock 9mm (model 26) which I could legally put in my pocket or under my coat and carry anywhere in the state of Massachusetts (although not in schools).  But somehow I never got the urge to shoot up a classroom full of children.

 

I don't think your average lunatic is too concerned about the legality of their actions, so the illegality of carrying a gun into a school is not a barrier.  Given ready access to a weapon, the perpetrator is going to commit the act regardless of any law.  The point of gun control is to restrict access to weapons so that it is substantially harder (not impossible) for a lunatic to get one. 

 

The unfortunate consequence of gun control is that it also impedes on the rights of responsible non-lunatics such as you and me.  For me the tradeoff is well worth it; for you and many others it apparently isn't.  Fair enough.  But it's silly to suggest that gun control laws would have no effect on school shootings and domestic violence simply because it's already illegal to walk into a school with a gun or attack your partner. 

 

Finally, I don't know anybody who thinks that having a gun *makes* one commit violent crimes, so I don't understand what point you're trying to make by saying you've never contemplated mass murder despite owning a gun.  You are the 99%.  Gun control advocates just view your loss of rights as acceptable collateral damage, they're not out to get you specifically.

 

 

[compoundinglife]

Malcom Gladwell wrote about this phenomoen in "Tipping Point" with relation to teen suicide in Micronesia. I thought it was an excellent book.

 

Be careful with Gladwell, he tells a very good yarn but many of the studies he highlights have later turned out to be, shall we say, "overly optimistic".  Not that Gladwell is at fault, but "new and interesting" research has a low hit rate / high spurious result rate.

 

Yup, lies, damn lies and statistics. Some of his pieces are very thought provoking IMO and have opened me up to ways of thinking about things. Yes I am aware the studies can be very flawed. Thanks for pointing that out, always good not to take something at face value.

[rkbabang]

I've two elementary school going kids in GA. It is scary. What is scarier is the apathy of American people towards gun violence. Hope NRA rot in hell

 

I'm not an NRA member I quit about 15 years ago in disgust at their constant willingness to compromise with the gun control crowd, but I do notice that the most vile and hate filled speech is always from the direction of the victim dissarmament crowd directed at the NRA.  Never in the opposite direction.  Have a nice day.

[KFRCanuk]

Firearms have come a LONG way since the Right to Bear Arms was added to the Constitution.

 

I mean, at the time, they had muskets and flint locks. Did machining even exist as a process then? Did a machine lath even exist?

[rkbabang]

Firearms have come a LONG way since the Right to Bear Arms was added to the Constitution.

 

I mean, at the time, they had muskets and flint locks. Did machining even exist as a process then? Did a machine lath even exist?

 

So has communications/publishing.  Does the 1st amendment not cover what you write over the internet?  The founders never imagined that you could write something and have it viewable by anyone on earth 5 seconds later.

 

The revolution was won because of the fact that the colonists had access to the same weaponry as the British.  This is sadly not the case anymore.  The only way a government will fear its people is if the people have access to the same weapons as it does.  The armed aerial drone or the attack helicopter is the modern equivalent of the mounted knight in full armor riding through the medieval village.  Had the crossbow, then the firearm, never been invented we'd be living in the middle ages still today.  If we don't want to go into another period of violence and stagnation what we desperately need is something to once again even up the power discrepancy between the rulers and the ruled.

[doc75]

Sorry I don't agree.  I'd prefer a world where I could buy my cocaine at the grocery story by the pound and my fully automatic machine guns without a license.  I'd prefer a world without all of the violence, poverty, and corruption that black markets create.

 

I don't understand how this point of view jibes with the statistical fact that the western countries with more stringent gun laws have lower rates of violence per capita than the US.  (Can't speak for poverty and corruption, though I doubt the US is on top there either.)

There is an implicit causal inference from this that I'm not sure is so easy to make as you seem to think. There are probably very strong cultural factors at work here.

 

Easy solutions are great for soundbites but reality is a lot messier.

 

As an aside, I heard no mentions of gun laws being problematic when the Norwegian massacre happened last summer.

 

Marginalization of young men is a far more worrisome problem than gun laws, not only when it comes to these crimes but for a number of societal ills.

 

There is no causal inference being made. Rkbabang said that black markets lead to violent crime, which suggests that less restrictive gun laws should lead to less violent crime.  My point is that ALL the statistics I am aware of suggest the opposite correlation, so I'm really unclear where he's coming from. 

 

Agreed that there are very strong cultural factors at work.  And surely the culture is shaped by the legislation, just as legislation is (at least originally) shaped by the culture.  There are plenty of confounding variables at work here.  A big tobacco executive would have a field day.

 

The phrase "Easy solutions are great for soundbites but reality is a lot messier," is very interesting:  It is, in itself, a soundbite.  You hear it most every time a large change is proposed to a well established system.  It's quite patronizing.    (Maybe you know some people who think that gun control laws will completely eliminate such atrocities.  I'm not one of them.)

 

100% agreed on marginalization of young men.  I find that situation to be very alarming, particularly in Europe.  In the past, lunatics have been eerily opportunistic at such times.

 

[zippy1]

Firearms have come a LONG way since the Right to Bear Arms was added to the Constitution.

 

I mean, at the time, they had muskets and flint locks. Did machining even exist as a process then? Did a machine lath even exist?

 

So has communications/publishing.  Does the 1st amendment not cover what you write over the internet?  The founders never imagined that you could write something and have it viewable by anyone on earth 5 seconds later.

 

The revolution was won because of the fact that the colonists had access to the same weaponry as the British.  This is sadly not the case anymore.  The only way a government will fear its people is if the people have access to the same weapons as it does.  The armed aerial drone or the attack helicopter is the modern equivalent of the mounted knight in full armor riding through the medieval village.  Had the crossbow, then the firearm, never been invented we'd be living in the middle ages still today.  If we don't want to go into another period of violence and stagnation what we desperately need is something to once again even up the power discrepancy between the rulers and the ruled.

So, weapon has come a long way.

 

Does "the right to bear arm" include nuclear weapon in people's view? The rulers obviously have nuclear weapons nowadays.  If you want to een up the power discrepancy between the rulers and the ruled, isn't that the way to go? Should everyone get one?  Would you advice that?

 

Or a M1 tank will do?  Maybe a machine gun should be enough? a handgun? a shotgun? or a knife? 

 

I am not trying to take away your right. I am just curious about how people think about this.

[matjone]

I am with rkbabang.  Crime isn't the point.  The freedom to speak out against the government, and the freedom to own weapons to overthrow the government if need be, was the whole point of those amendments.  The people who wrote this into law knew human nature and what happens when people have too much power.

 

Look at what the U.S. did after one attack.  They were hauling people off in the middle of the night to secret torture facilities, indefinitely detaining them, without charging them with a crime or giving them access to a lawyer.  You want to give all the guns to these people?