Pirated Medicine

[LC]

Interesting article I came upon. The future of healthcare? We saw what piracy did for the media industry, what about medicine?

 

https://www.404media.co/email/63ca5568-c610-4489-9bfc-7791804e9535/?

[lnofeisone]

Thanks for sharing. This is very fascinating. Of course, it is very illegal on so many levels, but if someone has no insurance, unfortunately, this is a path.

 

I think there might be an illegal market but I don't think this will be the future of medicine. Pirating a movie vs. taking an ad-hoc manufactured pill has very different risk profiles. 

[LC]

Very true - I think there are a few considerations:

 

-Risk profile: my understanding is you are relying on (1) some software to direct the correct formula, mixing, dosing, etc. of a drug; and (2) the "lab equipment" to correctly implement these instructions. I would imagine both would improve greatly at the early stages. They could pull the formulas from academic systems/literature and patent filings? 

 

-Illegality: I am no patent lawyer. Is it illegal to mix up a patented drug for personal consumption? If there is no commercialization? What about generic formulas?

 

It's super interesting and I agree it won't replace industrialized medicine, but perhaps one day if they can really dial in the lab process, it could be used for low(er) risk applications? Vaccines with little/no side effects? 

[Saluki]

3 hours ago, LC said:

Very true - I think there are a few considerations:

 

-Risk profile: my understanding is you are relying on (1) some software to direct the correct formula, mixing, dosing, etc. of a drug; and (2) the "lab equipment" to correctly implement these instructions. I would imagine both would improve greatly at the early stages. They could pull the formulas from academic systems/literature and patent filings? 

 

-Illegality: I am no patent lawyer. Is it illegal to mix up a patented drug for personal consumption? If there is no commercialization? What about generic formulas?

 

It's super interesting and I agree it won't replace industrialized medicine, but perhaps one day if they can really dial in the lab process, it could be used for low(er) risk applications? Vaccines with little/no side effects? 

 

I'm sure that some molecules are very easy to make, which is why counterfeit Fentanyl/Oxycontin is smuggled in from Mexico.  I don't know a lot about chemistry, but I'm fairly certain that a lot of things will require precise equipment, temperature and other controls that are beyond most people's abilities, even if they had the right equipment. For example, my understanding is that some compounds are produced and the molecules are mirror images of each other, but the left hand molecule has different properties than the right hand molecule, so figuring out how to get the one you want and not the other is a challenge. Or what about things like mono clonal antibodies?  

 

So I can see people meth at home, but I don't things like insulin.  There's a book called Future Crimes, by a guy who worked at the FBI. It has some elements of this kind of thinking. Since gene splicing is viable now, and you can implant genes in plants from other plants to produce what you want, why not have a plant on your window sill that has been altered to make cocaine at home?  They can't stop it at the border if you can download the directions from the internet. 

 

People are already making illegal things like ghost guns with 3d printers, so I'm sure that this will become an issue as tech gets cheaper and AI is there to help you work through the roadblocks that you encounter.  "Hey Siri, this recipe for [drug] isn't working. Based on this lab test that yielded these results, what part of the manufacture am I doing wrong, and how do I correct it?" 

[UNF2007]

Honestly the first thing that came to my mind when reading this was how similar  in spelling microlab is to miniLab, a gross oversight from their PR people if you ask me lol. That aside I think it would have been more interesting if instead of just taking the word of the guy, the authors took some of the sample compounds and sent them to a third party lab to verify the structure and purity. Also many of these drugs are not so simple as just synthesizing the active drug, there are also binding agents that control release and absorption and other little nuances like enantiomers. I do sympathize with the cause though and wish them luck. 

 

 

[lnofeisone]

On 9/6/2024 at 10:49 AM, LC said:

Very true - I think there are a few considerations:

 

-Risk profile: my understanding is you are relying on (1) some software to direct the correct formula, mixing, dosing, etc. of a drug; and (2) the "lab equipment" to correctly implement these instructions. I would imagine both would improve greatly at the early stages. They could pull the formulas from academic systems/literature and patent filings? 

 

-Illegality: I am no patent lawyer. Is it illegal to mix up a patented drug for personal consumption? If there is no commercialization? What about generic formulas?

 

It's super interesting and I agree it won't replace industrialized medicine, but perhaps one day if they can really dial in the lab process, it could be used for low(er) risk applications? Vaccines with little/no side effects? 

Exactly. When it comes to making drugs, having the right ingredients is only half of the equation. The other half is the process pathway. If you get the process pathway wrong you can get the exact same molecule but with different chirality. Think of it as your hands, 5 fingers, but total images are not exactly the same, and there is nothing you can do rotation-wise to make the two look exactly the same. The problem is that taking the isomer of the chiral drug (wrong orientation) can have differences in biological interaction - thinking pharmacology, pharmacokinetics, and metabolism. It gets scary very quickly. If you are interested, look up the thalidomide scandal from the 1960s.

[lnofeisone]

The other implied point that's worth mentioning is testing. Drug batches get tested for quality, correctness, etc. These processes go out of the window with these small batches as tests would require specialized equipment and cost a lot.

[LC]

Those are all fair points - nobody sensible and with any self preservation instinct would disagree.

 

I think everyone involved here would acknowledge there is a lot which can potentially go wrong, of course. The Thalidomide scandal shows just how disastrous that can be.

 

The flip side of the argument is something like, the healthcare system is failing people. Thalidomide was created by a large pharmaceutical company. It was sold with government approval/agreement. And it caused a catastrophe. It's not the only example. I guess the more disgruntled people become with the status quo, it incentivizes projects like this. 

 

I really do think if they or someone else can dial in all the specifics that you mention, there is a market for this. I am obviously not a doctor and don't know how feasible that even is, but part of me hopes someone can do it. 

 

And you know, I think doctors would lean more in support versus against. First, because they too have to struggle against the healthcare system (at least in the US) to provide patient care they believe is right, and two because doctors are some of the most liberal medicine users I have ever met. 

[Spekulatius]

I do t see this happening , way to complicated and risky. Biological molecules required are impossible to make, you need a multi million $ lab for those at the bare minimum.

 

I think the more likely path are illegal imports from countries like China or India which have a significant generics industry and produce these patented drugs as generics (ignoring patents) about 90% cheaper and they get smuggled in the US via offshore pharmacies.

 

Thats already happening right now, but not on a huge scale.

 

Thalidomide was never approved or sold in the US, it was approved in Europe as Contergan ( regulators in Europe were more easygoing back then) and I recall seeing quite a few Contergan babies/ kids back in the sixties and seventies.

This is more of an argument for more and stricter regulation than failing the health care system. Image what will happen if everyone starts to produce his own drug in the garage or you buy them from the coke or weed dealer around the corner?

Edited September 9 by Spekulatius

[UK]

It was a while ago, so maybe not true anymore, but while researching TEVA and KRKA some 10 years ago, I think I came to understanding, that 'pirated medicine' is basically what lots of emerging countries (some with a huge populations) were allowing and doing on an industrial scale. Something like like: https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/patent-wars-india-takes-on-big-pharma. 

[scorpioncapital]

A decent rebuttal from an industry veteran - https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/anarchist-drugs-all-yeahboy

 

Really, the major idea I see here is not the amateurish synthesis of existing drugs (which is probably very dangerous anyway) but access to medicines on the patient's terms.

Why isn't everyone in every country able to get access to a specific drug? Why one country allows it, another doesn't approve it - at the same time? Why do we have to go through some gatekeepers because the 'State' is paying for it? This is especially true as most of the world has public healthcare systems. The point is that drugs aren't always available on the patient's terms - especially if they depend on Big Brother subsidizing it. There is too much power given to the medical profession and the Government. Cost is the other issue, in the case where it isn't subsidized, you are able to get a doc to give you a prescription, no strings attached - it could be very expensive to buy. Improve cost and access and none of this is necessary. 

Another aspect is new cell therapy type drugs. This is going to be much more complex to deliver, and expensive. However, if this guy can show that things can be done cheaper in a decentralized way, people might start to question why It's so expensive. 

 

 

 

Edited September 10 by scorpioncapital