Drone Companies that are off the beaten path

[Saluki]

 

 

It's surprise to anyone except the generals in the military that the current war is always being fought with the prior war's tactics, and the first to adapt to the new reality has an advantage. The Civil War was fought with muskets, but the invention of Colt's multi shot revolvers and better rifling, made small fighting forces and snipers more effective which altered the tactics. World War I initially was fought with Calvary, but trenches and machine guns changed the tactics quickly for all future battles.  WWII started with trenches and the Maginot Line, but the Tank had already been invented and "shock and awe" was quickly the new paradigm. The Russians still relied on Tanks, artillery and naval superiority in Ukraine, but inexpensive drones providing real time intelligence, and even improvised sea drones quickly brought the war to a standstill against a much larger force.  Maybe the next war will be all cyber attacks, but drones seem to be what is working now.  

 

The above video shows a DARPA prototype by Northrup Grumman that is very interesting.  Instead of patrol ships in the Red Sea waiting to find Houthi or Somali Pirates in the middle of an attack, what if it was in sleep mode nearby until activated by a 911 beacon and it could be in the fight in hours instead of days? So my question is, besides the BIG contractors, like Northrup which will benefit, but it will be a small part of a larger operation and won't move the needle, can you think of some smaller companies that will benefit from this? 

 

For example, I own some Taylor Devices because I was impressed with the potential of their structural inertial dampers (giant earthquake shock absorbers for buildings) and the growth they exhibited, I thought it would have more growth because of insurance companies who are refusing to do business in some states from rising losses. The devices can prevent earthquake damage.  However, that business shrunk last quarter but was more than made up by their aerospace segment, which producers shock absorbers for Predator drones. I noticed that Kraken Robotics (which is pricey but high growth) makes batteries for undersea subs made by others, but used in the oil and gas industry. Could these be useful in sea drones?  Ondas is a company that has FCC frequencies that Railroads can use for reliability communications (like what Anterix uses for Utilities), and they also have an unusual tech that is a flying drone that throws a net on other drones, so you can capture it without destroying it (for intelligence or reuse?).  Is this a viable military application? Is anyone else working on drone vs drone tech? 

 

So my question is do you know of any smaller cap companies that supply parts, equipment, or software for bigger defense contractors doing things like air or sea drones, or cybersecurity?  Palantir is an obvious name in intelligence and the big players like Amazon and MSFT are fighting over cloud contracts, but there has to be other smaller suppliers that are feeding into those use cases.  Olin makes ammunition for the army, but it's over $6bln so they won't see much benefit even if there are twice as many wars. So something in the $1Bln or less market cap would be interesting.  Any ideas? 

 

[Saluki]

Droneshield is a $475mm market cap Australian company in the drone market.  It's 8x sales, so it's probably just in the watch pile, but I'll add the name here in case I find more names and maybe one of them will be interesting enough to start a separate post. 

[Saluki]

Teledyne's imaging business is about 55% of revenues, but it's declining.   They have a drone business that is growing 30% a year, but it's one of those great businesses that is stuck inside a terrible business.  It doesn't look like a bargain, and if it was, you would think you'd be able to find at least one insider who was buying, instead of cashing in and selling out their shares as soon as they get them: 

 

TDY - Teledyne Technologies Inc - SEC Form 4 Insider Trading Screener - OpenInsider

 

Teledyne Technologies Incorporated (NYSE:TDY) Q1 2024 Earnings Call Transcript (yahoo.com)

 

Cool drones though  

 

 

[Spekulatius]

On 5/10/2024 at 11:56 AM, Saluki said:

 

 

It's surprise to anyone except the generals in the military that the current war is always being fought with the prior war's tactics, and the first to adapt to the new reality has an advantage. The Civil War was fought with muskets, but the invention of Colt's multi shot revolvers and better rifling, made small fighting forces and snipers more effective which altered the tactics. World War I initially was fought with Calvary, but trenches and machine guns changed the tactics quickly for all future battles.  WWII started with trenches and the Maginot Line, but the Tank had already been invented and "shock and awe" was quickly the new paradigm. The Russians still relied on Tanks, artillery and naval superiority in Ukraine, but inexpensive drones providing real time intelligence, and even improvised sea drones quickly brought the war to a standstill against a much larger force.  Maybe the next war will be all cyber attacks, but drones seem to be what is working now.  

 

The above video shows a DARPA prototype by Northrup Grumman that is very interesting.  Instead of patrol ships in the Red Sea waiting to find Houthi or Somali Pirates in the middle of an attack, what if it was in sleep mode nearby until activated by a 911 beacon and it could be in the fight in hours instead of days? So my question is, besides the BIG contractors, like Northrup which will benefit, but it will be a small part of a larger operation and won't move the needle, can you think of some smaller companies that will benefit from this? 

 

For example, I own some Taylor Devices because I was impressed with the potential of their structural inertial dampers (giant earthquake shock absorbers for buildings) and the growth they exhibited, I thought it would have more growth because of insurance companies who are refusing to do business in some states from rising losses. The devices can prevent earthquake damage.  However, that business shrunk last quarter but was more than made up by their aerospace segment, which producers shock absorbers for Predator drones. I noticed that Kraken Robotics (which is pricey but high growth) makes batteries for undersea subs made by others, but used in the oil and gas industry. Could these be useful in sea drones?  Ondas is a company that has FCC frequencies that Railroads can use for reliability communications (like what Anterix uses for Utilities), and they also have an unusual tech that is a flying drone that throws a net on other drones, so you can capture it without destroying it (for intelligence or reuse?).  Is this a viable military application? Is anyone else working on drone vs drone tech? 

 

So my question is do you know of any smaller cap companies that supply parts, equipment, or software for bigger defense contractors doing things like air or sea drones, or cybersecurity?  Palantir is an obvious name in intelligence and the big players like Amazon and MSFT are fighting over cloud contracts, but there has to be other smaller suppliers that are feeding into those use cases.  Olin makes ammunition for the army, but it's over $6bln so they won't see much benefit even if there are twice as many wars. So something in the $1Bln or less market cap would be interesting.  Any ideas? 

 

Thats just a B2 that is swimming.

[Saluki]

Kratos is a drone company I looked at this weekend.  US based and has US military contracts, like the big boys.  I think it's trading at a ridiculously high valuation, but part of that value is probably that people think it will eventually get swallowed up by one of the major defense contractors like Raytheon.  

 

And since it's in the US, it's probably limited in who it can sell drones too without the government's permission.  DroneShield is an Australian company and they make a counter-drone jammer device, but since it's not in the US, they probably have more people that they can sell their tech too without government interference.  Unfortunately, it's trading at too high a price for my taste also. 

[Saluki]

Yesterday, I saw this company jumped 80%, and I wasn't familiar with it, so I checked it out. I don't care enough about it to start a post, but I guess here is a good place to put it.

 

Ocean Power Technologies, Inc. (OPTT) Stock Price, News, Quote & History - Yahoo Finance

 

 

 

OPTT is Ocean Power Technologies, and they are a nano cap that reminds me of Kraken Robotics, but their tech isn't as good and they aren't profitable.  They make stuff for the oil and gas industry, and some of it has applicability to defense, which is why Teledyne Marine signed a deal with them.  They also announced some deals with an unnamed US government agency. It was curious that they announced several deals but didn't mention any dollar amount.  After some more digging, it looks like they are in a fight with an activist investor who says that OPTT is in financial trouble and they are refusing to let the investor, Paragon, do a non dilutive preferred investment, and are instead trying to pump up the stock price and issue shares to dilute everyone. 

 

Besides the drone stuff which they sold to the UAE, and looks amateurish, they also have some buoy that generates electricity from the sea movement, and it's all over their website.  The problem with that wave electricity generation is that it's usually not feasible.  It tends to be expensive and usually gets damaged in storms.  It looks like they tried to partner with a big company to develop/license it but they walked away because it wasn't feasible either. This stuff would be an interesting green tech (and more reliable than wind generation) if someone could actually make it work and produce electricity at a price that makes it competitive with wind/solar.  Maybe someone will figure it out, but I don't think it will these guys. 

I think with AI the easy money has already been made in places like NVDA, and in drones the same is true about defense contractors.  But I'm still convinced that if you keep turning over stones you will find things in related industries that will benefit and are off the beaten path so they aren't noticed by the crowd.  I don't think OPTT is one of those, but I'll keep turning over stones and eventually something will come up.  

 

(I have about a 1.5% each in Taylor Devices and Kraken Robotics, which are adjacent to companies that make drones, and I plan to hold them for a few years and let them compound quietly in the shadows, adding on the dips when I can.)

[formthirteen]

On 5/29/2024 at 11:59 PM, Saluki said:

Teledyne's imaging business is about 55% of revenues, but it's declining.   They have a drone business that is growing 30% a year, but it's one of those great businesses that is stuck inside a terrible business.  It doesn't look like a bargain, and if it was, you would think you'd be able to find at least one insider who was buying, instead of cashing in and selling out their shares as soon as they get them: 

 

Teledyne also owns Universal Robots A/S which builds "cobots":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Robots

 

 

[Saluki]

I stumbled on this one, Red Cat Holdings which has 3X its stock price in a year. 

 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/red-cat-holdings-reports-financial-203000988.html

 

And this is why it's hard to invest in a hot industry.  Cash way down, receivables way up and the stock goes parabolic because of the revenue increase. 

[Saluki]

 

Here is a guy talking up RedCat.  This came out after my post. 

 

The thesis is that RedCat is one of the finalists for a military contract.  If it's a binary outcome like that, options would probably be a better idea, but this is not a big company, so it will tough to play it.  And since it's up 3-4X in less than a year, good luck finding someone to sell you one that isn't outrageously priced based on the volatility. 

 

Also, if they don't get the military contract, you are stuck owning a company that you overpaid for because it was pumped on Twitter, and they are late filing their 10-K, so it's questionable if you can trust them. 

 

Moreover, even if they get a military contract, the thesis is built on profitability if they can use that contract to borrow money to build a new factory, which will help them produce a larger quantity of drones and lower costs through economies of scale.  

 

If that contract doesn't come through, or if does and the new massive capex doesn't solve all their problems, then you're only catalyst is to hope that you get acquired by a larger defense contractor.  Too hard pile. 

[Morgan]

@Saluki thank you for continuing to post here. Lots of interesting stuff to review. Thank you! 

[Spekulatius]

Getting a contract and completing it profitably are not the same thing, especially with a company that does it have strong accounting as the late 10-k indicates. This is not for the faint of the heart.

Edited September 6 by Spekulatius

[Fitz]

There is AeroVironment ( AVAV ) they are a pure play on drones. They have been way to expensive since the Ukraine war but I got to take a tour of their facility about a year ago and they have interesting products. They have drones and carry other little drones that can fly through a window and around building to hit a target. Pretty cool stuff. They ship a ton of stuff to Ukraine and now Taiwan. 

[Saluki]

Probably too small a company for most people, and there isn't a separate post on here, but I'll add Mind Technology (MIND) to the list of drone companies that are off the beaten path.  They make underwater imaging stuff, like Kraken, which is useful for telecom, oil and gas, and defense industries, but not actual drones. Because I have a terrible track record with stuff that has cool tech but no profits, this is in the too hard pile for now. I'm mentioning it here, to keep all the drone stuff together so it's easier to find.

 

It's a very small company and if you do a search for "Mind Technology" the results will be overrun with websites for mediation, spirituality and  healing crystals.   What's interesting is that they had some sales, but they also had a callable 9% preferred stock. So the little cash that went in one door, went out the other door.  They recently converted the preferred to common.  Besides diluting the common, which sucks for the bag holders, the preferred holders who wanted a steady 9% payout were probably not happy about owning an illiquid micro cap common stock and the selling has cratered the stock price.  So while it's not profitable yet, by getting rid of the 9% financing, it may get to profitability soon.  In the watch pile until then, but if anyone has thoughts on it, feel free to chime in. 

[Value_Added]

ISSC isn’t exactly a drone company “yet” but their R&D budget is largely allocated toward advancing airplane safety by innovating the cockpit and controls of aircraft to become pilotless (drone).  Obviously this is YEARS away and maybe even never-their first step is a cockpit without a co-pilot.

 

 Great business too.  They keep acquiring small companies and product lines from large companies (Honeywell), incorporating their extreme efficiencies (completely vertical on most products) and making a tidy profit.  They’re in a position now where they can really flex their operating leverage muscles.  CEO mentioned they have extra manufacturing space for one or two more product lines (which will increase their EBITDA margins even more) before they need to expand their facilities.  He believes with their current facilities, $100m in revenue is doable.  They’ve announced 2 product line acquisitions since this statement was made so I’m making the assumption that over the next few years revenue will creep near $100m (from 45m currently).  The expansion is already designed and planned and will cost $5 million to build.  Per the CEO, purchasing product lines from a large player like Honeywell also allows them to cross sell their other products to existing Honeywell customers that they would otherwise have to spend money to acquire as a customer, likely with much less success.  Projected EBITDA margin as their manufacturing space is fully utilized and newly purchased product lines are taken vertical is 30%.
 

 Back of the envelope math…give the projected $100 million revenue a haircut and assume $80 million in revenue.  25% EBITDA margin (current) would be $20 mil in EBITDA.  No reason a business like this wouldn’t trade at 20x EV/EBITDA multiple…assuming they stay mostly debt free then the EV would be $400 million (versus $140 million today).  If they get to $100m in revenue with 30% EBITDA and trade at a 25x EV/EBITDA, that’s $750m EV.  

 

 Decent selling pressure due to the passing of the previous CEO.  It seems his estate is liquidating his shares and this was mentioned in an earnings call as well.  Lots of insider buying beyond that.  
 

http://openinsider.com/search?q=Issc

 

Again, not a drone company but technically could be if they ever attain a pilotless cockpit.  Great thing about ISSC is that they are currently and historically profitable with some degree of a moat.  So they have funds to allocate to the R&D of a pilotless cockpit at a pace that makes sense based on regulations they see in the market…versus most other startups which lose money and have no hopes of making any. 
 

Also to note is their revenue is much less cyclical versus prior years as they have taken on more high quality clients via the military and Honeywell customers.  This is also mentioned in earnings calls.

[Saluki]

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2024/12/andurils-dive-xl-setting-new-standards-for-maritime-autonomy/

 

This Anduril ship uses batteries from Kraken, one of my small holdings, which hit a 52 week high today.   

 

Anduril, which isn't publicly traded unfortunately, also announced a new partnership with Palantir to use their AI for Anduril's sea and air drones, Possible applications for deployment on the Mexico boarder.  Palantir is already a $100 Billion dollar company though, so I don't know if this will move the needle for them. 

[Saluki]

On 11/19/2024 at 12:52 PM, Saluki said:

Probably too small a company for most people, and there isn't a separate post on here, but I'll add Mind Technology (MIND) to the list of drone companies that are off the beaten path.  They make underwater imaging stuff, like Kraken, which is useful for telecom, oil and gas, and defense industries, but not actual drones. Because I have a terrible track record with stuff that has cool tech but no profits, this is in the too hard pile for now. I'm mentioning it here, to keep all the drone stuff together so it's easier to find.

 

It's a very small company and if you do a search for "Mind Technology" the results will be overrun with websites for mediation, spirituality and  healing crystals.   What's interesting is that they had some sales, but they also had a callable 9% preferred stock. So the little cash that went in one door, went out the other door.  They recently converted the preferred to common.  Besides diluting the common, which sucks for the bag holders, the preferred holders who wanted a steady 9% payout were probably not happy about owning an illiquid micro cap common stock and the selling has cratered the stock price.  So while it's not profitable yet, by getting rid of the 9% financing, it may get to profitability soon.  In the watch pile until then, but if anyone has thoughts on it, feel free to chime in. 

 

I don't want to start a separate post for MIND because it's such a small company and I don't want to pump it and sell out or anything.  But is anyone familiar with these guys?  I bought a few shares so that I would see it when I log in and not forget to look for information, but it's gone on a tear in the past week or so since earnings.  Almost a double, but I don't own enough shares to do anything with the profits besides have a nice dinner. Their 10K is only 32 pages, so it's basically a pamphlet and not helpful at all.  I did find some stuff on their Klein sonar thing, and seems to have a good reputation, but it's already been sold to someone else. Their sonar stuff has obvious applications in the defense industry (and offshore oil and gas), but how does it stack up against their competitors?  I can see the advantage of good imaging tech that is in a sub looking at the seafloor for someone like Kraken, but the side scan radar stuff (radar on a boat scanning to the left and right of a vessel) doesn't seem that complicated.  Lots of fishing vessels have it, so what makes MIND's stuff better?  Or is it?  

 

Seems like much of the price action is just the fact that by converting the dividend paying preferred shares to common shares, it's moved from one of the thousands of "cool tech but no profit" small companies to one that actually can report a positive number at the end of the quarter. Anyone have thoughts on them?