Iran - Israel - Gaza Conflict

[Xerxes]

What you need to ask ourkid (instead of name calling) or asking for the moderator to intervene, is what evidence he has that genocide is being committed. 
 

here are some pointers since folks are excited about polarizing the thread again: 
 

1) large number of people dying in a war is not indicative of genocide. It is a tragedy on a biblical proportion, but not a systematic genocide. See #4
 

2) war crime and genocide are not the same thing. You can commit war crimes but not genocide. The reverse is harder to do …
 

3) what is the legal definition of genocide. Does Israel’ 30+ years of action meets it ? How about Hamas action toward Israel ? How about Iran and/or other …. Focus on actions not words. 
 

4) that said ….no genocide today doesn’t mean NO genocide tomorrow. Nothing is binary. 

Edited October 24 by Xerxes

[Spekulatius]

6 hours ago, ourkid8 said:

 
BBC is not a reliable source proving Israel was lying? I really don’t understand why that comment warrants a moderator. 

I am curious - do you think the IDF spokesman is lying when he shows the underground facility of Hamas beneath the hospital in Beirut?

[mcliu]

40 minutes ago, Xerxes said:

What you need to ask ourkid (instead of name calling) or asking for the moderator to intervene, is what evidence he has that genocide is being committed. 
 

here are some pointers since folks are excited about polarizing the thread again: 
 

1) large number of people dying in a war is not indicative of genocide. It is a tragedy on a biblical proportion, but not a systematic genocide. See #4
 

2) war crime and genocide are not the same thing. You can commit war crimes but not genocide. The reverse is harder to do …
 

3) what is the legal definition of genocide. Does Israel’ 30+ years of action meets it ? How about Hamas action toward Israel ? How about Iran and/or other …. Focus on actions not words. 
 

4) no genocide today doesn’t mean NOT genocide tomorrow. Nothing is binary. 

Bro, why don’t you read his post history in this thread. Dude defends Iran’s attack on Israel as self-defence.

 

Why can’t he support hamas and why are you so sure of his position?

[mcliu]

On 4/13/2024 at 4:28 PM, ourkid8 said:

 

Iran is exercising their right to defend themselves and Israel needs to be taught a lesson for the Genocidal acts they are committing against innocent individuals.    

@Xerxes

[Xerxes]

3 minutes ago, mcliu said:

Bro, why don’t you read his post history in this thread. Dude defends Iran’s attack on Israel as self-defence.

 

Why can’t he support hamas and why are you so sure of his position?

Because nothing is binary: 

 

i was born in Iran, don’t like the regime, and in fact think Iran and Israel should be natural allies as two non-Arabic state. That said I have no doubt that Tehran did what it had to do in April. It was bound to happen. In fact Bibi was counting on it. Though he keeps having a hard time dragging US into war with Iran. 
 

This is an investment forum where people pride themselves with Mungerism and being able to see two things at the same time. Yet when it comes to geopolitics everyone turns binary. 
 

I don’t get it. 

[ourkid8]

2 hours ago, mcliu said:

Hamas supporter ^

I take serious offence someone calling me a Hamas supporter.   

[ourkid8]

2 hours ago, Xerxes said:

how about not name calling or branding …. Just because you disagree 

 

you know as well as I do that @ourkid8 is not a Hamas supporter. Disagreeing with Israel is not being pro-Hamas.
 

Just as agreeing with Bibi doesn’t mean that you a racist genocidal fuck that wants to exterminate the Palestinians. 

 Thank you! 

[mcliu]

4 minutes ago, ourkid8 said:

I take serious offence someone calling me a Hamas supporter.   

Why so silent on Hamas atrocities such as murdering Israelis and using Palestinians as human shields then.

[ourkid8]

7 hours ago, Viking said:

@ourkid8, I will admit i do not fully understand the situation in the middle east all that well. i try and understand the big picture. This helps me process the specific events that are happening. Can you explain to me where Hamas and Hezbollah fit in to what is happening? 
 

I think it is true that Hamas has as part of its charter the destruction of Israel (and killing Israeli’s will get you to into heaven etc). I think Hezbollah is largely the same. Hamas is the government body of Gaza and Hezbollah is firmly in control of the government in Lebanon (at least it was). To come into power, both Hamas and Hezbollah killed off all those who stood in their way. My understanding is neither Hamas nor Hezbollah accept Israel's right to exist. As a result, they have no desire to peacefully co-exist with Israel. 

Very good question, my battery is at 6% and I need to give you a history lesson on Hamas - why they exists and who helped facilitate their funding.   Only then you can start to appreciate my strong views against a government who helped create this monster. 

Edited October 24 by ourkid8

[mcliu]

50 minutes ago, Xerxes said:

Because nothing is binary: 

 

i was born in Iran, don’t like the regime, and in fact think Iran and Israel should be natural allies as two non-Arabic state. That said I have no doubt that Tehran did what it had to do in April. It was bound to happen. In fact Bibi was counting on it. Though he keeps having a hard time dragging US into war with Iran. 
 

This is an investment forum where people pride themselves with Mungerism and being able to see two things at the same time. Yet when it comes to geopolitics everyone turns binary. 
 

I don’t get it. 

I hear you, the world is complex, people are complex, conflicts are complex.

 

However there is a difference between impersonal political analysis like how you framed Iran’s retaliation on Israel and openly supporting Iran’s regime as they “teach Israel a lesson”.

Look, I’m not judging, I’m just observing. People are free to support whoever they want, it’s a free country.

[mcliu]

 

1 hour ago, Xerxes said:

This is an investment forum where people pride themselves with Mungerism and being able to see two things at the same time. Yet when it comes to geopolitics everyone turns binary. 
 

I don’t get it. 

 

Maybe because of comments like this:

 

8 hours ago, ourkid8 said:

Israel continues to lie to justify their genocide on innocent individuals. I still cannot believe how delusional ppl are to believe the filth Israel continues to share. 

[ourkid8]

2 hours ago, Xerxes said:

What you need to ask ourkid (instead of name calling) or asking for the moderator to intervene, is what evidence he has that genocide is being committed. 
 

here are some pointers since folks are excited about polarizing the thread again: 
 

1) large number of people dying in a war is not indicative of genocide. It is a tragedy on a biblical proportion, but not a systematic genocide. See #4
 

2) war crime and genocide are not the same thing. You can commit war crimes but not genocide. The reverse is harder to do …
 

3) what is the legal definition of genocide. Does Israel’ 30+ years of action meets it ? How about Hamas action toward Israel ? How about Iran and/or other …. Focus on actions not words. 
 

4) that said ….no genocide today doesn’t mean NO genocide tomorrow. Nothing is binary. 

 

Another great question.  You are asking what acts of genocide is being committed but let's look at how genocide is defined as per UN article II

 

Article II In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

 

Can you honestly say with a clean conscious Israel is not meeting the definition?

[ourkid8]

47 minutes ago, mcliu said:

Why so silent on Hamas atrocities such as murdering Israelis and using Palestinians as human shields then.

 

I do not support killing of any innocent life - Jews, Muslims or anyone else and I do not support any group, organization or country who is performing such heinous acts.   Can you also say that?    

[Dinar]

10 minutes ago, ourkid8 said:

 

Another great question.  You are asking what acts of genocide is being committed but let's look at how genocide is defined as per UN article II

 

Article II In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

 

Can you honestly say with a clean conscious Israel is not meeting the definition?

According to this definition, any war is genocide.  Any siege, a method of warfare used since time immemorial is genocide.  If Israel wanted to commit genocide, it would just stop all water, food and fuel deliver to Gaza and 2MM+ Arabs in Gaza would be dead within three months.  Israel is the only country in the history of war that allows delivery of food and water to a county it is at war with.  Siege and starvation has been a war tactic for millennia.  If Bibi was smart, he would have stopped any and all food and water deliveries to Gaza and to any and all complaints said - we allow civilians to leave and once Hamas surrenders, we will not prevent Gaza Arabs from returning.  

But since you are so smart, how exactly would you wipe out Hamas & Hezbollah, too organizations dedicated to wiping Israel off the map.  By the way, Khomeini stated that it would be worth to see 20% of the world's muslims die to wipe Israel off the map. Nice allies you got...

[mcliu]

20 minutes ago, ourkid8 said:

 

I do not support killing of any innocent life - Jews, Muslims or anyone else and I do not support any group, organization or country who is performing such heinous acts.   Can you also say that?    

Same. I support peace.  
The faster Hamas and Hezbollah surrenders the faster we will have peace. 

How do you feel about Hamas using Palestinians as human shields? Or is that Israeli propaganda?

 

Edited October 24 by mcliu

[ourkid8]

8 hours ago, Viking said:

@ourkid8, I will admit i do not fully understand the situation in the middle east all that well. i try and understand the big picture. This helps me process the specific events that are happening. Can you explain to me where Hamas and Hezbollah fit in to what is happening? 
 

I think it is true that Hamas has as part of its charter the destruction of Israel (and killing Israeli’s will get you to into heaven etc). I think Hezbollah is largely the same. Hamas is the government body of Gaza and Hezbollah is firmly in control of the government in Lebanon (at least it was). To come into power, both Hamas and Hezbollah killed off all those who stood in their way. My understanding is neither Hamas nor Hezbollah accept Israel's right to exist. As a result, they have no desire to peacefully co-exist with Israel. 
 

When i hear people talk about Palestinians and they do not state their position on Hamas and Hezbollah i am not able to process or understand what they are saying. It is not possible to separate the people from government in power. 

 

To understand the big picture, you need to understand the history of how Hamas was created.  The blame lies squarely on the group who helped create this monster - Israel.  Israel wanted to undermine PLO and when the precursor to Hamas was founded in 1978, Israel was very keen on helping fund their projects and facilitate transfer of funds.  Please see the attached page on Israel support for Hamas:  Israeli support for Hamas - Wikipedia

 

As silly of a questions these may sound:

 

1. how many new Hamas members has Israeli created vs. what they have killed? - My bet is a significant net increase and will continue to increase the longer this war drags on and the death toll increases

2. How much is the Israeli government responsible for the deaths of innocent lives- on both sides Palestinian/Israeli? - They helped create this monster and support transfer of funds

3.  You referenced Hamas charter, how about Israel apartheid system in place which makes it near impossible to peacefully co-exist as Israel continue to be an occupier.  Israeli apartheid - Wikipedia

 

I want to again clearly state my position, I am pro human life and do not support any organization or Country who kills any innocent individuals.   

[ourkid8]

1 hour ago, mcliu said:

Same. I support peace.  
The faster Hamas and Hezbollah surrenders the faster we will have peace. 

How do you feel about Hamas using Palestinians as human shields? Or is that Israeli propaganda?

 

You never answered my question, can you also say you do not support ANY group and/or country who kills any innocent human life? 

Edited October 24 by ourkid8

[ourkid8]

1 hour ago, Dinar said:

According to this definition, any war is genocide.  Any siege, a method of warfare used since time immemorial is genocide.  If Israel wanted to commit genocide, it would just stop all water, food and fuel deliver to Gaza and 2MM+ Arabs in Gaza would be dead within three months.  Israel is the only country in the history of war that allows delivery of food and water to a county it is at war with.  Siege and starvation has been a war tactic for millennia.  If Bibi was smart, he would have stopped any and all food and water deliveries to Gaza and to any and all complaints said - we allow civilians to leave and once Hamas surrenders, we will not prevent Gaza Arabs from returning.  

But since you are so smart, how exactly would you wipe out Hamas & Hezbollah, too organizations dedicated to wiping Israel off the map.  By the way, Khomeini stated that it would be worth to see 20% of the world's muslims die to wipe Israel off the map. Nice allies you got...

Israeli authorities are still preventing humanitarian missions from reaching areas of northern Gaza with critical supplies including medicine and food for people under siege, the head of the U.N. Palestinian refugee agency UNRWA said on Monday.

Hospitals have been hit and are without power while injured people are left without care, Philippe Lazzarini said on X.

"@UNRWA remaining shelters are so overcrowded, some displaced people are now forced to live in the toilets. According to reports, people attempting to flee are getting killed, their bodies left on the street. Missions to rescue people from under the rubble are also being denied," he added.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-agency-says-israel-still-preventing-aid-reaching-northern-gaza-2024-10-21/#:~:text=Israel says it is getting,get access to north Gaza.

[Dinar]

7 minutes ago, ourkid8 said:

Israeli authorities are still preventing humanitarian missions from reaching areas of northern Gaza with critical supplies including medicine and food for people under siege, the head of the U.N. Palestinian refugee agency UNRWA said on Monday.

Hospitals have been hit and are without power while injured people are left without care, Philippe Lazzarini said on X.

"@UNRWA remaining shelters are so overcrowded, some displaced people are now forced to live in the toilets. According to reports, people attempting to flee are getting killed, their bodies left on the street. Missions to rescue people from under the rubble are also being denied," he added.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-agency-says-israel-still-preventing-aid-reaching-northern-gaza-2024-10-21/#:~:text=Israel says it is getting,get access to north Gaza.

UNRWA has been warning of starvation in Gaza for a year, how many people have died of starvation there?  Who is killing the people trying to flee?  UNRWA food supplies are given to Hamas, so cry me a river.   What does Mr Lazzarini suggest?  I have not heard one UN official call for Hamas to surrender.   Israel is not preventing anything from reaching Gaza.  Israel is NOT obligated to allow anybody to cross its territory to supply Gaza.  There is a difference between Israel not allowing passage through its territory and Israel blocking supplies.  Why doesn't UN deliver food by air or by ship? 

What are your suggestions?  How do you make sure that any food aid that reaches goes does not go Hamas terrorists?

As for Israeli occupation: a) there was no Israeli occupation in Gaza for two decades; b) Arafat was offered 98% of the West Bank + Gaza, he turned it down; c) Jews have lived in Judea and Samaria and Israel for 3,000 years, Arabs are the invaders and occupiers.  Look up anti-Jewish riots in the 1920s when Arabs killed hundreds of Jews in places like Hebron.

You talk about apartheid.  Read the Koran and the history of treatment of Christians and other non-Moslems by Moslems.  Now that's apartheid, including higher taxes. 

 

[ourkid8]

11 hours ago, Dinar said:

UNRWA has been warning of starvation in Gaza for a year, how many people have died of starvation there?  Who is killing the people trying to flee?  UNRWA food supplies are given to Hamas, so cry me a river.   What does Mr Lazzarini suggest?  I have not heard one UN official call for Hamas to surrender.   Israel is not preventing anything from reaching Gaza.  Israel is NOT obligated to allow anybody to cross its territory to supply Gaza.  There is a difference between Israel not allowing passage through its territory and Israel blocking supplies.  Why doesn't UN deliver food by air or by ship? 

What are your suggestions?  How do you make sure that any food aid that reaches goes does not go Hamas terrorists?

As for Israeli occupation: a) there was no Israeli occupation in Gaza for two decades; b) Arafat was offered 98% of the West Bank + Gaza, he turned it down; c) Jews have lived in Judea and Samaria and Israel for 3,000 years, Arabs are the invaders and occupiers.  Look up anti-Jewish riots in the 1920s when Arabs killed hundreds of Jews in places like Hebron.

You talk about apartheid.  Read the Koran and the history of treatment of Christians and other non-Moslems by Moslems.  Now that's apartheid, including higher taxes. 

 

 

I cannot even dignify a response when it comes to cutting off food, electricity, medical supplies on innocent ppl especially children - if you do not mind me asking what is the child death toll at?  I would recommend you look internally at yourself to see if you truly believe in what you wrote. 

 

a) Let me try to simplify it in terms you may understand - When Israel "pulled out" they kept control of Gaza's land boarders, sea waters, air and maintained population registry.  If you are born in Gaza, you need to register with Israel. Do you really really believe there was no Israeli occupation? Come on, let's stop insulting ppl's intelligence.       

Edited October 24 by ourkid8

[Dinar]

13 minutes ago, ourkid8 said:

 

I cannot even dignify a response when it comes to cutting off food, electricity, medical supplies on innocent ppl especially children - if you do not mind me asking what is the child death toll at?  I would recommend you look internally at yourself to see if you truly believe in what you wrote. 

 

a) Let me try to simplify it in terms you may understand - When Israel "pulled out" they kept control of Gaza's land boarders, sea waters, air and maintained population registry.  If you are born in Gaza, you need to register with Israel. Do you really really believe there was no Israeli occupation? Come on, let's stop insulting ppl's intelligence.       

Israel did not control the borders of Gaza. Provide proof that Israel controlled the border between Gaza and Egypt.  Provide proof that anybody born in Gaza had to register with Israel.  As for cutting off food, water, etc, name one war where one party provided it to another!

[cubsfan]

13 hours ago, ourkid8 said:

 

Another great question.  You are asking what acts of genocide is being committed but let's look at how genocide is defined as per UN article II

 

Article II In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

 

Can you honestly say with a clean conscious Israel is not meeting the definition?

 

This is a silly argument. 

Israel is the ONLY country in the world where the army (IDF) issues WARNINGS to civilians to evacuate BEFORE they take out a building. I have never seen this done - and of course - it's much to their military disadvantage to do so. The IDF has take great pains to limit civilian casualties.

 

And a terrorist government (Hamas) has NO regard for the life the Palestinian civilians.

Who in the world would DELIBERATELY place military targets beneath civilian hospitals and schools?

 

-- Only Hamas & Hezbollah - as they could care less about using their population as human shields.

 

Who would steals humanitarian aid & money from their own population to construct a underground tunnel and terror network, instead of feeding and building infrastructure for the benefit of their citizens?

 

-- Only Hamas and Hezbollah.

 

Using your own population as Human shields is both despicable and cowardly. And then your enemy comes in to feed the population - and you steal the food. I hope you've seen the clip where Hamas is executing young Palestinian men who tried to get to the aid before Hamas did. 

 

 

 

 

[cubsfan]

12 hours ago, ourkid8 said:

 

To understand the big picture, you need to understand the history of how Hamas was created.  The blame lies squarely on the group who helped create this monster - Israel.  Israel wanted to undermine PLO and when the precursor to Hamas was founded in 1978, Israel was very keen on helping fund their projects and facilitate transfer of funds.  Please see the attached page on Israel support for Hamas:  Israeli support for Hamas - Wikipedia

 

As silly of a questions these may sound:

 

1. how many new Hamas members has Israeli created vs. what they have killed? - My bet is a significant net increase and will continue to increase the longer this war drags on and the death toll increases

2. How much is the Israeli government responsible for the deaths of innocent lives- on both sides Palestinian/Israeli? - They helped create this monster and support transfer of funds

3.  You referenced Hamas charter, how about Israel apartheid system in place which makes it near impossible to peacefully co-exist as Israel continue to be an occupier.  Israeli apartheid - Wikipedia

 

I want to again clearly state my position, I am pro human life and do not support any organization or Country who kills any innocent individuals.   

 

Oh, so Israel wanted to undermine the PLO in 1978 AFTER the PLO massacred Israeli athletes at the 1972 Olympics in Munich??

 

You make no sense at all.

[cubsfan]

1 hour ago, ourkid8 said:

 

I cannot even dignify a response when it comes to cutting off food, electricity, medical supplies on innocent ppl especially children - if you do not mind me asking what is the child death toll at?  I would recommend you look internally at yourself to see if you truly believe in what you wrote. 

 

a) Let me try to simplify it in terms you may understand - When Israel "pulled out" they kept control of Gaza's land boarders, sea waters, air and maintained population registry.  If you are born in Gaza, you need to register with Israel. Do you really really believe there was no Israeli occupation? Come on, let's stop insulting ppl's intelligence.       

 

Who is cutting off the supplies to the Palestinians in Gaza??

 

It's Hamas. 

 

And you believe UNRWA??  

 

The same guys that had several UNRWA members that participated in the Oct 7th massacre.

The same guys that had hordes of weapons stored in their facilities for Hamas.

[ourkid8]

28 minutes ago, Dinar said:

Israel did not control the borders of Gaza. Provide proof that Israel controlled the border between Gaza and Egypt.  Provide proof that anybody born in Gaza had to register with Israel.  As for cutting off food, water, etc, name one war where one party provided it to another!

 

Simple example, if you were born in NY and had to register with a foreign country would you say you are occupied or not occupied? ICJ says gaza is occupied, this should be the end of the discussion. 

 

https://www.gov.il/en/Departments/units/population_registrar_unit