Iran - Israel - Gaza Conflict

[Dinar]

14 minutes ago, cubsfan said:

It's different because a defeated nation understands when to stop attacking their neighbor unless they want more of the same.

 

Jordan & Egypt have co-existed just fine for several years. The difference is they knew when to throw in the towel and make peace. The Hamas leadership ranks is getting mighty thin these days and Israel can play whack-a-mole for decades, if it's a decision between their survival and letting Gaza rebuild. The Palestinians will have to come to their own decision if they want peace. Ball in their court. Same for Lebanon - another failed state. Can't help them if they have a death wish.

 

Time will tell in this case.

Egypt never had a stake in the fight, and got paid handsomely with Sinai and US military aid.    So why do they care?   They don't have a stake.  They refused to take Gaza back.    Jordan is glad to wash its hands of the Palestinians.  Or have you forgotten who killed the current king's grandfather and the attempted uprising in Jordan by Palestinians in 1970 - Black September?  If you offered Judea and Samaria or West Bank with Jerusalem to Jordan, do you really think they will take it?  

[UK]

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2024-08-26/war-in-gaza-is-it-time-for-israel-to-break-iran-s-strangling-loop?srnd=homepage-europe

[Spekulatius]

I am with @Dinar in this case. Hamas will be reborn. War on terror does not really work unless root causes are eliminated and in this case they are not.

The USA was in Afghanistan for 20 years and never got fully in control. Fought the Taliban, then Al Quaeda , then ISIS etc then the Taliban again.

 

As long as the general populace supports a terrorist organization nothing short of destroying the entire population will destroy the terror organization either. If the general population stops supporting the terror organization then the terror organization will wither and dies out, but that’s not happening here.

[cubsfan]

1 hour ago, Spekulatius said:

I am with @Dinar in this case. Hamas will be reborn. War on terror does not really work unless root causes are eliminated and in this case they are not.

The USA was in Afghanistan for 20 years and never got fully in control. Fought the Taliban, then Al Quaeda , then ISIS etc then the Taliban again.

 

As long as the general populace supports a terrorist organization nothing short of destroying the entire population will destroy the terror organization either. If the general population stops supporting the terror organization then the terror organization will wither and dies out, but that’s not happening here.

 

I don't disagree. We are talking past each other. You said it perfectly - as long as the general population supports the terrorist government, it will never die. The Gazans are committed to misery until till this happens.

[changegonnacome]

You can't destroy nationalism..its an idea....indeed it might be the truly BIG idea of the last 500yrs....to say your going to destroy Hamas is to say that somehow you might be able to destroy the Palestinians aspiration for national self-determination inside a sovereign vehicle recognised as country.......not some self-governing autonomous region......or municipal authority.....these are the diet cokes of nationalism....outsourcing the mgmt of Gaza to Egypt & Jordan doesn't cut it either......true national sovereignty is full sugar Coke....and everybody can tell the difference.

 

Hamas is the violent expression of Palestinian nationalism...the paramilitary/terrorist wing of Palestinian nationalism...I think its possible that you can quiet down the violent expression of that nationalistic aspiration...shrink it for a while..but only if those that have chosen diplomacy as a vehicle to that nationalism can show genuine progress.....which requires of course Israel to come to the table with a workable plan which somewhere down the road ends in a Palestinian state.

 

The great irony of course is that USA should understand nationalism better than anybody being a former British colony that engaged in a violent struggle to break free.......and the Jewish state is the ultimate expression of the BIG idea I spoke about.....the issue of course is one I sympathise with the Israelis.....which is what country in its right mind....already in a bad neighbourhood.....would willingly create another sovereign country right on its doorstep that has a high probability of becoming a existential threat over time.

 

In this respect......the strategy Israel is pursuing...as brutal as it is...is of course highly rational and optimizes the most important variable which is the long run survival of Israel.

 

Edited August 27 by changegonnacome

[Dinar]

5 hours ago, changegonnacome said:

You can't destroy nationalism..its an idea....indeed it might be the truly BIG idea of the last 500yrs....to say your going to destroy Hamas is to say that somehow you might be able to destroy the Palestinians aspiration for national self-determination inside a sovereign vehicle recognised as country.......not some self-governing autonomous region......or municipal authority.....these are the diet cokes of nationalism....outsourcing the mgmt of Gaza to Egypt & Jordan doesn't cut it either......true national sovereignty is full sugar Coke....and everybody can tell the difference.

 

Hamas is the violent expression of Palestinian nationalism...the paramilitary/terrorist wing of Palestinian nationalism...I think its possible that you can quiet down the violent expression of that nationalistic aspiration...shrink it for a while..but only if those that have chosen diplomacy as a vehicle to that nationalism can show genuine progress.....which requires of course Israel to come to the table with a workable plan which somewhere down the road ends in a Palestinian state.

 

The great irony of course is that USA should understand nationalism better than anybody being a former British colony that engaged in a violent struggle to break free.......and the Jewish state is the ultimate expression of the BIG idea I spoke about.....the issue of course is one I sympathise with the Israelis.....which is what country in its right mind....already in a bad neighbourhood.....would willingly create another sovereign country right on its doorstep that has a high probability of becoming a existential threat over time.

 

In this respect......the strategy Israel is pursuing...as brutal as it is...is of course highly rational and optimizes the most important variable which is the long run survival of Israel.

 

Of course you can!  Germans are not asking for Sudenland - a place where they had lived for 500+ years.   Greeks are not asking for return of their historical lands in Turkey, neither are Armenians!  They both had lived in Anatolia for more than 2000 years.  

[changegonnacome]

@Dinar your response calls out two sovereign nations…who actually have a nation….does that nation extend to every inch of the land they might like…..no….but they have a nation…a homeland….a sovereign one recognized by the UN.

 

So sorry your argument on the face makes no sense….the Palestinians aspire to any nation and don’t have one….at all….like do folks realize Gaza isn’t a country….its a controlled territory…with devolved authority…but make no mistake about it….the reason people talk about a TWO state solution….cause currently there is only ONE - Israel. 
 

Sovereignty is a funny thing…..99% is rarely enough….ask the US colonies in the 1700’s….especially the Charter ones like Connecticut….CT looked a hell of a lot like the Gaza/West Bank <> Israel relationship from an administration point of view….but total self-determination inside a nation state is the end point of nationalism. 

 

 

[Dinar]

1 hour ago, changegonnacome said:

@Dinar your response calls out two sovereign nations…who actually have a nation….does that nation extend to every inch of the land they might like…..no….but they have a nation…a homeland….a sovereign one recognized by the UN.

 

So sorry your argument on the face makes no sense….the Palestinians aspire to any nation and don’t have one….at all….like do folks realize Gaza isn’t a country….its a controlled territory…with devolved authority…but make no mistake about it….the reason people talk about a TWO state solution….cause currently there is only ONE - Israel. 
 

Sovereignty is a funny thing…..99% is rarely enough….ask the US colonies in the 1700’s….especially the Charter ones like Connecticut….CT looked a hell of a lot like the Gaza/West Bank <> Israel relationship from an administration point of view….but total self-determination inside a nation state is the end point of nationalism. 

 

 

80% of Jordan's population are descendants of Arabs from West Bank, which by the way came from Arabia and Jordan.    If Jordan is not a Palestinian state in all but name, then what is it?  

[Xerxes]

@dinar

 

aren’t local Jewish people not of the same root as Arabs. I.e Semitic folks. 
 

 

[Dinar]

5 minutes ago, Xerxes said:

@dinar

 

aren’t local Jewish people not of the same root as Arabs. I.e Semitic folks. 
 

 

Well, they are both Semites.  Who knows.  According to the Islamic tradition, Arabs are children of Abraham by Hagar, if I am not mistaken, and Jews are his children by Sarah (I think.)  I only read the old Testament and the New Testament (some three dozen years ago), flipped through the Koran and never read the Jewish holy books (Tanah, Talmud, the Prophets, etc...)

[Xerxes]

53 minutes ago, Dinar said:

Well, they are both Semites.  Who knows.  According to the Islamic tradition, Arabs are children of Abraham by Hagar, if I am not mistaken, and Jews are his children by Sarah (I think.)  I only read the old Testament and the New Testament (some three dozen years ago), flipped through the Koran and never read the Jewish holy books (Tanah, Talmud, the Prophets, etc...)

you have a lot of patience. 
 

when it comes to “ancient books”, the most ancient i have read is the Edward Gibbons’ Decline and Fall of Roman Empire and that was 15 years ago. 
 

I ll do that again anytime over any holy books. 

[Dinar]

18 minutes ago, Xerxes said:

you have a lot of patience. 
 

when it comes to “ancient books”, the most ancient i have read is the Edward Gibbons’ Decline and Fall of Roman Empire and that was 15 years ago. 
 

I ll do that again anytime over any holy books. 

Gibbons was a good book.  I really like books by Simon Sebag Montifiore (court of the Red Czar) and Fernaund Braudel 

[changegonnacome]

1 hour ago, Dinar said:

80% of Jordan's population are descendants of Arabs from West Bank, which by the way came from Arabia and Jordan.    If Jordan is not a Palestinian state in all but name, then what is it?  

 

I'll take your pivot to a cockmammie theory about Jordan being some defacto Palestinian nation state as a kind of acknowledgment that you concede to my points above re: nationalism & Palestinian aspirations in the space........the Palestinians aspire to a nation state....because there is no nation state....by your theory...we've already got a two state solution in Middle East which makes me laugh....you should let Bibi know....the day after problem has been solved.

[Xerxes]

Ufffff 

700 page on Joseph Stalin 

[Dinar]

2 hours ago, changegonnacome said:

 

I'll take your pivot to a cockmammie theory about Jordan being some defacto Palestinian nation state as a kind of acknowledgment that you concede to my points above re: nationalism & Palestinian aspirations in the space........the Palestinians aspire to a nation state....because there is no nation state....by your theory...we've already got a two state solution in Middle East which makes me laugh....you should let Bibi know....the day after problem has been solved.

I don't care for Bibi.  Actually, what you call a cockmammie theory was the original plan by the British - modern Jordan, called Transjordan to become an Arab state, and everything west of the Jordan river to become a Jewish state.   

There is no Palestinian people.  There are Arab people, who have lived for at least two thousand years in modern Jordan and Saudi Arabia.  Not sure, but I do not think that they lived in Egypt or Lebanon before the Muslim conquest.  Similarly, Syrians, at least 2000 ago were distinct from the Arabs, and Romans distinguished between Syrians and Arabs.   

I hate to remind you, but the place west of the Jordan River  was called Israel, Judea and Samaria until the Romans renamed it Palestina after one of the Judean revolts - either 133 AD or 72 AD.  The people who lived their were Jews and Samaritans.   Arabs did not live there.  Gaza was called Gaza for ages, and while Jews have lived there for millenia, I don't know who else lived there besides the Jews, although clearly non-Jews have lived in Gaza as well for thousands of years.  

There was another Semitic people - the Nabateans, who built Petra, they may have been wiped out in the Arab conquest.  I am not well versed in Nabatean history.  

[cubsfan]

There is never going to be a two state solution. The Palestinians that live in Gaza can not be trusted. They had every opportunity to do great things with Gaza, and they elected Hamas, took all the aid money and used it for the destruction of Israel.

 

Israel would have to be crazy to give them any of Israel's land. The Palestinians have Gaza and the West Bank. There is not a prayer of a chance that Israel can trust the Palestinians again. They have broken every promise they've made. When Israel turned Gaza over to the Palestinians and pulled all the Jews out - for a promise of peace - look what happen - disaster.

 

And now you want a two state solution? 

 

All Israel can do is try and control them and defend their nation.

[73 Reds]

11 hours ago, Dinar said:

I don't care for Bibi.  Actually, what you call a cockmammie theory was the original plan by the British - modern Jordan, called Transjordan to become an Arab state, and everything west of the Jordan river to become a Jewish state.   

There is no Palestinian people.  There are Arab people, who have lived for at least two thousand years in modern Jordan and Saudi Arabia.  Not sure, but I do not think that they lived in Egypt or Lebanon before the Muslim conquest.  Similarly, Syrians, at least 2000 ago were distinct from the Arabs, and Romans distinguished between Syrians and Arabs.   

I hate to remind you, but the place west of the Jordan River  was called Israel, Judea and Samaria until the Romans renamed it Palestina after one of the Judean revolts - either 133 AD or 72 AD.  The people who lived their were Jews and Samaritans.   Arabs did not live there.  Gaza was called Gaza for ages, and while Jews have lived there for millenia, I don't know who else lived there besides the Jews, although clearly non-Jews have lived in Gaza as well for thousands of years.  

There was another Semitic people - the Nabateans, who built Petra, they may have been wiped out in the Arab conquest.  I am not well versed in Nabatean history.  

Good post and history lesson.  Facts sometimes have a way of getting into the way of some people's opinions, particularly when it comes to personal agendas.  

[cubsfan]

^^^ Absolutely - it seems that so many people just don't understand Middle East history. It's almost like the Jews were never there, and are total newcomers.  When in fact they were there for hundreds of years before Islam.

 

In the end, some societies decide they can live side-by-side with others and display tolerance.

In the age of radical Islam - that has just gone out the window.

[changegonnacome]

9 hours ago, Dinar said:

There is no Palestinian people.

 

So about 5 million Palestinian people disagree with you......to say nothing of the c.3bn people globally who live in the 145 nation states who've decided that the Palestinians are indeed a people and so by extension recognise Palestine as a State.

 

The funny thing about nationalism....is it doesn't technically require a blood line......or a history per se in a geography....nationalism is reflexive....it exists because it is believed by enough people, in a particular concentrated geography......we all think of ourselves as American or Canadian....yet none of our forefathers we're here 550yrs ago....they were in Europe....so funny that these ethnic history lessons go back thousands of years to try and prove or disprove an what 

 

American nationalism....was architected and imagined in British colonies by ethnic Europeans.....it was created out of thin air in the minds of the people who lived here.

 

The European Union....is a 1970's era attempt to create a hybrid nationalism which sits above the nation states of Europe...that you could be both German and European at same time...its a neat cognitive trick to attempt to stop the wars of the past.....we'll find out if it works in about another 200yrs.....Northern Ireland is an example of the same......at the heart of peace agreement there is kind of reflexive & flexible nationalism....at its heart is the idea that one can be.... British or Irish or both at the same time....its a kind of attempt at ala carte nationalism not seeking to deny anybodies idea of who they might be.

 

But anyway If I take your theory on face value....what I would say is that if the Palestinian 'people' never existed by history or geography.....they most certainly exist now.....their 'struggle' real or imagined is a pretty good petri dish for a nationalistic origin story/narrative to emerge & multiply as a meme...indeed if you go back far enough we were all just primordial soup and so nations & nationalism are relatively new idea across the arc of time....as I said the big idea of the last 500yrs is nationalism......and in some ways modern Israel then (if Palestinian never existed) helped birth Palestinian nationalism.....and now five million of them are there and they aren't going away.

 

7 hours ago, cubsfan said:

There is not a prayer of a chance that Israel can trust the Palestinians again.

 

I agree  - I think Israel would be crazy to create the sovereign State of Palestine on its doorstep.......and as the leader of that country I would not pursue any process that has this as near or medium term objective..........the stakes are too high for 'my' people.....I think the probabilities that that State would turn around in time and become an existential threat to Israel are just way too high to roll the dice on.

 

The uncomfortable reality with that strategy is that (1) another Oct 7th is inevitable in time because, as I've said, nationalistic aspirations cannot be 'destroyed' via military operations they just reconstitute later and (2) if your pursuing a ONE state solution which is the logical reality of a non-two state solution....its very hard for Israel to claim to be a liberal democracy....one human, one vote is kind of the on/off filter on that definition......given that the one state solution functions only as a Jewish state at the democratic exclusion of the Palestinian populations who live in greater Israel then well you get what you get.

 

But I mean who cares if we call them Palestinians or not.....lets call them Arabs then....but actually lets forget the ethnic classification....they are, I think we can agree, human beings?....and they live in a country where via regionalization and kind of ethnic gerrymandering....they've been effectively excluded from sovereign state level democracy....albeit devoled but limited autonomy has been granted to them....but as I've said devolved autonomy..or 98% soverignity.....doesnt butter nationalisms parsnips...it is a hungry beast hell bent on 100%

 

People can call that what they want....the kids on college campuses call it apartheid....which seems to trigger a certain generation who like to be on the side of the angels and we're re: South Africa, ANC & Nelson Mandela.....the cognitive dissonance is too much for these folks re: Israel / Palestine so they go into mental geographic & historical gymnastics to get where they need to be psychologically & morally...example above....Palestinians, are not Palestinians, they are just Arabs...Response:..ok, fine...they are Arabs living in Israel...then give them a vote....but you can't while preserving a jewish state...and so the circular argument continues.

 

In this regard perhaps I find myself in an unusual position which I hear very few people articulate or openly admit too.

 

I recognize the Palestinian people as a people and their aspiration (not their methods) for sovereignty has legitimacy under a kind of self-determination / democratic philosophy I have. I'm not some fringe minority here....145 countries of the 190-odd countries in the United Nations recognizes Palestine...or about 3bn global citizens...I mean thats alot of people who have come to an incorrect conclusion if so.

 

Yet and this is the big yet that I hope helps some folks not dismiss me as some kind of anti-semite.........I recognize and support fully the State of Israel....its creation and its continuation....the Israelis are my kind of people......but that does not stop me from also identifying Israel as operating a de facto apartheid state which does not fit my or any definition of a liberal democracy. The facts just won't comport with any other definition or conclusion.

 

Israel is more akin to a theocratic state - ala Vatican city & ironically Iran...and they should go ahead, cut the bullshit and be unapologetic about that. It has never really been a secular democracy as it claims - there was a time when perhaps it could pretend to be but that is long gone just given the demographics inside its borders that had to change. This decidedly undemocratic governance structure is the only one that now makes sense.....to protect the overarching goal which is a Jewish homeland for Jews.

 

So I fully support the theocratic state strategy for Israel which in practise is a one state solution......pragmatism recognizes it as the best of alot of terrible options that is open to them as we sit here today......which yes in day-to-day operation results in let's call it kindly a 'democratic deficit' in the area again we might call to keep the peace 'Greater Israel'.

 

IMO - they should continue this strategy until such a time as the threat dynamics in the Middle East change wholly for the better..their survival is at stake......and should act like it until Iran's theocratic regime collapses, Qatar terror funding ends and the vast majority of the Palestinian population living in Greater Israel have a miraculous conversion to peace etc.

 

What I despise most re: the Middle East situation......is the relentless spinning...& twisting of facts......by all sides....nobody can quite claim perfect divinity there........cause this is real life in all its complicated glory...of course I have 'my' side and its Israel.....without a second thought...if I had too.....I'd put on a Star of David & rush into to help my Jewish brothers against the jihadists..I find the Muslim culture & philosophy with its tilting to brutality against women & minorities repulsive..but you know you won't catch me lying to myself around the reality on the other side of the ledger either which I support.

 

[73 Reds]

14 minutes ago, changegonnacome said:

 

So about 5 million Palestinian people disagree with you......to say nothing of the c.3bn people globally who live in the 145 nation states who've decided that the Palestinians are indeed a people and so by extension recognise Palestine as a State.

 

The funny thing about nationalism....is it doesn't technically require a blood line......or a history per se in a geography....nationalism is reflexive....it exists because it is believed by enough people, in a particular concentrated geography......we all think of ourselves as American or Canadian....yet none of our forefathers we're here 550yrs ago....they were in Europe....so funny that these ethnic history lessons go back thousands of years to try and prove or disprove an what 

 

American nationalism....was architected and imagined in British colonies by ethnic Europeans.....it was created out of thin air in the minds of the people who lived here.

 

The European Union....is a 1970's era attempt to create a hybrid nationalism which sits above the nation states of Europe...that you could be both German and European at same time...its a neat cognitive trick to attempt to stop the wars of the past.....we'll find out if it works in about another 200yrs.....Northern Ireland is an example of the same......at the heart of peace agreement there is kind of reflexive & flexible nationalism....at its heart is the idea that one can be.... British or Irish or both at the same time....its a kind of attempt at ala carte nationalism not seeking to deny anybodies idea of who they might be.

 

But anyway If I take your theory on face value....what I would say is that if the Palestinian 'people' never existed by history or geography.....they most certainly exist now.....their 'struggle' real or imagined is a pretty good petri dish for a nationalistic origin story/narrative to emerge & multiply as a meme...indeed if you go back far enough we were all just primordial soup and so nations & nationalism are relatively new idea across the arc of time....as I said the big idea of the last 500yrs is nationalism......and in some ways modern Israel then (if Palestinian never existed) helped birth Palestinian nationalism.....and now five million of them are there and they aren't going away.

 

 

I agree  - I think Israel would be crazy to create the sovereign State of Palestine on its doorstep.......and as the leader of that country I would not pursue any process that has this as near or medium term objective..........the stakes are too high for 'my' people.....I think the probabilities that that State would turn around in time and become an existential threat to Israel are just way too high to roll the dice on.

 

The uncomfortable reality with that strategy is that (1) another Oct 7th is inevitable in time because, as I've said, nationalistic aspirations cannot be 'destroyed' via military operations they just reconstitute later and (2) if your pursuing a ONE state solution which is the logical reality of a non-two state solution....its very hard for Israel to claim to be a liberal democracy....one human, one vote is kind of the on/off filter on that definition......given that the one state solution functions only as a Jewish state at the democratic exclusion of the Palestinian populations who live in greater Israel then well you get what you get.

 

But I mean who cares if we call them Palestinians or not.....lets call them Arabs then....but actually lets forget the ethnic classification....they are, I think we can agree, human beings?....and they live in a country where via regionalization and kind of ethnic gerrymandering....they've been effectively excluded from sovereign state level democracy....albeit devoled but limited autonomy has been granted to them....but as I've said devolved autonomy..or 98% soverignity.....doesnt butter nationalisms parsnips...it is a hungry beast hell bent on 100%

 

People can call that what they want....the kids on college campuses call it apartheid....which seems to trigger a certain generation who like to be on the side of the angels and we're re: South Africa, ANC & Nelson Mandela.....the cognitive dissonance is too much for these folks re: Israel / Palestine so they go into mental geographic & historical gymnastics to get where they need to be psychologically & morally...example above....Palestinians, are not Palestinians, they are just Arabs...Response:..ok, fine...they are Arabs living in Israel...then give them a vote....but you can't while preserving a jewish state...and so the circular argument continues.

 

In this regard perhaps I find myself in an unusual position which I hear very few people articulate or openly admit too.

 

I recognize the Palestinian people as a people and their aspiration (not their methods) for sovereignty has legitimacy under a kind of self-determination / democratic philosophy I have. I'm not some fringe minority here....145 countries of the 190-odd countries in the United Nations recognizes Palestine...or about 3bn global citizens...I mean thats alot of people who have come to an incorrect conclusion if so.

 

Yet and this is the big yet that I hope helps some folks not dismiss me as some kind of anti-semite.........I recognize and support fully the State of Israel....its creation and its continuation....the Israelis are my kind of people......but that does not stop me from also identifying Israel as operating a de facto apartheid state which does not fit my or any definition of a liberal democracy. The facts just won't comport with any other definition or conclusion.

 

Israel is more akin to a theocratic state - ala Vatican city & ironically Iran...and they should go ahead, cut the bullshit and be unapologetic about that. It has never really been a secular democracy as it claims - there was a time when perhaps it could pretend to be but that is long gone just given the demographics inside its borders that had to change. This decidedly undemocratic governance structure is the only one that now makes sense.....to protect the overarching goal which is a Jewish homeland for Jews.

 

So I fully support the theocratic state strategy for Israel which in practise is a one state solution......pragmatism recognizes it as the best of alot of terrible options that is open to them as we sit here today......which yes in day-to-day operation results in let's call it kindly a 'democratic deficit' in the area again we might call to keep the peace 'Greater Israel'.

 

IMO - they should continue this strategy until such a time as the threat dynamics in the Middle East change wholly for the better..their survival is at stake......and should act like it until Iran's theocratic regime collapses, Qatar terror funding ends and the vast majority of the Palestinian population living in Greater Israel have a miraculous conversion to peace etc.

 

What I despise most re: the Middle East situation......is the relentless spinning...& twisting of facts......by all sides....nobody can quite claim perfect divinity there........cause this is real life in all its complicated glory...of course I have 'my' side and its Israel.....without a second thought...if I had too.....I'd put on a Star of David & rush into to help my Jewish brothers against the jihadists..I find the Muslim culture & philosophy with its tilting to brutality against women & minorities repulsive..but you know you won't catch me lying to myself around the reality on the other side of the ledger either which I support.

 

Thanks for your thoughtful post.  The issue is, and always has been antisemitism.  No numbers of "Palestinians" and their supporters will cause a mistaken belief of entitlement to a tiny sliver of land based on a false identity to be any more true.  And to your point, no one whose number one goal is extinguishing your neighbor deserves an ounce of recognition.  In that vein, the UN building should be padlocked and later used as a homeless shelter.

[HubbadaPow]

I'm reading Niall Ferguson's "House of Rothschild" at the moment.  It's striking to me that during the 18th and early 19th centuries the Zionist movement was apparently mostly pushed by the British, German, French, and Austrians (non-Jews) who wanted to push the Jews out of Europe and into their ancestral homeland.  I mean, at some point you have to ask yourself what they're supposed to do to make the world happy.  

[handycap5]

17 minutes ago, HubbadaPow said:

I'm reading Niall Ferguson's "House of Rothschild" at the moment.  It's striking to me that during the 18th and early 19th centuries the Zionist movement was apparently mostly pushed by the British, German, French, and Austrians (non-Jews) who wanted to push the Jews out of Europe and into their ancestral homeland.  I mean, at some point you have to ask yourself what they're supposed to do to make the world happy.  

 

I recommend Walter Russell Mead's book The Arc of a Covenant on an exhaustive history of the European-American-Israeli foreign relations. 

[cubsfan]

3 hours ago, changegonnacome said:

 

So about 5 million Palestinian people disagree with you......to say nothing of the c.3bn people globally who live in the 145 nation states who've decided that the Palestinians are indeed a people and so by extension recognise Palestine as a State.

 

This logic does not work with me. So what? There are something like 60 Muslim countries in the world - and they all hate Jews - so what does that prove?  They hate Israel too....

 

Do they hate Jordan for not accepting the Palestinians?  Of course not!

 

It's much easier to be anti-semites - like the ridiculous United Nations and their constant condemnations of Israel.

 

All you proven with your logic is most of the world is antisemitic. That does not make them right.

 

Even now, in the good old USA, we are seeing brazen, out in the open antisemitism. Much of Europe is brazenly anti-semitic. Just look the contrast between Ukraine and Israel. 

Ukraine has the right to defend themselves 100%, but Israel has no such right. Israel must ceasefire and not respond. The UN is fucking joke.

 

This would have been unthinkable 5 years ago - but it's the new fad for the rest of these countries to blame Israel

Edited August 28 by cubsfan

[Xerxes]

47 minutes ago, HubbadaPow said:

I'm reading Niall Ferguson's "House of Rothschild" at the moment.  It's striking to me that during the 18th and early 19th centuries the Zionist movement was apparently mostly pushed by the British, German, French, and Austrians (non-Jews) who wanted to push the Jews out of Europe and into their ancestral homeland.  I mean, at some point you have to ask yourself what they're supposed to do to make the world happy.  

I bought those two books in 2011. 
never got around to them. 
 

it is went too much in the details in the first third of the first book. Maybe I ll make them a 2025 project. 

[changegonnacome]

2 hours ago, 73 Reds said:

And to your point, no one whose number one goal is extinguishing your neighbor deserves an ounce of recognition.

 

Correct - it is an untenable position...to seek national sovereignty from those that might grant it......while out the other side of your mouth you whisper dreams of their destruction.

 

Nation states chief responsibility is to ensure their survival over time......enabling the creation of a country on your doorstep that one day might come streaming across your border with guns and tanks is a dereliction of that duty.