rkbabang Posted January 31, 2018 Author Share Posted January 31, 2018 Is Etherium better to invest in for long term or Bitcoin ? I read a paper that was posted here says Bitcoin was better blockchain technology but then I read great things about Etherium too. You need to be very clear on WHY you're investing in this. In the long-term - a holding of Bitcoin is probably a worthwhile thing. You will have some wealth that is always portable, no matter what happens to you. You will also have experience in what will probably become a 'core' crypto coin (complete with futures & options markets). It does not mean buy it today. In the nearer term, Etherium will make you familiar with how blockchain smart contract solutions can be applied across many different applications - but Ether token is not a substitute for Etherium stock (it's private). The solutions are where the money is, and the beneficiaries are the companies applying them (some of which are public). The downside is that distributed ledger applications have scaling limitations. To 'make' wealth one concentrates - to 'preserve' wealth one diversifies. To 'make' wealth in this game, you need to be a partner in a JV building a blockchain smart contract solution. If that's part of the plan - Etherium is probably the better choice. Notable is that it cannot be decided by conventional investment 'metrics' They don't exist yet. SD There is no doubt that Etherium is excellent technology, but will it be a good investment buying at today's prices? I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wachtwoord Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 Is Etherium better to invest in for long term or Bitcoin ? I read a paper that was posted here says Bitcoin was better blockchain technology but then I read great things about Etherium too. Did you not read the research I shared here a few weeks ago? Ethereum is 2 orders of magnitude overvalued. Both these are true: 1. Smart contracts are an interesting technology. 2. Ethereum is a horrible investment at today's prices (or at any recent price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spekulatius Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Whilst I am a layman in crypto, I think the question I’d which one is the better store of wealth and which one is the better underlying technology to facilitate transactions. For the latter it seems Etherium, for the former it is most likely Bitcoin. If you want to invest in the technology though, purchasing the underlying token (Ether) is not the way to do it, you need to invest in a company that owns or uses the technology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liberty Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/31/technology/bitfinex-bitcoin-price.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SharperDingaan Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 .... so at this time trying to see which one is Google and which one is Yahoo. It's too early to make this determination. Quite a few folks would suggest that it is more likely to be those providing database blockchain/smart contract services via the cloud - simply because they are scaleable. A material consideration if your proposed business application could easily generate 20,000 new blocks/month that need to process in seconds, versus < 1,000 new blocks/month that could take minutes/hours to process on a distributed ledger. You demonstrate your 'proof of concept' on Etherium (Distributed Ledger) - you implement it on IBM/SAP (Database), and do it 'in house'. Tuition wise, your time would be better spent looking at how this technology affects the operations of a business - versus whether X or Y is the better investment. UoT has a handy 2-day course in the subject ;) SD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnarkyPuppy Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Whilst I am a layman in crypto, I think the question I’d which one is the better store of wealth and which one is the better underlying technology to facilitate transactions. For the latter it seems Etherium, for the former it is most likely Bitcoin. If you want to invest in the technology though, purchasing the underlying token (Ether) is not the way to do it, you need to invest in a company that owns or uses the technology. The store of value thesis is sufficient in its own right to do very well on a crypto investment. Right now, bitcoin is the clear winner, but the facts may change. Advantages of bitcoin as it pertains to store of value: - current winner in terms of network effects - minimal attack surface (minimal and simplistic code as compared to other cryptoassets eg Ethereum) - 8 years of history with 0 downtime - An almost religious-like story behind the creation/founder which is not to be underestimated (humans are attached to stories - and money itself is a story) - higher transaction fees - debatable topic but I actually prefer transaction fees stay where they are (equal to or less than a stock commission). Store of value is generally (not always) decoupled from units of exchange (pls read the PDF posted a few pages back for more on this). Some Risks: - Proof of stake (or another consensus mechanism) proves to be a more effective method of providing a store of value. I can see a small possibility that the staking/"dividends" associated with ethereum after the move to PoS may be viewed as a better form of store of value than bitcoin - better governance model - see "decred" token. Also think this is small probability bc of eteorn effects, but decred seeks to reduce the power held by miners by adding a sort of "2fa" to the validation process by those who stake financial incentive - Scalability is solved and the perception of store of value is eroded (currency arguably less valuable than store of value) - Privacy coins - store of value is arguably even better in a private form (whereas bitcoin is fully transparent) Fortunately the asymmetry at current prices makes hedging out these risks cheap and effective Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liberty Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 This crypto bubble popping will be different from the last one due to the sheer volume of litigation to which it will give rise. We are already seeing this with the class actions. Once the template is proven, the floodgates will open. No coin will be safe. Will be interesting to see how Silicon Valley reacts when all of the "users" it has been so hungrily chasing down transmogrify into "plaintiffs." It has a _Gremlins_ feel to it. "Don't give him any water. Never feed him after midnight. Don't sell him unregistered securities." https://twitter.com/prestonjbyrne/status/959120498381787136 https://twitter.com/prestonjbyrne/status/959120951597326338 https://twitter.com/prestonjbyrne/status/959122421856067585 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liberty Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Anyone has an idea what could be a good price to jump in for bitcoin and etherinium if bubble may pop? Nobody can tell you that. Be very skeptical of anyone who says they can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkbabang Posted February 1, 2018 Author Share Posted February 1, 2018 Do you trust buying GBTC in retirement portfolio? It is the only option for exposure to Crypto in retirement fund but not sure if it is a reliable trust fund (Not planning to buy at these prices but when it falls more between $1 and $2) https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/GBTC?p=GBTC Unless Grayscale Investments and/or Xapo, Inc are a total frauds, my largest concern would be the safety of their holdings. This page (https://grayscale.co/bitcoin-investment-trust/) says: "Robust security and storage The Bitcoin Investment Trust’s assets are stored with Xapo, Inc., as Custodian, in deep cold storage vaults. Bitcoin stored in the Xapo Vaults reside on multisignature addresses, the private keys for which are protected by intense cryptographic, physical and process security." I don't know. As I've said a bunch of times already, I like to control my own keys. But if you do trust Grayscale and Xapo to both not be frauds and to be secure from hacking and theft then 1 share of GBTC = 0.00100721 BTC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liberty Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Do you trust buying GBTC in retirement portfolio? It is the only option for exposure to Crypto in retirement fund but not sure if it is a reliable trust fund (Not planning to buy at these prices but when it falls more between $1 and $2) https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/GBTC?p=GBTC Isn't GBTC selling way above NAV (net asset value)? Any investment you buy should be something you understand and are comfortable with. Not because someone on some forum told you to. You don't know us, some of us might sound convincing, but maybe we have no idea what we're talking about. But your money is real and I'm sure you worked hard for it. Don't fall for FOMO (fear of missing out), it usually ends badly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkbabang Posted February 1, 2018 Author Share Posted February 1, 2018 Do you trust buying GBTC in retirement portfolio? It is the only option for exposure to Crypto in retirement fund but not sure if it is a reliable trust fund (Not planning to buy at these prices but when it falls more between $1 and $2) https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/GBTC?p=GBTC Isn't GBTC selling way above NAV (net asset value)? Any investment you buy should be something you understand and are comfortable with. Not because someone on some forum told you to. You don't know us, some of us might sound convincing, but maybe we have no idea what we're talking about. But your money is real and I'm sure you worked hard for it. Don't fall for FOMO (fear of missing out), it usually ends badly. +1. That is why I pointed out that 1 share of GBTC = 0.00100721 BTC. If you do buy this take that into account. Investing in BTC is risky enough without paying a large premium above market prices for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SharperDingaan Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Just a quick FYI for those in the Toronto area, with an interest in crypto-token, block chain, smart contracts, etc. Look at the 'Finance' and 'Innovation' sections. https://learn.utoronto.ca/courses-programs/business-professionals/courses/skill-builder-series SD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liberty Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-02/bofa-to-decline-all-cryptocurrency-transactions-on-credit-cards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SharperDingaan Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 Flying to Toronto is too expensive for me. Anything in US? Just a quick FYI for those in the Toronto area, with an interest in crypto-token, block chain, smart contracts, etc. Look at the 'Finance' and 'Innovation' sections. https://learn.utoronto.ca/courses-programs/business-professionals/courses/skill-builder-series SD There will be an on-line version this Fall. As at the beginning of last Fall there was nothing that I know of in the US - including Harvard! SD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SharperDingaan Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 The smartest thing you can do right now - is educate yourself in the technology. Forget the FOMO - crypto will be around for a long time, and it's hard to short. As at yesterday there are 1,512 tokens/coins in the world - about 131 (9.5%) MORE than they were, just ONE month ago https://coinmarketcap.com/all/views/all/ . Pick 2-3 of the more obscure coins/tokens of interest & do a little research on them. SD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liberty Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 Scene straight out of the big short: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-01/a-bitcoin-conference-rented-a-miami-strip-club-regrets-ensued Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurgis Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 Scene straight out of the big short: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-01/a-bitcoin-conference-rented-a-miami-strip-club-regrets-ensued Strippers declined to take cryptos for lapdances? Bitcoin conference motto: "Invest in crypto and get screwed!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wachtwoord Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 It's safest to assume all ICOs are scams or very bad investments. A waste of time to spend your time reading about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spekulatius Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 Scene straight out of the big short: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-01/a-bitcoin-conference-rented-a-miami-strip-club-regrets-ensued I guess every bubble goes through a stripclub phase, right before it pops. it appears like the mortgage / RE bubble had a strip club phase. I can personally attest to the telecom bubble in 2000 having a strip club phase - there we’re plenty good ones in Ottawa at that time. Now here we are in the crypto strip club phase. History does not exactly repeat, but it it does rhyme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SharperDingaan Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 What should I look for? There isn’t much info on website of most. They have max supply and circulating supply numbers listed. Can they not increase the max supply? They also don't say what is unique that they can't be duplicated (or may be I don't understand). I read that Ripple will be close to zero as time goes on as an example, and therefore what exactly to look for in these ICO’s? Everyone seems to be starting ICO’s. For example this cloakcoin, lists no names on the team just alias. Weird. https://www.cloakcoin.com/resources/cloak-team.pdf The smartest thing you can do right now - is educate yourself in the technology. Forget the FOMO - crypto will be around for a long time, and it's hard to short. As at yesterday there are 1,512 tokens/coins in the world - about 131 (9.5%) MORE than they were, just ONE month ago https://coinmarketcap.com/all/views/all/ . Pick 2-3 of the more obscure coins/tokens of interest & do a little research on them. SD You've just learnt what most ICO's are - a whitepaper, a sketchy website, nothing 'patentable', a VERY 'questionable' ICO issuance, and often a token limit - indirectly tied to the 21M maximum of Bitcoin. You've learnt that if you put this stuff into a closed end investment fund, you can sell units in the fund at a 30% premium - when they should be sellling at a discount. And also learnt that it's these 'fund co's' and exchanges that get hacked (& your token stolen) versus the Bitcoin.org oracle itself. If you come from capital markets - you also know how to use Bitcoin options and futures to advantage; on the assumption that a falling tide lowers all boats. The technology behind crypto-token is the distributed ledger, the blockchain, and the smart-contract. Your value add will be in learning how this works, keeping an open mind, and thinking outside the box. Sadly there's almost always a frat-boy 'blow-out', that is the human part of most market tops (movies get made). It's also a reliable indicator that the party is reaching its end - so use accordingly. SD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wachtwoord Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 Simple, what you refer to as "Wallet apps" are not wallets. Run Bitcoin core, control your own keys: https://bitcoin.org/en/download Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SharperDingaan Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 Is there a reliable source for mining cost of bitcoin? Is this $530 value as mining cost real? Mining cost of $89.00 for Etherium? I suspect the mining cost could go down by tapping solar energy. Lowest cost of mining bitcoin is $530 - $600. So could it drop as low as $530 - $600 ? Etherium mining cost is about $89.00 . Trying to see how low could these drop when bubble pops fully. ============================================================================= According to the data, Venezuela was named as the cheapest place in the world to mine a single Bitcoin – $530. This was followed by Trinidad and Tobago ($1,190), and Uzbekistan ($1,790). https://businesstech.co.za/news/banking/221837/the-cost-of-mining-bitcoin-in-south-africa-vs-other-countries/ Depending on your power prices it will cost anywhere from $600 (at 3 cents per Kwh) to $1,800 (at 9 cents per Kwh) to mine one coin. https://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2018/01/16/bitcoin-mining-uses-as-much-power-as-ireland-and-why-thats-not-a-problem/ It's not far off - one of the papers on this thread suggests Etherium was spending around $1M/day. It's also (in part) why some are skeptical of the Bitcoin 21M coin limit - as the choices are either pay this per transaction, or pay nothing if new token are issued. Most likely as initial additional token up to the amount thought 'lost' over the years (therefore still a maximum 21M), then maybe 1% year thereafter - 'forever'. Controversial. SD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nodnub Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 Thank you. That makes sense. Does that mean I need to save my desktop all the time to preserve the downloaded software or it downloads just the bitcoin code in a specific folder so that I can save that folder in an online backup or to a USB? Simple, what you refer to as "Wallet apps" are not wallets. Run Bitcoin core, control your own keys: https://bitcoin.org/en/download Emily, if you run bitcoin core, it downloads the whole blockchain.. "Bitcoin Core initial synchronization will take time and download a lot of data. You should make sure that you have enough bandwidth and storage for the full block chain size (over 145GB)" If you do run bitcoin-core, I think you only need to back up your wallet address and private key to preserve your account. That takes almost no storage space at all. But if you lose that you lose all your bitcoins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nodnub Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 No, it's clearly not the real cost.... it's a simplified comparison based purely on electricity cost. Firstly, it's doubtful that they used the volume rate electricity cost, which can be more expensive than the cost for small consumer accts in some countries. Secondly, Venezuela with power cost of $530 is obviously an outlier because they have heavily subsidized electricity cost. It is difficult and dangerous to mine bitcoin in Venezuela and you can expect the police and govt to try to seize your equipment to run it themselves. There was a recent news article about this. You have to smuggle the equipment into VZ and then you have to defend the equipment and mine in secrecy. You also can't concentrate all your equipment in one location due to risk of seizure. Thirdly, this fake "mining cost" does not include the capital cost of the mining hardware, which is significant. As the bitcoin algorithm difficulty keeps growing, the hardware may be uneconomic to use for mining within a year or two. Fourth, there are real costs in labour in setting up, managing the mining equipment, securing it, possibly upgrading power service from the power company, rent, etc. Is there a reliable source for mining cost of bitcoin? Is this $530 value as mining cost real? Mining cost of $89.00 for Etherium? I suspect the mining cost could go down by tapping solar energy. Lowest cost of mining bitcoin is $530 - $600. So could it drop as low as $530 - $600 ? Etherium mining cost is about $89.00 . Trying to see how low could these drop when bubble pops fully. ============================================================================= According to the data, Venezuela was named as the cheapest place in the world to mine a single Bitcoin – $530. This was followed by Trinidad and Tobago ($1,190), and Uzbekistan ($1,790). https://businesstech.co.za/news/banking/221837/the-cost-of-mining-bitcoin-in-south-africa-vs-other-countries/ Depending on your power prices it will cost anywhere from $600 (at 3 cents per Kwh) to $1,800 (at 9 cents per Kwh) to mine one coin. https://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2018/01/16/bitcoin-mining-uses-as-much-power-as-ireland-and-why-thats-not-a-problem/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liberty Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now