Longnose Posted February 11 Posted February 11 18 minutes ago, [email protected] said: I am ETH biased and see a lot of Bitcoin lovers here. Just curious, what do you guys think of Ethereum when compare with Bitcoin? I believe there is a place for it. I dont consider it a currency. Its not decentralized. I hold a very small amount. I believe it will continue to be the forefront of smart contracts and other Web3/blockchain innovation. (first mover advantage and most developers creating things for it) IMO BTC will outperform ETH. BTC is the only one that I will hold long term and continue to accumulate.
Vish_ram Posted February 11 Posted February 11 Here is what I struggle to find the value. BTC - "Rai stones of the yap" on internet. Gaining traction. Non-crypto folks putting their savings in it. So conceptually working XRP - All projects are in pilot stage, no real world usage and traction of cross border payments ETH - what non-crypto companies are using it?
[email protected] Posted February 11 Posted February 11 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Vish_ram said: 1. A shit coin 2. unlimited supply (as per protocol) 3. lost race to BTC as store of value 4. losing mind/market share to other shit coins 5. No real world traction of using it for smart/dumb contracts 6. Market is a voting machine in the long run and voting it as a shit coin 1. Why is ETH a shit coin? 2. Do you know the inflation rate of ETH is lower than BTC over the last 3y? 3. The race is still on. BTC got 7Y running first before ETH was born. But ETH is growing fast. 4. This is quite true. But ETH always had competition in the past. Nothing surprise here. The moat are still strong. 5. Disagree. We can the real world adoption through metrice like user base and asset base on Ethereum. 6. Not that quote is corect from Ben Graham. Edited February 11 by [email protected]
james22 Posted February 11 Posted February 11 34 minutes ago, [email protected] said: I am ETH biased and see a lot of Bitcoin lovers here. Just curious, what do you guys think of Ethereum when compare with Bitcoin? There is no second best.
[email protected] Posted February 11 Posted February 11 12 minutes ago, Longnose said: I believe there is a place for it. I dont consider it a currency. Its not decentralized. I hold a very small amount. I believe it will continue to be the forefront of smart contracts and other Web3/blockchain innovation. (first mover advantage and most developers creating things for it) IMO BTC will outperform ETH. BTC is the only one that I will hold long term and continue to accumulate. 1. Why do think ETH is not decentralized? 2. Wonder your thought on the security issues of BTC long term?
[email protected] Posted February 11 Posted February 11 3 minutes ago, james22 said: There is no second best. This is a conclusion. May I asking for the arguments?
Vish_ram Posted February 11 Posted February 11 (edited) 17 minutes ago, [email protected] said: 1. Why is ETH a shit coin? 2. Do you know the inflation rate of ETH is lower than BTC over the last 3y? 9 minutes ago, [email protected] said: This is a conclusion. May I asking for the arguments? The first mover advantage, use as store of value (as opposed to currency), traction and growth makes is harder for late comers to become a store of value. I'm aware that ETH hasn't inflated last 5 years but it hasn't been accepted as store of value. You don't see corporates, countries use ETH as a reserve. It is a hammer in search of a nail. A tool in search of a use case in non-crypto world. ETH may find value as a currency but still not cheap enough, it'll still lose out to Layer 2 of BTC. It cannot compete against XRP and win. It can still act as a platform for dApps. But the market hasn't expanded to non-crypto world. When was the last time an average non-crypto person is forced to use some ETH platform in the background? I've not seen that yet. Please let me know. If we've such a case, then what's the NPV of that. BTC being a store of value can get market share from Gold, investment properties, equities, bond market etc. BTW, @[email protected] , your knowledge of ETH is infinitely more than mine, what's the growth and NPV of ETH dApps? how does it compare to current ETH value? Edited February 11 by Vish_ram
[email protected] Posted February 11 Posted February 11 3 minutes ago, james22 said: If you don't believe me or don't get it, I don't have time to try to convince you, sorry. I think he wrote a white paper before said that.
wachtwoord Posted February 11 Posted February 11 1 hour ago, [email protected] said: I am ETH biased and see a lot of Bitcoin lovers here. Just curious, what do you guys think of Ethereum when compare with Bitcoin? Inherently centralized by design (through complexity) and therefore crap as an investment (the units arent valuable). Since inception it has only become more centralized.
rkbabang Posted February 11 Author Posted February 11 26 minutes ago, [email protected] said: 1. Why do think ETH is not decentralized? 2. Wonder your thought on the security issues of BTC long term? 1. It had a pre-mine making it decentralized from the start, then it became proof of stake which will guarantee that it will be increasingly centralized and controlled by the largest holders. No non-proof-of-work coin will ever be decentralized. It is just fiat on the internet. 2. I think it is currently the most secure network man-kind has ever built and long term the security will increase to the point that no nation-state or groups of nation-states, nor all the nation-states on earth working together could ever hope to break it.
wachtwoord Posted February 11 Posted February 11 1 minute ago, rkbabang said: 1. It had a pre-mine making it decentralized from the start, then it became proof of stake which will guarantee that it will be increasingly centralized and controlled by the largest holders. No non-proof-of-work coin will ever be decentralized. It is just fiat on the internet. It was always going to be centralized due to inherent complexity. But next those things also reverting transactions (so breaking immutability) and having a single person (corruptable, black-mailable and generally fallible as any person is) in control of all decisions, made it all that much worse.
rkbabang Posted February 11 Author Posted February 11 2 minutes ago, wachtwoord said: It was always going to be centralized due to inherent complexity. But next those things also reverting transactions (so breaking immutability) and having a single person (corruptable, black-mailable and generally fallible as any person is) in control of all decisions, made it all that much worse. Yes, and then it became proof of stake making it even worse.
rkbabang Posted February 11 Author Posted February 11 To sum it up, ETH started out bad, got worse, then got even worse, then worse still, then far worse.
[email protected] Posted February 11 Posted February 11 49 minutes ago, Vish_ram said: The first mover advantage, use as store of value (as opposed to currency), traction and growth makes is harder for late comers to become a store of value. I'm aware that ETH hasn't inflated last 5 years but it hasn't been accepted as store of value. You don't see corporates, countries use ETH as a reserve. It is a hammer in search of a nail. A tool in search of a use case in non-crypto world. ETH may find value as a currency but still not cheap enough, it'll still lose out to Layer 2 of BTC. It cannot compete against XRP and win. It can still act as a platform for dApps. But the market hasn't expanded to non-crypto world. When was the last time an average non-crypto person is forced to use some ETH platform in the background? I've not seen that yet. Please let me know. If we've such a case, then what's the NPV of that. BTC being a store of value can get market share from Gold, investment properties, equities, bond market etc. BTW, @[email protected] , your knowledge of ETH is infinitely more than mine, what's the growth and NPV of ETH dApps? how does it compare to current ETH value? 1. Agree. Bitcoin got first mover advantage with very good brand as a store of value asset. But Bitcoin have some long tail risks like: security budget, centralization, quantumn. Also Bitcoin requires Custody to sell/buy. Most BTC are sell/buy on centralized exchange curently. 2. XRP is not serious tech I think. Bitcoin L2 is an idea copied from Ethereum. Bitcoin L2 cannot compete with Ethereum L2s because of Bitcoin constrain in Data Avalability/Tech. 3. Prety sure many people including Elon Musk used Polymarket during last election. Polymarket is build on Polygon an Ethereum sidechain. 4. Stablecoin is a real world use case. A lot of people in EM use USD stablecoin to store value. Tether the largest stable issuer making 14B profit last year with about 100 employees. Ethereum has largest market share in stablecoin(>60%). 5. Having said that, agree that Crypto still early and need more break out app. Biden admin tried to kill crypto last 4y did not help. Hope this admin can fix that.
TwoCitiesCapital Posted February 11 Posted February 11 1 hour ago, Vish_ram said: 1. A shit coin 2. unlimited supply (as per protocol) 3. lost race to BTC as store of value 4. losing mind/market share to other shit coins 5. No real world traction of using it for smart/dumb contracts 6. Market is a voting machine in the long run and voting it as a shit coin +1 1 hour ago, [email protected] said: 1. Why is ETH a shit coin? Has few of the characteristics that lend to BTCs value. This is especially true after the move to PoS where power/control is even further centralized. Additionally, even before PoS, ETH has a history of rewriting transactions. Is it really an immutable/decentralized ledger if some group can just hard fork it to change transactions they don't like and throw the bulk of power/support/coins behind this altered narrative/history? What characteristics actually make it valuable? 1 hour ago, [email protected] said: 2. Do you know the inflation rate of ETH is lower than BTC over the last 3y? It doesn't matter. There is no enforceability/repeatability to that. The inflation rate can go higher, or lower, based on issuance and network fee burn/usage. It's going higher at the moment. And just like it has in the past, the policy can change. There is zero certainty. Meanwhile, we can be certain of what BTCs will be because it's the same as it was 15 years ago. 1 hour ago, [email protected] said: 3. The race is still on. BTC got 7Y running first before ETH was born. But ETH is growing fast. Perhaps. But what systems that provide any real use case value are on ETH? I like Chainlink and think it will do well if we ever actually get a decentralized financial network, but hard for me to understand the value add here for decentralization. Centralized ledges can do everything ETH does cheaper and faster while BTC now has basic programmability for when you absolutely need an uncensored/irreversible settlement. What does ETH do? 1 hour ago, [email protected] said: 5. Disagree. We can the real world adoption through metrics like user base and asset base on Ethereum. What real world value is there so far? There is some interesting stuff/developments with DAOs as a new way or organizing, but even those don't require a decentralized ledger necessarily. Remittance payments/stablecoins is a valuable use case, but one that is highly likely to be usurped by the formal digital dollar when released. And more so - this activity alone doesn't support current size of ETh network valuation and is much more ably handled by L2 anyways - so value doesn't accrue to L1. When I dabbled in DeFi in 2021/2022, everything was based on yield farming tokens, or earning transaction fees staking stable coins pulls for conversion between one and another, or staking derivative exchanges that traded crypto derivatives. The entire economy was circular....and still is 4 years later. Where is the development to bring real world on chain? If I'm Schwab and decide to tokenize stocks, why would I use ETH instead of my own internal ledger OR some agreed upon industry standard/protocol? 1 hour ago, [email protected] said:
[email protected] Posted February 11 Posted February 11 46 minutes ago, rkbabang said: 1. It had a pre-mine making it decentralized from the start, then it became proof of stake which will guarantee that it will be increasingly centralized and controlled by the largest holders. No non-proof-of-work coin will ever be decentralized. It is just fiat on the internet. 2. I think it is currently the most secure network man-kind has ever built and long term the security will increase to the point that no nation-state or groups of nation-states, nor all the nation-states on earth working together could ever hope to break it. Compare Proof Of Stake with Proof Of Work from Vitalik: What are the benefits of proof of stake as opposed to proof of work? See A Proof of Stake Design Philosophy for a more long-form argument. In short: No need to consume large quantities of electricity in order to secure a blockchain (e.g. it's estimated that both Bitcoin and Ethereum burn over $1 million worth of electricity and hardware costs per day as part of their consensus mechanism). Because of the lack of high electricity consumption, there is not as much need to issue as many new coins in order to motivate participants to keep participating in the network. It may theoretically even be possible to have negative net issuance, where a portion of transaction fees is "burned" and so the supply goes down over time. Proof of stake opens the door to a wider array of techniques that use game-theoretic mechanism design in order to better discourage centralized cartels from forming and, if they do form, from acting in ways that are harmful to the network (e.g. like selfish mining in proof of work). Reduced centralization risks, as economies of scale are much less of an issue. $10 million of coins will get you exactly 10 times higher returns than $1 million of coins, without any additional disproportionate gains because at the higher level you can afford better mass-production equipment, which is an advantage for Proof-of-Work. Ability to use economic penalties to make various forms of 51% attacks vastly more expensive to carry out than proof of work - to paraphrase Vlad Zamfir, "it's as though your ASIC farm burned down if you participated in a 51% attack
SnarkyPuppy Posted February 11 Posted February 11 ETH has a terrible value accrual mechanism given their scaling w/ L2s. This is demonstrably true as shown via gas fees/revenue. If anything, you should be bullish SOL long-term over ETH given adoption. BTC is the clear winner. But I still have not heard a convincing argument to the security budget issue. One user above misinterpreted what this meant - my sense is that many holders of BTC are unaware/ignorant to the problem.
wachtwoord Posted February 11 Posted February 11 3 hours ago, [email protected] said: Compare Proof Of Stake with Proof Of Work from Vitalik: What are the benefits of proof of stake as opposed to proof of work? See A Proof of Stake Design Philosophy for a more long-form argument. In short: No need to consume large quantities of electricity in order to secure a blockchain (e.g. it's estimated that both Bitcoin and Ethereum burn over $1 million worth of electricity and hardware costs per day as part of their consensus mechanism). Because of the lack of high electricity consumption, there is not as much need to issue as many new coins in order to motivate participants to keep participating in the network. It may theoretically even be possible to have negative net issuance, where a portion of transaction fees is "burned" and so the supply goes down over time. Proof of stake opens the door to a wider array of techniques that use game-theoretic mechanism design in order to better discourage centralized cartels from forming and, if they do form, from acting in ways that are harmful to the network (e.g. like selfish mining in proof of work). Reduced centralization risks, as economies of scale are much less of an issue. $10 million of coins will get you exactly 10 times higher returns than $1 million of coins, without any additional disproportionate gains because at the higher level you can afford better mass-production equipment, which is an advantage for Proof-of-Work. Ability to use economic penalties to make various forms of 51% attacks vastly more expensive to carry out than proof of work - to paraphrase Vlad Zamfir, "it's as though your ASIC farm burned down if you participated in a 51% attack Proof of stake leads to centralization and kills any security. Come on this was tried back in 2013 with Peercoin (and copy cats after) there's no reason to be making this mistake in 2025!
Fly Posted February 12 Posted February 12 7 hours ago, james22 said: There is no second best. Truly this. Everything else is a waste of time and money.
[email protected] Posted February 12 Posted February 12 (edited) 8 hours ago, rkbabang said: 1. It had a pre-mine making it decentralized from the start, then it became proof of stake which will guarantee that it will be increasingly centralized and controlled by the largest holders. No non-proof-of-work coin will ever be decentralized. It is just fiat on the internet. 2. I think it is currently the most secure network man-kind has ever built and long term the security will increase to the point that no nation-state or groups of nation-states, nor all the nation-states on earth working together could ever hope to break it. Mining has economic of scale advantage, leading to more centralization overtime. Bitcoin is quite centralized now when 4 mining farms control over 60% hashrate power as in this chart. Edited February 12 by [email protected]
[email protected] Posted February 12 Posted February 12 (edited) 7 hours ago, TwoCitiesCapital said: +1 Has few of the characteristics that lend to BTCs value. This is especially true after the move to PoS where power/control is even further centralized. Additionally, even before PoS, ETH has a history of rewriting transactions. Is it really an immutable/decentralized ledger if some group can just hard fork it to change transactions they don't like and throw the bulk of power/support/coins behind this altered narrative/history? What characteristics actually make it valuable? It doesn't matter. There is no enforceability/repeatability to that. The inflation rate can go higher, or lower, based on issuance and network fee burn/usage. It's going higher at the moment. And just like it has in the past, the policy can change. There is zero certainty. Meanwhile, we can be certain of what BTCs will be because it's the same as it was 15 years ago. Perhaps. But what systems that provide any real use case value are on ETH? I like Chainlink and think it will do well if we ever actually get a decentralized financial network, but hard for me to understand the value add here for decentralization. Centralized ledges can do everything ETH does cheaper and faster while BTC now has basic programmability for when you absolutely need an uncensored/irreversible settlement. What does ETH do? What real world value is there so far? There is some interesting stuff/developments with DAOs as a new way or organizing, but even those don't require a decentralized ledger necessarily. Remittance payments/stablecoins is a valuable use case, but one that is highly likely to be usurped by the formal digital dollar when released. And more so - this activity alone doesn't support current size of ETh network valuation and is much more ably handled by L2 anyways - so value doesn't accrue to L1. When I dabbled in DeFi in 2021/2022, everything was based on yield farming tokens, or earning transaction fees staking stable coins pulls for conversion between one and another, or staking derivative exchanges that traded crypto derivatives. The entire economy was circular....and still is 4 years later. Where is the development to bring real world on chain? If I'm Schwab and decide to tokenize stocks, why would I use ETH instead of my own internal ledger OR some agreed upon industry standard/protocol? 1. Supply/hardfork issue. Both Bitcoin and Ethereum has goverment at social layer. Meaning that the economic policy can change if community agree. Now this is very hard to swallow but Bitcoin with 21M hardcap supply can also change if the community agree to hardfork. Bitcoin hardfork had happen in the past and will happen in the future as well. 2. The rewriting history of Ethereum is true in 2016 DAO hack. But this is just like a normal hardfork. Anyone dont agree with the hardfork and want to continue with no rewriting version, they can follow new network called Ethereum Classic. This is a goverment at the social layer. Bitcoin also had the hardfork in 2017 as well and anyone dont agree with the hardfork can continue with new network called Bitcoin Cash. Current version of Bitcoin and Ethereum both are harkforked version. Edited February 12 by [email protected]
[email protected] Posted February 12 Posted February 12 (edited) 8 hours ago, TwoCitiesCapital said: +1 Has few of the characteristics that lend to BTCs value. This is especially true after the move to PoS where power/control is even further centralized. Additionally, even before PoS, ETH has a history of rewriting transactions. Is it really an immutable/decentralized ledger if some group can just hard fork it to change transactions they don't like and throw the bulk of power/support/coins behind this altered narrative/history? What characteristics actually make it valuable? It doesn't matter. There is no enforceability/repeatability to that. The inflation rate can go higher, or lower, based on issuance and network fee burn/usage. It's going higher at the moment. And just like it has in the past, the policy can change. There is zero certainty. Meanwhile, we can be certain of what BTCs will be because it's the same as it was 15 years ago. Perhaps. But what systems that provide any real use case value are on ETH? I like Chainlink and think it will do well if we ever actually get a decentralized financial network, but hard for me to understand the value add here for decentralization. Centralized ledges can do everything ETH does cheaper and faster while BTC now has basic programmability for when you absolutely need an uncensored/irreversible settlement. What does ETH do? What real world value is there so far? There is some interesting stuff/developments with DAOs as a new way or organizing, but even those don't require a decentralized ledger necessarily. Remittance payments/stablecoins is a valuable use case, but one that is highly likely to be usurped by the formal digital dollar when released. And more so - this activity alone doesn't support current size of ETh network valuation and is much more ably handled by L2 anyways - so value doesn't accrue to L1. When I dabbled in DeFi in 2021/2022, everything was based on yield farming tokens, or earning transaction fees staking stable coins pulls for conversion between one and another, or staking derivative exchanges that traded crypto derivatives. The entire economy was circular....and still is 4 years later. Where is the development to bring real world on chain? If I'm Schwab and decide to tokenize stocks, why would I use ETH instead of my own internal ledger OR some agreed upon industry standard/protocol? 1. Chainlink. The main product of Chainlink of Chainlink Price Feed(Oracle service) which is used mainly for DeFi on Ethereum. 2. Centralized ledgers are similar to Intranet Network while public blockchain as Ethereum is similar to Internet Network. Public/Open Internet democratize access/publish information. Public/Open Blockchain democratize access/publish value. People predict most assets will be tokenized on Blockchain: Fiat Currency(through Stablecoin), TBill, TBond, Corp Bond, Stock, Real Estate, Crowd Funding, IP, Art Collection... Think $100T of assets will be tokenized and trading 24/7 Globally on public blockchain. See this from Larry Fink of Blackrock: . Edited February 12 by [email protected]
[email protected] Posted February 12 Posted February 12 6 hours ago, SnarkyPuppy said: ETH has a terrible value accrual mechanism given their scaling w/ L2s. This is demonstrably true as shown via gas fees/revenue. If anything, you should be bullish SOL long-term over ETH given adoption. BTC is the clear winner. But I still have not heard a convincing argument to the security budget issue. One user above misinterpreted what this meant - my sense is that many holders of BTC are unaware/ignorant to the problem. It's true that Ethereum is getting small fee from L2s. But this is a new market and is in growth phase. Dozen of Ethereum Layer 2 are launching and attracting user base and asset base. This is pushing the fee up as in below chart. Scaling through Layer 2 is the right strategy if we want to bring billions of people onchain. The Internet is running on millions of Servers. The Blockchain that can serves billions of people will be run on thousands/millions of Layer 2. The monolithic architecture of Solana face the dilemma between scaling and decentralization. Solana is scarifying decentralization currently to have high throughput.
[email protected] Posted February 12 Posted February 12 9 hours ago, TwoCitiesCapital said: +1 Has few of the characteristics that lend to BTCs value. This is especially true after the move to PoS where power/control is even further centralized. Additionally, even before PoS, ETH has a history of rewriting transactions. Is it really an immutable/decentralized ledger if some group can just hard fork it to change transactions they don't like and throw the bulk of power/support/coins behind this altered narrative/history? What characteristics actually make it valuable? It doesn't matter. There is no enforceability/repeatability to that. The inflation rate can go higher, or lower, based on issuance and network fee burn/usage. It's going higher at the moment. And just like it has in the past, the policy can change. There is zero certainty. Meanwhile, we can be certain of what BTCs will be because it's the same as it was 15 years ago. Perhaps. But what systems that provide any real use case value are on ETH? I like Chainlink and think it will do well if we ever actually get a decentralized financial network, but hard for me to understand the value add here for decentralization. Centralized ledges can do everything ETH does cheaper and faster while BTC now has basic programmability for when you absolutely need an uncensored/irreversible settlement. What does ETH do? What real world value is there so far? There is some interesting stuff/developments with DAOs as a new way or organizing, but even those don't require a decentralized ledger necessarily. Remittance payments/stablecoins is a valuable use case, but one that is highly likely to be usurped by the formal digital dollar when released. And more so - this activity alone doesn't support current size of ETh network valuation and is much more ably handled by L2 anyways - so value doesn't accrue to L1. When I dabbled in DeFi in 2021/2022, everything was based on yield farming tokens, or earning transaction fees staking stable coins pulls for conversion between one and another, or staking derivative exchanges that traded crypto derivatives. The entire economy was circular....and still is 4 years later. Where is the development to bring real world on chain? If I'm Schwab and decide to tokenize stocks, why would I use ETH instead of my own internal ledger OR some agreed upon industry standard/protocol? It's true that a lot of yield in DeFi is still circular. But real world yield from TBill/TBond also presented in DeFi on Ethereum. For example, if you hold USDC on Coinbase Wallet, you get 4% yield. This yield is from TBill. BlackRock also has tokenized money market fund BUIDL on Ethereum that offers tbill yield. "If I'm Schwab and decide to tokenize stocks, why would I use ETH instead of my own internal ledger OR some agreed upon industry standard/protocol?" Because of Liquidity/User. If you list your tokenized stock on Ethereum, you will have a chance to access hundred of billions of liquidity and millions of users. This is the same reason of lot of companies from foreign want to list on US market because of deep liquidity and rich users. Tbh, the liquidity/user on Ethereum is still small when compare to NYSE/NASDAD. But things will improve/growth. Just think how online commerce(Amazon) has improved/growth compared to tradition retail(Walmart).
Dave86ch Posted February 12 Posted February 12 16 hours ago, [email protected] said: This is a conclusion. May I asking for the arguments? Proof of Work
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