Economic War-US/G7/West vs China (semiconductors)

[crs223]

US stance against China (chip/tech) is because China is a threat. China is getting stronger.  This is obvious to me at least.

 

If it turns out that US stance against China is the right thing (aka it improves the position of the US in the long term) then i will be blown away and gain newfound respect for our politicians.  I hope this is the case.

 

China is pumping out well disciplined STEM grads at 10x the rate of US.  US students are focused on proper pronouns and denouncing their own country.

 

Has the US done enough homework that it has figured out to strategically hurt China in the long term?  Is “chip exports” the silver bullet?  If so, I will give high praise to US leaders.  I would love to be a fly on the wall of the CCP to understand the true impact of chips/Apple/etc.

 

I don’t see how ethnic imprisonment or COVID are related to any of this “cold war”.  I doubt the generals/IC/politicians care one bit about the victims.

[Luca]

9 hours ago, Sweet said:

Luca - you can’t be serious with this post lol?

 

China has just thrown people into prison.  There are about 1 million or more people in ‘education’ camps - yes it is a Mafia state, that’s exactly what it is.

I am not sure that the US is completely unguilty here. Julian Assange and Snowden come to mind. We had Guantanamo Bay Detention Camps in the US where the exact Uyghurs that are in education camps in China today were tortured in US prisons. Not in the same size as in China but we could find problems in both countries. Does not make them mafia states IMO.

9 hours ago, Sweet said:

 

China have deliberately ran a surplus with Western countries by i) pegging their currency and keeping it artificially weak, ii) enjoying most favoured nation status from most Western nations whilst preventing access to Western companies and goods through trade restrictions, iii) using the proceeds from their economic model to state funds businesses, buy up companies around the world, and put Western companies out of business, and iv) steal intellectual property from anywhere they can.

 

They’re a parasite state who the West have allowed to hollow out their industrial base by unfair and unbalanced trade practices, and as thanks they have built up their military to challenge us.  This is after the West rescued them from the Japanese in World War II.

 

If I was President, all trade would stop with China in my first term, and I would trade with democratic countries that play fair.  That would be my number one priority.  It would hurt but it needs done.

 

 

The West wanted to make business in china and access to their markets, China did its own economic policies to their own benefit. States funding businesses is not something bad per se, as i said TSMC was statebacked, Airbus i believe was also statebacked. You cant just spawn some businesses without governments and the only way to bring up ones own local industries is to close it off to some degree. Otherwise we would have US multinationals in China and no Baba, Tencent, Baidu etc. 

 

Again, the US is only the leading power of the world because of these exact practices. Stealing textile manufacturing technology from Britain where the industrial revolution started. Even worse, to quote:

 

,,The US would never have had a steel industry. Again same reason. British steel was way superior. One of the reasons is because they were stealing Indian techniques. British engineers were going to India to learn about steel-making well into the 19th century. Britain ran the country by force, so they could take what they knew. And they develop a steel industry. And the US imposed extremely high tariffs, also massive government involvement, through the military system as usual. And the US developed a steel industry. And so it continues. Right up to the present.

Furthermore that’s true of every single developed society. That’s one of the best known truths of economic history. The only countries that developed are the ones that pursued these techniques. The ones that weren’t able… There were countries that were forced to adopt “free trade” and “liberalization”: the colonies, and they got destroyed. And the divide between the first and the third world is really since the 18th century. It wasn’t very much in the 18th century, and it’s very sharply along these lines.

Well, that’s what the intellectual property rights are for. In fact there’s a name for it in economic history. Friedrich List, famous German political economist in the 19th century, who was actually borrowing from Andrew Hamilton, called it “kicking away the ladder”. First you use state power and violence to develop, then you kick away those procedures so that other people can’t do it.

 

 

 

Regarding Russia and China @Spekulatius 

 

Ill quote something from Rob Vinalls Half year letters with which i agreed: 

 

What has changed is that today, there are only two superpowers – the US and China. Such a tectonic shift happens perhaps just once a century. Barring radical regime change in Moscow, Russia is likely to be closed off from the Western economy for at least a generation. This leaves China as the only game left in town for Russia and relegates Russia to little more than a vassal state. The clear winner is China. It will gain privileged access to Russia’s raw materials and will be the sole source for essential manufactures such as high-end electronics – almost becoming a monopolist and a monopsonist vis-à-vis Russia. From a geopolitical standpoint, it is a disaster for Russia and a boon for China.

 

Some of you have voiced concern that China will enter the Ukraine conflict by providing military support to Russia. I doubt this will happen. China already has Russia where it wants it and has little to gain by deepening the relationship further. Moreover, China will be keen not to unnecessarily antagonise the West given the importance of Western export markets to its economy.

 

At a high level, I doubt very much that China was informed of Putin’s intention to invade Ukraine or that it would have approved the invasion had it been. Sovereignty is a core value in China given that its borders were constantly encroached upon over the centuries, the motivating factor behind the country’s most famous landmark: The Great Wall of China.

 

 

Edited May 26, 2023 by Luca

[Luca]

China missed the Industrial Revolution completely and would have been behind FOREVER (as are african countries) without adopting the closed off state directed market system. It would NEVER have been possible to get where they are without an authoritarian regime that can lead long term. In the early industrial revolution it was clear that those who control the markets have immense power and the US came out on top after WW2 because Europe was heavily impacted by Hitler.

 

China is basically doing now what the US did, funding infrastructure in poor eastern countries, trying to build factories there, implement them in THEIR market system etc. US hates it because thats what they used to do. 

Edited May 26, 2023 by Luca

[Luca]

Also, to say China is this parasite Mafia state is just unjust to how much the brought prosperity to chinese citizens. They are traveling the world, have high living standards in the coastal cities. Just to show the US trophy city NY subway vs Shenzen metro: 

 

 

[Luca]

Shenzen: 

 

[Luca]

New York Subway:

 

 

[Baklava]

Regarding Intellectual property theft and industrial espionage I have give to @Luca right here. This was also common practice in the western world during the Industrialization period. I read in a book about the Krupp's, a German steel dynasty, that they sent spies over to British steel plants and implanted them in the workforces over there.

[Baklava]

But @Luca Chinese "education" camps for Uyghurs and Guantanamo are two different things, not only in terms of size. The purpose for both facilities are also quite different. The Chinese are incarcerating over 1 Mio. people because they are Muslims and not Han Chinese. And forcing people to give up on their culture and religion. 

I mean with Guantanamo you could say at least there were national security reasons behind it. I am not trying to defend what happened in Guantanamo, just pointing at the differences. 

[Luca]

1 minute ago, Baklava said:

But @Luca Chinese "education" camps for Uyghurs and Guantanamo are two different things, not only in terms of size. The purpose for both facilities are also quite different. The Chinese are incarcerating over 1 Mio. people because they are Muslims and not Han Chinese. And forcing people to give up on their culture and religion. 

I mean with Guantanamo you could say at least there were national security reasons behind it. I am not trying to defend what happened in Guantanamo, just pointing at the differences. 

One example is Adel Noori, a Chinese Uyghur and dissident who had been sold to the US by Pakistani bounty hunters.^[146]

Top DoD officials often referred to these prisoners as the "worst of the worst", but a 2003 memo by then-Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said "We need to stop populating Guantanamo Bay (GTMO) with low-level enemy combatants... GTMO needs to serve as an [redacted] not a prison for Afghanistan."^[147] The Center for Policy and Research's 2006 report, based on DoD released data, found that most detainees were low-level offenders who were not affiliated with organizations on U.S. terrorist lists.

 

Also questionable how much national security was behind this. Many have been tortured.

 

In 2010, Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, a former aide to Secretary of State Colin Powell, stated in an affidavit that top U.S. officials, including President George W. Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, had known that the majority of the detainees initially sent to Guantánamo were innocent, but that the detainees had been kept there for reasons of political expedience.

[Luca]

6 minutes ago, Baklava said:

But @Luca Chinese "education" camps for Uyghurs and Guantanamo are two different things, not only in terms of size. The purpose for both facilities are also quite different. The Chinese are incarcerating over 1 Mio. people because they are Muslims and not Han Chinese. And forcing people to give up on their culture and religion. 

I mean with Guantanamo you could say at least there were national security reasons behind it. I am not trying to defend what happened in Guantanamo, just pointing at the differences. 

I agree that these camps in China are absurd.

[Spekulatius]

1 hour ago, Luca said:

I agree that these camps in China are absurd.

Imprisonment rates in the US are quite high. One chart alone can be misleading, but the incarceration rate in the US is shockingly high without doubt. it's a huge economic drag and indication of severe social issues. We can't claim the US is perfect. Noam Chomsky  has some valid points in many matters, but is also blatantly wrong in others.

 

 

On the topic of semiconductors, it is clear that China is going for domination here. This is a stated goal by the CCP and it is easy to see why - it enables a lot of other things (AI, military) and being independent also allows them to put more pressure on Taiwan. So in my opinion, the US/West is right to push back here, especially since China is not competing fairly.

[Sweet]

@Lucathere is a line between being devils advocate and shilling for China, and I’m not sure what side of that line you are on

 

It’s unserious to compare the detention of less than 1,000 known and suspected terrorists at Guatanamo bay with the internment and other abuses of millions of Uyghurs on the basis of their ethnicity and religion. 
 

IPs are important for technological advancement.  If anyone could just steal your drug product, or your technical innovation, that would remove any incentive to create those products in the first place.  Take drugs, who is going to spend billions researching and bringing a new drug to the market if there is no reward for them in doing so?  There was a Chinese placement student in my work who we are certain stole a load of documents which contained technical information and experimental results - is that OK Luca?

 

Trade rules are in place between countries that seek to set the ground work for fair trade and competition.  China has not been playing fair, it’s the biggest abuser of these rules, and whilst Western markets have been largely open to China, Chinese markets are not largely open to Western countries.  That parasitic relationship needs severed now.

 

I asked you these questions before and would appreciate answer:

 

Why is the West not concerned with the development and rise of India?

 

Why are non-Western countries in South East Asia remilitarising and seeking alliances to counter the influence of China?

 

The answer to both those questions tell you an awful lot about geopolitics in that region.

 

 

Edited May 26, 2023 by Sweet

[Luca]

20 minutes ago, Sweet said:

@Lucathere is a line between being devils advocate and shilling for China, and I’m not sure what side of that line you are on

 

It’s unserious to compare the detention of less than 1,000 known and suspected terrorists at Guatanamo bay with the internment and other abuses of millions of Uyghurs on the basis of their ethnicity and religion.

I am not on anybodys side, i am just trying to look at the situation from a factual point of view. Its not only guantanamo, as @Spekulatius pointed out there is a huge part of the US population that is absolutely wrecked. Black males in Harlem are having the same or worse mortality rates than in Bangladesh. Appalling poverty. This goes on and on with War Crimes in Yugoslavia supported by the US, War crimes against Indonesian population, supporting dictators to prevent reorganization of markets. China has their reeducation camps and its appalling, that does not make them a mafia state though.

 

20 minutes ago, Sweet said:

 

IPs are important for technological advancement.  If anyone could just steal your drug product, or your technical innovation, that would remove any incentive to create those products in the first place.  Take drugs, who is going to spend billions researching and bringing a new drug to the market if there is no reward for them in doing so?  There was a Chinese placement student in my work who we are certain stole a load of documents which contained technical information and experimental results - is that OK Luca?

There is evidence about these technology transfers and thats unfair from the citizens involved. But we also have to differentiated between a stealing private sector and a stealing government (which also does this). But again, look at internal US affairs, what kind of information they control, the CIA etc. All i hear though is that China is this evil devil but nobody looks at the US. Its hypocrisy. 

20 minutes ago, Sweet said:

 

Trade rules are in place between countries that seek to set the ground work for fair trade and competition.  China has not been playing fair, it’s the biggest abuser of these rules, and whilst Western markets have been largely open to China, Chinese markets are not largely open to Western countries.  That parasitic relationship needs severed now.

Western markets have been largely open because China could not, until very recently, compete. As you are seeing now, when the threat of disruption comes up, the markets are getting closed. With all sort of fear that the government might get data etc...how much data does Meta collect from germany? Why is the US controlling the phone of our chancellor? How much intervention was with Twitter by the state? Again: Hypocrisy 

20 minutes ago, Sweet said:

I asked you these questions before and would appreciate answer:

 

Why is the West not concerned with the development and rise of India?

India is still much poorer compared to China, and they are very docile till now. Will be interesting to see when India moves closer to China and what the US does then. 

20 minutes ago, Sweet said:

 

Why are non-Western countries in South East Asia remilitarising and seeking alliances to counter the influence of China?

China is not a ,,good guy,, either, i agree that some SEA countries remilitarise against a growing influence of china.

20 minutes ago, Sweet said:

 

The answer to both those questions tell you an awful lot about geopolitics in that region.

 

 

I am not on Chinas Side but the media coverage is biased towards the west. 

Edited May 26, 2023 by Luca

[Luca]

We still invest all over the world, at least many other investors do. Many own businesses in China, Berkshire, Munger, Guy Spier, Pabrai, Li Lu. I think with a very long horizon and a strong stomache, there is a lot of money still to be made in China. Their growth potential is gigantic. India is another one of these markets that have massive growth ahead, where finding a spawner at a fair price might give great returns too. 

Edited May 26, 2023 by Luca

[Xerxes]

The whole notion of naming of a yet un-started war as World War 3 is silly. 
 

We called what happened in 1914-18 as the Great War until 1937-45 happened at which point the concept of First and Second World Wars was born. 
 

Some argue that the Seven Year War was the real, First World War. Which makes 1914-18 the Second World War. But that would be incorrect because the two WW were close sequels. 
 

https://www.britannica.com/summary/Key-Facts-of-the-Seven-Years-War#:~:text=The Seven Years' War (1756,%2C the Americas%2C and Asia.

 

There are many ways to go around this. But I am sure whatever happens it won’t actually be called World War 3.
 

A global nuclear event will permanently ends all life and then some and followed by bouncing up sands, here and there. Not much left to talk about.  
 

Future proxy wars will be what they will be. Named around the geographical area where they occur. 

 

So no WW3 folks. Sorry. 

[RichardGibbons]

6 hours ago, Sweet said:

@Lucathere is a line between being devils advocate and shilling for China, and I’m not sure what side of that line you are on

 

I think it's pretty clear what side of the line Luca is on.  He sprouts poetic about China's glorious achievements, and his only concession to the other side of the coin is that genocidal camps imprisoning a million people are "absurd". Rather than, say, "horrific", "atrocious", or "horrendous".

 

There's no doubt whatsoever what side of the line he's on.

 

That said, there's lots of people who support the horrendous, and it's convenient for us that Luca is so transparent about his passion.

Edited May 26, 2023 by RichardGibbons

[Dinar]

7 minutes ago, RichardGibbons said:

 

I think it's pretty clear what side of the line Luca is on.  He sprouts poetic about China's glorious achievements, and his only concession to the other side of the coin is that genocidal camps imprisoning a million people are "absurd". Rather than, say, "horrific", "atrocious", or "horrendous".

 

There's no doubt whatsoever what side of the line he's on.

 

That said, there's lots of people who support the horrendous, and it's convenient for us that Luca is so transparent about his passion.

He reminds me of a lot Communists in the West who supported the Soviet Union and communism but preferred to live in the West.   He claims to live in Germany and yet admires China so much...  He pisses on NY subway (which does deserve scorn) and his praise of Shanghai metro reminds me of Soviet metro, yet everybody who can tries to leave China and immigrate to the US, the reverse I do not see...

[Sweet]

6 hours ago, Luca said:

I am not on anybodys side, i am just trying to look at the situation from a factual point of view. Its not only guantanamo, as @Spekulatius pointed out there is a huge part of the US population that is absolutely wrecked. Black males in Harlem are having the same or worse mortality rates than in Bangladesh. Appalling poverty. This goes on and on with War Crimes in Yugoslavia supported by the US, War crimes against Indonesian population, supporting dictators to prevent reorganization of markets. China has their reeducation camps and its appalling, that does not make them a mafia state though.

 

There is evidence about these technology transfers and thats unfair from the citizens involved. But we also have to differentiated between a stealing private sector and a stealing government (which also does this). But again, look at internal US affairs, what kind of information they control, the CIA etc. All i hear though is that China is this evil devil but nobody looks at the US. Its hypocrisy. 

Western markets have been largely open because China could not, until very recently, compete. As you are seeing now, when the threat of disruption comes up, the markets are getting closed. With all sort of fear that the government might get data etc...how much data does Meta collect from germany? Why is the US controlling the phone of our chancellor? How much intervention was with Twitter by the state? Again: Hypocrisy 

India is still much poorer compared to China, and they are very docile till now. Will be interesting to see when India moves closer to China and what the US does then. 

China is not a ,,good guy,, either, i agree that some SEA countries remilitarise against a growing influence of china.

I am not on Chinas Side but the media coverage is biased towards the west. 

Yes ‘re-education camps’.  I disagree, they are a mafia state ran by a cabal of Xi appointees who are fabulously wealthy.  Xi is the Godfather - there are quite a lot of parallels with a mafia.

 

Does the US steal patents now?  Which ones recently?

 

The workplace Chinese student that stole documents and technical information was on cultural / student exchange programme.  A programme which Western governments figured out was actually used by the Chinese government to spy and steal technology.  It’s was not a private citizen, the programmes are used as a spying ring.  There were articles exposing this BEFORE the Chinese student worked with us, and sure enough information went missing after his visit.

 

America like anywhere has its problems, but what has black males in Harlem got to do with anything?  As Morgan Freeman said “the bus runs every day” - in other words get out of Harlem.

 

Does America government spy and get involved with companies like Twitter.  Sure.  The difference is that we can have an open conversation about what level of surveillance is appropriate.  We can throw out the politicians and get some to enact different policies.  China has Godfather Xi and he isn’t leaving for anyone.

 

And regarding India, I don’t buy your answer.  India is a competitor but not an adversary.  They are democratic and not authoritarian.  The West doesn’t have a problem with India for those reasons.  I don’t think India will be moving closer to China.

[Luca]

 

1. US cant stop the belt and road initiative, Israel->China owns half the port. China is slowly steadily moving, investments, no violence. US cant do anything and gets hysteric. 

2. ,,United States is collapsing from within, bridges are collapsing, subway doesnt work, nothing works, the whole system doesnt work, so we need spending to rebuilt spending. Finally congress got together to get a bill for infrastructure, not because the united states needs bridges but because they have to OUTCOMPETE china. Its the china competition bill. It shows, when the godfather gets in trouble, he goes crazy,,

 

1 hour ago, RichardGibbons said:

 

I think it's pretty clear what side of the line Luca is on.  He sprouts poetic about China's glorious achievements, and his only concession to the other side of the coin is that genocidal camps imprisoning a million people are "absurd". Rather than, say, "horrific", "atrocious", or "horrendous".

 

There's no doubt whatsoever what side of the line he's on.

 

That said, there's lots of people who support the horrendous, and it's convenient for us that Luca is so transparent about his passion.

Which Side am i on? On chinas side? There are many things to criticize in china and they are not a good guy either, i have said that before. Absurd is a synonym for harebrained, ludicrous, preposterous. Its absolutely appalling. 

 

50 minutes ago, Dinar said:

He reminds me of a lot Communists in the West who supported the Soviet Union and communism but preferred to live in the West.   He claims to live in Germany and yet admires China so much...  He pisses on NY subway (which does deserve scorn) and his praise of Shanghai metro reminds me of Soviet metro, yet everybody who can tries to leave China and immigrate to the US, the reverse I do not see...

No arguments but only trying to push me into some communist corner...disappointing. Its not allowed to piss on the underfunded US infrastructure and their massively over funded military infrastructure? That tells you miles about what the US is: 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2023 by Luca

[Luca]

Reality is that these superpowers are in a war and both sides have massive problems in their countries. 

33 minutes ago, Sweet said:

Yes ‘re-education camps’.  I disagree, they are a mafia state ran by a cabal of Xi appointees who are fabulously wealthy.  Xi is the Godfather - there are quite a lot of parallels with a mafia.

You could make many arguments like these about politicians and capital in the US. 

33 minutes ago, Sweet said:

 

Does the US steal patents now?  Which ones recently?

They stole many to get where they are now. Since their multinationals pretty much control the largest part of the world economy they dont need to do much, US controls the EU, Japan etc. 

33 minutes ago, Sweet said:

 

The workplace Chinese student that stole documents and technical information was on cultural / student exchange programme.  A programme which Western governments figured out was actually used by the Chinese government to spy and steal technology.  It’s was not a private citizen, the programmes are used as a spying ring.  There were articles exposing this BEFORE the Chinese student worked with us, and sure enough information went missing after his visit.

Yes and that is a huge problem. 

33 minutes ago, Sweet said:

 

America like anywhere has its problems, but what has black males in Harlem got to do with anything? 

It shows that there is much suffering in the US and the government doesn't give a fuck in many instances. Same with the CCP and their concentration camps. 

33 minutes ago, Sweet said:

 

Does America government spy and get involved with companies like Twitter.  Sure.  The difference is that we can have an open conversation about what level of surveillance is appropriate.  

If you talk about it you go into prison or have to go to Russia (snowden) 

33 minutes ago, Sweet said:

 

We can throw out the politicians and get some to enact different policies.  China has Godfather Xi and he isn’t leaving for anyone.

How ridiculous the campaign financing system is and how decadent both parties have become is no news. China has the CCP yes, better than having the CIA trying to install a maniac dictator that does what the US tells him: 

 

https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1964-68v23/d1#:~:text=In August 1960%2C the U.S.,provided advice and financial subsidies.

 

In August 1960, the U.S. Government launched a covert political program in the Congo lasting almost 7 years, initially aimed at eliminating Lumumba from power and replacing him with a more moderate, pro-Western leader. The U.S. Government provided advice and financial subsidies. At the same time, based on authorization from President Eisenhower’s statements at an NSC meeting on August 18, 1960, discussions began to develop highly sensitive, tightly-held plans to assassinate Lumumba. After Lumumba’s death at the hands of Congolese rivals in January 1961, the U.S. Government authorized the provision of paramilitary and air support to the new Congolese Government.

33 minutes ago, Sweet said:

 

And regarding India, I don’t buy your answer.  India is a competitor but not an adversary.  They are democratic and not authoritarian.  The West doesn’t have a problem with India for those reasons.  I don’t think India will be moving closer to China.

We will see what happens:

 

Edited May 26, 2023 by Luca

[Luca]

1 hour ago, Dinar said:

He reminds me of a lot Communists in the West who supported the Soviet Union and communism but preferred to live in the West.   He claims to live in Germany and yet admires China so much...  He pisses on NY subway (which does deserve scorn) and his praise of Shanghai metro reminds me of Soviet metro, yet everybody who can tries to leave China and immigrate to the US, the reverse I do not see...

Also, whats so bad about admiring something of china. Thats classical bloc thinking. Whats not impressive of this: 

 

[Sweet]

42 minutes ago, Luca said:

China has the CCP yes, better than having the CIA trying to install a maniac dictator that does what the US tells him: 

That’s truly a ridiculous thing to say.  How many people died as a result of the CCP - many many millions Luca.  There is no parallel.

 

If it wasn’t for the US, communism might have run rampant all ofer the global, and communist societies are not kind, and in many cases (like China) they are downright murderous.

 

Can you tell me the patents the US stole please?

 

 

Edited May 26, 2023 by Sweet

[Luca]

27 minutes ago, Sweet said:

That’s truly a ridiculous thing to say.  How many people died as a result of the CCP - many many millions Luca.  There is no parallel.

 

If it wasn’t for the US communism might have run rampant all ofer the global, and communist societies are not kind, and in many cases (like China) they are downright murderous.

 

Can you tell me the patents the US stole please?

I just dont buy into all this absolute hate against the chinese government, how bad they are, how evil they are, that its a mafia state. There are many new people in the party and the country completely changed. Was Mao the worst that has happened to China? Probably.

 

Again: We can say the same about the US, massive genocide against indigenous population, appalling slavery of blacks, brutal labor fight history and some of the most evil people running the country...

 

I dont know exactly how the leadership in china decided to change its strategy and change their system and which specific communication happened with the US decades ago. But to give the government there 0 credit is just not worthy. 

Same is true for the US, many great things to mention. 

 

The US does not need to steal much patents (although there are cases of course) because it is at the top. 

 

“The message we are sending to China today is, Do as I say, not as I did,′ ” said Peter Andreas, professor at Brown University’s Watson Institute for International and Public Affairs. “The fact of the matter is that the U.S. was the world’s hotbed of intellectual property theft.”

 

 

Having imposed tariffs on $250 billion in Chinese goods, the Trump administration is trying to force Beijing to abandon what it calls its brass-knuckles drive to exploit American technology to speed its own economic modernization. The administration alleges — and many China watchers agree — that Beijing steals trade secrets and coerces U.S. companies to hand them over as the price of admission to the vast Chinese market.

 

More than two centuries ago, the young United States, an agrarian backwater lacking in skilled workers, held a different view of other nations’ trade secrets: They were, it seemed, up for grabs. In 2012, having surveyed the sordid history of U.S. industrial espionage, the journal Foreign Policy called America “the China of the 19th century.

 

“Only after becoming the leading industrial power did it become a champion of intellectual-property protections,” said Andreas, author of “Smuggler Nation: How Illicit Trade Made America.”

 

Hamilton, determined to transform America into an industrial power, argued in 1791 that the United States needed “to procure all such machines as are known in any part of Europe.”

 

 

Even so, Ben-Atar doubts that the U.S. can effectively keep its technology from slipping away.

“The history of trying to restrict the movement of technology is the history of failure,” he said.

In the 13th century, he noted, the Italian city-state of Venice sought to protect its glass-making industry by isolating its artisans on the island of Murano. Venice’s secrets got out anyway.

Andreas doesn’t object to the U.S. trying to combat Chinese piracy. But “the finger-pointing and righteous indignation,” he said, “should be tempered by a historical reality check.”

 

https://apnews.com/article/north-america-us-news-ap-top-news-theft-international-news-b40414d22f2248428ce11ff36b88dc53

Edited May 26, 2023 by Luca

[Sweet]

36 minutes ago, Luca said:

Also, whats so bad about admiring something of china. Thats classical bloc thinking. Whats not impressive of this: 

 

No doubt the development is spectacular.  That’s not the issue though.

[Sweet]

2 minutes ago, Luca said:

I just dont buy into all this absolute hate against the chinese government, how bad they are, how evil they are, that its a mafia state. There are many new people in the party and the country completely changed. Was Mao the worst that has happened to China? Probably.

 

Again: We can say the same about the US, massive genocide against indigenous population, appalling slavery of blacks, brutal labor fight history and some of the most evil people running the country...

 

I dont know exactly how the leadership in china decided to change its strategy and change their system and which specific communication happened with the US decades ago. But to give the government there 0 credit is just not worthy. 

Same is true for the US, many great things to mention. 

 

The US does not need to steal much patents (although there are cases of course) because it is at the top. 

 

“The message we are sending to China today is, Do as I say, not as I did,′ ” said Peter Andreas, professor at Brown University’s Watson Institute for International and Public Affairs. “The fact of the matter is that the U.S. was the world’s hotbed of intellectual property theft.”

 

 

Having imposed tariffs on $250 billion in Chinese goods, the Trump administration is trying to force Beijing to abandon what it calls its brass-knuckles drive to exploit American technology to speed its own economic modernization. The administration alleges — and many China watchers agree — that Beijing steals trade secrets and coerces U.S. companies to hand them over as the price of admission to the vast Chinese market.

 

More than two centuries ago, the young United States, an agrarian backwater lacking in skilled workers, held a different view of other nations’ trade secrets: They were, it seemed, up for grabs. In 2012, having surveyed the sordid history of U.S. industrial espionage, the journal Foreign Policy called America “the China of the 19th century.

 

“Only after becoming the leading industrial power did it become a champion of intellectual-property protections,” said Andreas, author of “Smuggler Nation: How Illicit Trade Made America.”

 

Hamilton, determined to transform America into an industrial power, argued in 1791 that the United States needed “to procure all such machines as are known in any part of Europe.”

 

 

Even so, Ben-Atar doubts that the U.S. can effectively keep its technology from slipping away.

“The history of trying to restrict the movement of technology is the history of failure,” he said.

In the 13th century, he noted, the Italian city-state of Venice sought to protect its glass-making industry by isolating its artisans on the island of Murano. Venice’s secrets got out anyway.

Andreas doesn’t object to the U.S. trying to combat Chinese piracy. But “the finger-pointing and righteous indignation,” he said, “should be tempered by a historical reality check.”

 

https://apnews.com/article/north-america-us-news-ap-top-news-theft-international-news-b40414d22f2248428ce11ff36b88dc53

You don’t have to buy it, but I believe it is a Mafia state.

 

Has China apologised for the killing of millions?  Has it closed those camps?  No.

 

The US is not the same country today, with the same beliefs as it was 250 years ago.  Yet you keep pointing to US history to justify the action of China today.

 

You aren’t denying that China is stealing secrets, or operating discriminatory and unfair practices, or using massive state subsidies, you simply reply with the West once did this.  Fine, but there is no reason for the West to passively accept it.