Political Posts

[dwy000]

2 minutes ago, Sweet said:

I don’t really accept your argument on a couple of grounds.

The rules are variable between states, and quite lax in general, that it makes it hard to detect fraud in the first place.

 

Fraud does occur, probably not at a level which changes elections though, but the degree is unknown because of all the mail in voting, lack of ID etc.

 

What we do know is that is a large amount of discontent with the process, and with a large population of illegal immigrants, and that more scrutiny is needed.

 

One of your arguments against tightening rules around voting, rules which many other Western democracies already have, is that you shouldn’t ‘capitulate to (Trump’s) lies’.  But that shows you are beholden to Trump and see this as a partisan issue which you must deny him a win on.  From my point of view, there is no good reason not to improve voting if you really cared about democratic integrity.

 

My argument isnt about capitulation to Trump narrowly. Its more broad in that there will always be sore losers and discontented supporters and you dont change the rules because someone didn't like the outcome.  You change the rules because they are wrong.  And thats not the case here.  If we changed FIFA rules after every country that lost complained about the rule book, the World Cup would be unplayable. 

 

If there is proven large scale fraud, by all means something needs to be fixed.  But thats definitely not the case.  Not a single proven case of large scale fraud has been held up anywhere.  When it is, I fully support fixing it. But the current process works and making it harder for people to vote should not be the goal. 

[cubsfan]

1 hour ago, whiskybravo said:

 

My understanding is that it’s a witness interview from an investigation, not the investigation’s final conclusions.  Authorities ultimately concluded there were fraudulent voter registration applications submitted by canvassers trying to get paid, but local election officials flagged the suspicious registrations and there wasn’t evidence that fraudulent ballots were cast or counted because of them. 

Reminds me of Charlie’s principle: Show me the incentive and I’ll show you the outcome.

 

Your understanding is correct that this is a participant's summary to the FBI.

 

I am not an attorney, but I do believe it is a Federal crime to pay someone to vote and/or pay someone to register to vote. It certainly is a crime to forge names, falsify SOME Federal documents, etc..

 

I have seen no Federal charges in the Michigan situation.  And I am not claim such. The situation is developing. 

 

Everyone is entitled to due process.

[adesigar]

15 minutes ago, dwy000 said:

My argument isnt about capitulation to Trump narrowly. Its more broad in that there will always be sore losers and discontented supporters and you dont change the rules because someone didn't like the outcome.  You change the rules because they are wrong.  And thats not the case here.  If we changed FIFA rules after every country that lost complained about the rule book, the World Cup would be unplayable. 

 

If there is proven large scale fraud, by all means something needs to be fixed.  But thats definitely not the case.  Not a single proven case of large scale fraud has been held up anywhere.  When it is, I fully support fixing it. But the current process works and making it harder for people to vote should not be the goal. 

 

The Republicans need to make it harder for people to vote otherwise how will they win? 
 

Why do you think they oppose moving Voting day to a weekend or making it a holiday? They don’t want people to vote.

 

Why do you think in cities in republican run states there are so few voting sites. So there can be multiple hours long lines only in the cities so less people will vote.

 

[adesigar]

3 minutes ago, cubsfan said:

 

Your understanding is correct that this is a participant's summary to the FBI.

 

I am not an attorney, but I do believe it is a Federal crime to pay someone to vote and/or pay someone to register to vote. It certainly is a crime to forge names, falsify SOME Federal documents, etc..

 

I have seen no Federal charges in the Michigan situation.  And I am not claim such. The situation is developing. 

 

Everyone is entitled to due process.

 

And I give you the Republican Party and Elom Musk.

 

https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/5941842-musk-america-pac-lawsuit/amp/

[cubsfan]

1 hour ago, dwy000 said:

The key point is that the current system works.  Without any fraud. There has almost never been an issue before Trump and the only reason a portion of the population even considers fraud now is because the world's biggest liar keeps yelling it because he lost (and his cult members believe anything he says).  Publicly changing something that works because someone who lost doesnt like the outcome is not a solution, its a capitulation to lies.  After all these years there has not been a single proven case of meaningful fraud (again, except Trump asking for votes to be found).  Not one. If there IS fraud, fix the system.  But thats not the case here. 

 

Indeed that is incorrect - I gave you several examples of Democratic leaders & a Presidential candidate that repeatedly claimed Russia & Trump colluded to throw the 2016 election.  I gave you examples of the 2004 Bush/Gore contest where Democrats screamed election fraud in Ohio.

 

Democrats were unable to stop the Presidential confirmation process - although they went to great lengths to do so.

[Blake Hampton]

This is a great interview. Maya MacGuineas is an amazing woman:

 

 

Edited 15 hours ago by Blake Hampton

[cubsfan]

46 minutes ago, dwy000 said:

My argument isnt about capitulation to Trump narrowly. Its more broad in that there will always be sore losers and discontented supporters and you dont change the rules because someone didn't like the outcome. 

 

Wrong.

 

You change the rules BECAUSE there is fraud.  It is against the law for Illegal aliens to register to vote. That is very simple. 278,000 Illegals registered to vote .  400,000 dead people are listed as active registered voters.

 

The American public (85%) WANT proof of US citizenship in order to vote. They do not trust the election process.  The American public is demanding Voter ID and verification that you are indeed alive - not dead.

[Blake Hampton]

1 hour ago, whiskybravo said:

I’ve been reading these since long before you were born.  So has Cubs. 

The only thing Cubs is reading is the subtitles on Fox News.

[cubsfan]

1 minute ago, Blake Hampton said:

The only thing Cubs is reading is the subtitles on Fox News.

 

I think I mentioned to you I watch very little TV.

But you don't have to believe me little guy.

 

And I mentioned several of the publications I enjoy, which you choose to ignore. Your choice Blake.

 

If you want to be serious, bring a serious argument Blake.

[whiskybravo]

35 minutes ago, cubsfan said:

 

Your understanding is correct that this is a participant's summary to the FBI.

 

I am not an attorney, but I do believe it is a Federal crime to pay someone to vote and/or pay someone to register to vote. It certainly is a crime to forge names, falsify SOME Federal documents, etc..

 

I have seen no Federal charges in the Michigan situation.  And I am not claim such. The situation is developing. 

 

Everyone is entitled to due process.

It was the canvasser’s who were paid and they had a quota which in order to fill the made up fraudulent registrations.  Local election officials identified the fraudulent forms, threw them out, and called the local police.  No one was paid to vote or to register to vote.

[LC]

5 minutes ago, cubsfan said:

.  It is against the law for Illegal aliens to register to vote. That is very simple. 278,000 Illegals registered to vote .  400,000 dead people are listed as active registered voters.

 

Well, it is illegal for ILLEGAL aliens to live in the USA. Your guys not only voted against a bipartisan border security bill, not only earmarked 100s of billions for ICE, but you can't even round them up without murdering US citizens.

 

And now you want to screen for them at voter sites which are packed with US Citizens? How many more people do you want ICE to murder? 

 

I wonder, right after ICE shoots them, will you cry about dead people being on voter rolls?

 

Speaking of which, you mention dead people being on voter rolls, like it's some big surprise. I know you realize dead people can't physically vote!

 

Not to mention all the technology issues of any Identification proposal. I wonder how many brown americans won't be verified on voting day due to some "technology problem". 30%? 40%? 

I guess that means the rest are worth...what, about 3/5ths? I'm sure that excites some of your fellow MAGA members!

 

What's obvious to me is that the right to vote (and all our rights) needs to be continuously won, because there is always some political muppet somewhere trying to take it away!

[cubsfan]

28 minutes ago, whiskybravo said:

It was the canvasser’s who were paid and they had a quota which in order to fill the made up fraudulent registrations.  Local election officials identified the fraudulent forms, threw them out, and called the local police.  No one was paid to vote or to register to vote.

 

Yes, understand.  Muskegon City Clerk notified the police of this firm's activity (firm name redacted).  In the other correspondence, it was stated this firm submitting fraudulent forms was working state wide with hundreds of canvassers.  The firms owner/manager told them how to fill out phony registrations when training the 100 canvassers in Muskegon. 

 

My question to you - since I don't know election law - is it legal to pay canvassers PER registration form (fraudulent or real)??

 

That would seem illegal to pay canvassers for fraudulent registrations where they make up names, SS, etc.

 

So the firm gets busted by the Muskegon City Clerk and they stop the fraud in Muskegon and move on to their other towns.

 

One of the other files is a spot check of database registrations where 107 voter registrations comes back with 91 non-existent citizens.  Of the 107 , only 4 have actual signatures.

 

 

 

 

[cubsfan]

59 minutes ago, whiskybravo said:

It was the canvasser’s who were paid and they had a quota which in order to fill the made up fraudulent registrations.  Local election officials identified the fraudulent forms, threw them out, and called the local police.  No one was paid to vote or to register to vote.

 

Ok WB - forget it - I found the answer in the filings.

 

The Trump FBI was called in by the local Muskegon police due to the fraudulent documents.  The Muskegon City Clerk blocked the fraudulent registrations. The firm had submitted around 12,000 registrations in total. Many of them were deemed to be fraudulent - which is a Federal Crime to submit phony data them, with intent,  for Voter registration.

 

The investigation languished for 1 year, when the Biden FBI decided not to purse the case in spite of a mountain of evidence. 

 

Here is the email between the FBI officials - one saying we need to keep pursue this - the other saying to shut down the investigation.

 

In this email string - the FBI official discusses the federal crimes, urging referral to the DOJ.

 

https://electionrecords.netlify.app/documents/michigan/fbimichigan-2021-dont-want-to-close-memo-release-marked.pdf

 

 

 

[whiskybravo]

1 hour ago, cubsfan said:

 

Ok WB - forget it - I found the answer in the filings.

 

The Trump FBI was called in by the local Muskegon police due to the fraudulent documents.  The Muskegon City Clerk blocked the fraudulent registrations. The firm had submitted around 12,000 registrations in total. Many of them were deemed to be fraudulent - which is a Federal Crime to submit phony data them, with intent,  for Voter registration.

 

The investigation languished for 1 year, when the Biden FBI decided not to purse the case in spite of a mountain of evidence. 

 

Here is the email between the FBI officials - one saying we need to keep pursue this - the other saying to shut down the investigation.

 

In this email string - the FBI official discusses the federal crimes, urging referral to the DOJ.

 

https://electionrecords.netlify.app/documents/michigan/fbimichigan-2021-dont-want-to-close-memo-release-marked.pdf

 

 

 

I don’t dispute that investigators believed crimes may have occurred involving fraudulent voter registration applications. That’s different from saying there was election fraud that affected votes or that a political cover-up occurred. An internal FBI memo recommending further investigation or prosecution shows one investigator’s view, not the government’s final legal conclusion. The publicly reported facts are still that the fraudulent registration applications were caught by local election officials before the election, rejected, and investigators have not publicly presented evidence that fraudulent ballots were cast or counted because of them. Whether DOJ should have pursued charges against individuals responsible for submitting fraudulent registrations is a separate question from whether the 2020 election was affected.

 

It’ll be interesting to see where it goes from here.

[Spekulatius]

9 hours ago, whiskybravo said:

I’d want it proven in a verifiable way first. If there's real evidence, let's see it in court. But making those claims on national TV without proof just hurts public trust, which is what worries me.

He knows there are elections are coming up that he may well lose so he is setting up the stage to question the legitimacy of the elections if he does indeed loses. 

[cubsfan]

12 minutes ago, Spekulatius said:

He knows there are elections are coming up that he may well lose so he is setting up the stage to question the legitimacy of the elections if he does indeed loses. 

 

Trump knows winning the mid-terms is a long shot. 39 of the last 41 mid-terms have gone to the out of power party.  

 

He wants election reform in place for 2028 just like 85% of American citizens are demanding: 

 

1 - Voter ID 

2- Proof of Citizenship 

[John Hjorth]

Yesterday, I just lost a quite long draft here on CofB&F to Cloudflare! - I hope it [Cloudflare, not my drafts!] may go to hell! 

 

Mike [ @cubsfan ] & @dwy000,

 

I'll get back to you both here - It's too hot here, it's Saturday, it's vacation time, and, and, and ... !

 

- - - o 0 o - - -

 

Funny - and very informative! - to post a basic question about voting in the USA, and then see the reactions, explanations of elaborations coming in here, in a steady stream!  - I'm learning a lot from reading it all.

[Parsad]

22 hours ago, Sweet said:

In the UK we have to prove we are eligible to vote, have to bring voter ID, mail in ballots are highly restricted, and everybody brings their own refreshments if they need to stand in line.  It’s really not a big deal.
 

There US voting system is a bit of a mess, and there are a good number of the population that don’t trust election results.  It’s strange to me that so many people are resistant to tightening the system up to ensure trust in the process.

 

Haha!  There's a good number in the U.S. that don't trust science and vaccines!  

 

Few questioned the authenticity of U.S. election results over the last 50 years until Al Gore...but even he accepted the results and did not utter the words conspiracy or rigged.  

 

The only other fellow to question results, just like he questions the media, people, countries, allies, staff, etc is Trump.  And not only did he doubt the results, he created a full-blown conspiracy theme around them with zero proof.  The only time elections, media, people, countries, allies, staff, etc aren't rigged is when they are on his side.  

 

You could have the tightest security regulations around elections, identical in every state, and Ms. Piggy would yell fire at every voting location! 

 

Cheers!

[Parsad]

20 hours ago, John Hjorth said:

 

Sanjeev [ @Parsad ],

 

If you were a piece of classic furniture, then it's called patina, which is valueenhancing! 

 

John, I know the value of a beautiful patina on antiques that showcases its history, but that value drops dramatically with large cracks in the patina!  Cheers!

[Sweet]

2 hours ago, Parsad said:

 

Haha!  There's a good number in the U.S. that don't trust science and vaccines!  

 

Few questioned the authenticity of U.S. election results over the last 50 years until Al Gore...but even he accepted the results and did not utter the words conspiracy or rigged.  

 

The only other fellow to question results, just like he questions the media, people, countries, allies, staff, etc is Trump.  And not only did he doubt the results, he created a full-blown conspiracy theme around them with zero proof.  The only time elections, media, people, countries, allies, staff, etc aren't rigged is when they are on his side.  

 

You could have the tightest security regulations around elections, identical in every state, and Ms. Piggy would yell fire at every voting location! 

 

Cheers!

Yeh but the changes being sought, such as voter ID, much less mail in voting, it’s not a big issue to implement really.

 

9 hours ago, dwy000 said:

My argument isnt about capitulation to Trump narrowly. Its more broad in that there will always be sore losers and discontented supporters and you dont change the rules because someone didn't like the outcome.  You change the rules because they are wrong.  And thats not the case here.  If we changed FIFA rules after every country that lost complained about the rule book, the World Cup would be unplayable. 

 

If there is proven large scale fraud, by all means something needs to be fixed.  But thats definitely not the case.  Not a single proven case of large scale fraud has been held up anywhere.  When it is, I fully support fixing it. But the current process works and making it harder for people to vote should not be the goal. 

Let’s agree to disagree.  There was no real talk of fraud in UK elections, but voter id was implemented to bolster public confidence in results and to prevent voter impersonation.  No fuss about it because it wasn’t a partisan issue, and it just made sense.

[73 Reds]

6 hours ago, Parsad said:

 

Haha!  There's a good number in the U.S. that don't trust science and vaccines!  

 

Few questioned the authenticity of U.S. election results over the last 50 years until Al Gore...but even he accepted the results and did not utter the words conspiracy or rigged.  

 

The only other fellow to question results, just like he questions the media, people, countries, allies, staff, etc is Trump.  And not only did he doubt the results, he created a full-blown conspiracy theme around them with zero proof.  The only time elections, media, people, countries, allies, staff, etc aren't rigged is when they are on his side.  

 

You could have the tightest security regulations around elections, identical in every state, and Ms. Piggy would yell fire at every voting location! 

 

Cheers!

This thread is entirely void of logic.  Cubs has demonstrated repeatedly that both parties have questioned and challenged election results on various occasions.  You all don't want to address the issue because your arguments make no sense and you play to your own narratives.  

[Spekulatius]

I posted this before, but it’s quite hard in the US to get an ID that proves you are US citizen. That‘s why many Americans don’t have a passport. If you can’t produce your birth certificate, it’s quite a problem.

A driving license which most people have doesn’t prove anything. It has nothing to do with being an US citizen or US person for that matter. A reform of the voting system would need to start with a program to provide an ID card to anyone.

[73 Reds]

1 minute ago, Spekulatius said:

I posted this before, but it’s quite hard in the US to get an ID that proves you are US citizen. That‘s why many Americans don’t have a passport. If you can’t produce your birth certificate, it’s quite a problem.

A driving license which most people have doesn’t prove anything. It has nothing to do with being an US citizen or US person for that matter. A reform of the voting system would need to start with a program to provide an ID card to anyone.

Nonsense.  if you can't prove your identity you shouldn't be allowed to vote.  There are a myriad of ways to prove one's identity - voter ID card, birth certificate, social security card, passport, driver's license, etc...  This would not even be a material issue but for the open border policy we were stuck with.  

[73 Reds]

32 minutes ago, Spekulatius said:

I posted this before, but it’s quite hard in the US to get an ID that proves you are US citizen. That‘s why many Americans don’t have a passport. If you can’t produce your birth certificate, it’s quite a problem.

A driving license which most people have doesn’t prove anything. It has nothing to do with being an US citizen or US person for that matter. A reform of the voting system would need to start with a program to provide an ID card to anyone.

And yes, it is hard for a non-US citizen to prove US citizenship - that is precisely the point.  When foreigners apply for and become US citizens they receive a Certificate of Naturalization.  Otherwise, everyone born in the US receives a birth certificate.  Every State has a Department of Vital Statistics from which a certified copy of one's birth certificate can easily be obtained.