Coronavirus

DooDiligence · March 2, 2021

Performance art. A quick search on youtube shows some ridiculous examples by Yoko Ono.

This was undoubtedly not intended as performance art, but I'm searching for ideas that would stand out on a stage, and this one ain't bad. It's pretty outlandish and topical.

Back to disease control...

Investor20 · March 2, 2021

Want to know what scares me most...this.....

Lancet on Feb 04, 2021 published an article on Ivermectin

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(21)00024-9/fulltext

And to quote

"The most recent study on ivermectin is a pilot clinical trial by Chaccour et al." and they refer to a study by Chaccour that has

"Patients were randomized 1:1 to receive ivermectin, 400 mcg/kg, single dose (n = 12) or placebo (n = 12)."

That is 24 volunteers study...

Now what would you think? The best study with Ivermectin is with 24 subjects?

But WHO itself has a study:

https://covid-nma.com/living_data/index.php?comparison=36

I can count 9 RCTs... can you? Most larger than 24 subjects... Can you? Why cannot Lancet?

If you go to WHO all cause mortality with Ivermectin

https://covid-nma.com/living_data/index.php?comparison=36#images2-3

Do you see 0.19 risk ratio? Why cannot Lancet?

Is this the best Lancet (the best medical journal supposedly) can deliver? Thats what scares me most.

wachtwoord · March 2, 2021

Congrats, you discovered all influenza deaths are counted as "Corona" deaths. Most heart attacks are even counted as Corono deaths. How else could they inflate the numbers to such a ridiculous degree with a common cold infection?

KCLarkin · March 2, 2021

Interesting. In your cherry-picked study, they managed to kill 11/60 on SoC/Placebo? In all the other studies you listed, there was only one death TOTAL in ~450 patients?

Seems like Niaee's hospital system is very good at killing Covid patients. Maybe HCQ shouldn't be SoC?

KCLarkin · March 2, 2021

If only there was a simple way to test for Flu viruses...

patience_and_focus · March 2, 2021

Unfortunately country to country comparisons are not a good metric to show effect of vaccination on respiratory illness unless we take into account many other factors such as population density (400 / sq km for Israel vs 36 for US), mobility in a given timeframe, cultural practices etc.

In-fact I would posit that country to country comparison is fairly useless. It is much better for example to compare regions within each country with similar characteristics to draw any meaningful conclusions. That is why researchers from Israel used pre vaccination vs post vaccination data within the same regions in Israel and within a specific time frame as one of the comparisons to get a handle on effect of vaccination on spread. This also allowed them to control for other factors. One has to slice and dice this complex data in many ways to come to meaningful conclusion. This data may not be perfect but is far better than arbitrary but broad country based comparison.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.08.21251325v1

Please read methods section. Here is a snippet -

"Third, we used data with a higher geographical-resolution termed geographical statistical areas(GSAs). The GSAs are small, relatively homogeneous intra-city units defined by the Israeli Bureau of Statistics, with an average of 3,000 residents, within cities with more than 10,000 inhabitants."

Their conclusion (which I agree with) is that vaccination is effective in reducing hospitalizations / deaths in places where vaccination percentages are very high and is still following other covid guidelines.

Investor20 · March 2, 2021

That is not my cherry picked studies. They are cherry picked by

"Launched in March 2020, COVID-NMA is an international initiative working in conjunction with the World Health Organization (WHO), led by a team of researchers from Cochrane ..."

https://covid-nma.com/about-us/who-we-are.php

And you may have seen the risk ratio given by them....0.19 (0.07 - 0.55 95% confidence intervals).

Actually there is more data, but I was letting WHO & Cochrane cherry pick their data. My complaint is Lancet ignoring it and not even citing this.

There is another WHO related study funded by Unitaid.

https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-148845/v1

This meta-analysis investigated ivermectin in 18 randomized clinical trials (2282 patients) identified through systematic searches of PUBMED, EMBASE, MedRxiv and trial registries

"In six randomized trials of moderate or severe infection, there was a 75% reduction in mortality"

And my complaint is Lancet ignores all these studies and talks about 24 volunteer study.

Cigarbutt · March 2, 2021

@Investor20

It's probably not worthwhile discussing the specifics of ivermectin here.

Diversity of opinion is important and institutions like the FDA and CDC need to be improved but if you aim to present alternative options, you have to show also how your process is better than the alternatives.

Ivermectin is worth studying more but this is an area where the trust-but-verify approach applies within the present institutional framework, until proven otherwise.

With the coronavirus, many have been desperate for solutions and a big risk is to skip some critical steps.

For example, poison control agencies have seen a higher incidence of poisoning (unintentional): drinking bleach, pool cleaning products and more recently ivermectin.

https://www.sciencealert.com/people-are-accidentally-poisoning-themselves-using-horse-de-worming-drug-for-covid-19

-----

@wachtwoord

Diversity of individual opinions is important but, before arguing constructively, we have to agree about the definition of basic facts. The covid-flu confusion and the egregious death allocation to covid have been tools used by conspiracy-related groups and have not resisted the test of due diligence.

ValueArb · March 2, 2021

How do people get influenza if working in the house all day and rarely venture out without a mask?

If someone who is very ill with COVID has a heart-attack and dies, how would you determine cause? Are you saying the heart-attack was inevitable and would have happened on same day and been fatal without the person being ill?

If a 95 year old gets sick with COVID and dies, should we tell their kids and grandkids we don't count the COVID because their remaining life expectancy was so short?

ERICOPOLY · March 2, 2021

Is there really anything new under the sun?

Haven’t we always counted flu deaths as flu deaths even when the person was very old and with all manner of pre-existing conditions?

wachtwoord · March 2, 2021

Let me invert that for you:

1) How do people get Corona when working in the house all day? (yes Influenza is the same)

2) Well the official numbers if heart attacks is certainly too low a number. Heart attacks didnt suddenly drop 98% and neither did Influenza.

They do blood tests on dead people of any cause and if their "test" (which doesnt even test for Corona) cokes back positive they count it as Corona death even if he had zero symptons.

Come on people. Certainly you aren't all this retarded? :(

KCLarkin · March 2, 2021

If only there were a way to compare year-over-year deaths to test your novel theory... we could call it "excess mortality" (trademark).

wachtwoord · March 3, 2021

Dude you think it's the "conspiracy-related groups" theories that have not resisted the test of due dilligence? You are living your life wide asleep aren't you. Try to open your eyes. A blind person can see it.

Cigarbutt · March 3, 2021

i'll continue the discussion for the following reason: you post in the cryptocurrency thread and i'm trying to understand this interesting topic (it may take a long time becoz of mental retardation) but perspectives such as yours may be helpful.

1-Who is they?

2-Heart and related diseases have actually gone up during Covid and that's an interesting discussion (even potentially constructive despite opposing views).

Typical report from developed countries (you are from Belgium? the Netherlands? i assume that the same pattern played out there, especially during March to June 2020):

See below for full reference.

What became very obvious during the spring of last year was that people who had significant symptoms (heart attack or stroke especially) consciously decided to avoid or delay consulting appropriate resources. There's a bunch of people who died or who suffered irreversible complications from waiting. It's hard to allocate the cause of this phenomenon but the two main ones are 1-individual decisions based on their own assessments and 2-individual reacting to the institutional message (excessive?) that may have caused them to avoid necessary care. i don't have a clear answer here. What i can tell you though is that the cardiologists and neurologists (i guess part of the "they" people) became very concerned and organized to improve the message. So, overall, the evidence is that the virus, through a direct or indirect response was associated with increased heart and related morbidity and mortality was significant but this excess mortality explains a small part of the very significant excess mortality that happened over the course of this pandemic.

https://www.jacc.org/doi/10.1016/j.jacc.2020.10.055

Of course, i could be wrong. Please enligthen me. i want to see the Light. :)

Investor20 · March 3, 2021

CDC says "Given as a tablet in mass drug administrations, oral ivermectin has been used extensively and safely for over two decades in many countries to treat filarial worm infections. Although not FDA-approved for the treatment of lice, ivermectin tablets given in a single oral dose of 200 micrograms/kg or 400 micrograms/kg repeated in 9-10 days has been shown effective against head lice. It should not be used in children weighing less than 15 kg or in pregnant women."

https://www.cdc.gov/parasites/lice/head/treatment.html

Cigarbutt, is it your argument. that Ivermectin is safe for lice but not for Covid? I never seen anyone being hospitalized, put on Oxygen, let alone die with lice yet CDC is saying its good for lice.

Unitaid funded study had 18 Randomized clinical trials. How many Randomized clinical trials would satisfy you?

Note: Not a suggestion for treatment. Please consult your physician for any treatment. Only for discussion

Investor20 · March 3, 2021

India has low Covid. Several articles came up explaining. Here are two:

https://in.news.yahoo.com/no-mystery-top-american-pandemic-124500304.html

No Mystery, Top American Pandemic Expert Lists 9 Govt Actions Behind Plummeting Covid Cases in India

"“The message to go out from India therefore is ‘restrict travel in areas wherein cases are there, isolate cases and don’t allow them to transmit infection’,” he wrote."

Another one by Wall Street Journal

https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-19-was-consuming-india-until-nearly-everyone-started-wearing-masks-11609329603

Covid-19 Was Consuming India, Until Nearly Everyone Started Wearing Masks

The only problem is if you look at videos online, India had elections in October. But they had regular elections, not mail in ballot.

Here is one video of the elction campaign

Media was saying in October, the lack of distancing, masks etc would create havoc in India. However, the positivity rate fell dramatically since then. Now they are explaining (making up stories) that Indians wear masks and social distance better than other countries.

Here is a video of a cricket match in India. Do they look like wearing masks and social distancing?

Yet that is what the media carries as "ëxpert" opinion and journalism.

Note: Follow the guidances in your location. I am talking about honesty in reporting, whether in Lancet or Media and is for discussion only.

wachtwoord · March 3, 2021

@cicarbutt:

You ask who they is in my previous post. "They do blood tests on people .." so whoever is instructed by government officials to perform such tests (with tests being the pcr test).

Interesting that official records are showing no flatline for death by heart desease in Q2 2020 anymore. I wonder what the cause is of that. I can clearly remember there being one but cannot find numbers corroborating that right now.

Anyway seems at least my remark on current official numbers of heart attacks was incorrect.

ValueArb · March 3, 2021

1) Yes, I'm saying that the measures taken to prevent the spread of COVID (a much more dangerous illness) have also prevented the spread of Influenza.

2) Do you have a source for heart attacks declining 98%? I'm reading that deaths from heart disease are up during COVID, presumably because fewer people are seeking medical attention for its symptoms.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/why-heart-disease-deaths-rose-during-covid-19-surge

As for your asssertion about testing dead bodies for COVID to attribute it as a cause of death, do you have a source for that?

ERICOPOLY · March 3, 2021

The topic is covered here:

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/05/19/858390822/with-postmortem-testing-last-responders-shed-light-on-pandemic-s-spread

"If family or friends say the person had symptoms consistent with COVID-19, the coroner's office will typically do a nasal swab to test for the virus, he says. If the test is positive and the office can determine the cause of death without an autopsy, one will generally not be performed."

...

If a body at the morgue is positive for COVID-19, "you want to avoid doing an autopsy unless it's absolutely necessary," Melinek says, because of the risk of becoming exposed to the virus through aerosolized particles or blood. Plus, she noted, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration recommends against performing autopsies in COVID-19 deaths.

ValueArb · March 3, 2021

Thanks, Eric. But I'm not sure how to parse it. Part of the article seemed to imply COVID deaths were under reported last May (when the article was written) because of a lack of tests for morgues to use? I'm assuming the access to far more testing facilities since has changed that.

But if a dead body tests positive for COVID, and so they eschew an autopsy to report COVID as the cause, what percentage of the time is that wrong? If you had terminal cancer, and get COVID, is it wrong to think you would have lived a few months longer without it and your death should be reported as COVID?

I've googled looking for explanations but so far come up empty. All I can think is if i get COVID, my ex-wife has a free pass to come over to my house and poison me risk free now. It's more dangerous than I thought!

ERICOPOLY · March 3, 2021

It’s basically a little bit like rock, paper, scissors. Rock beats scissors even though scissors beats paper although in this case it may be a ways (many years) down the road.

And in this case paper typically beats rock in the absence of scissors.

From a high level, the common cold doesn’t push people into their graves the way covid-19 does, so credit where credit is due.

ERICOPOLY · March 3, 2021

But some covid-19 deaths will be of the stage 4 cancer variety...

I would say that the highest quality digital camera body paired with the sharpest lens will still not shoot a perfect image, but the quality of the image is excellent and obsessing upon a few pixels in the corners of the image is “pixel peeping”.

Investor20 · March 4, 2021

That is a great exaggaration. There are two parts

One is hospital acquired Covid-19.

https://www.infectioncontroltoday.com/view/problem-covid-19-hospital-acquired-infections

"SARS-CoV-2 is the virus that causes COVID-19 and unfortunately HSJ found that hospital-acquired infections (HAIs) are not uncommon, estimated to cause almost 1 in 4 hospital COVID-19 cases."

Many also get covid and their immunity does take care of it before it spreads. It is the few that go to that next stage that are in trouble. This is explained in the below article (Figure 2).

https://rcm.imrpress.com/article/2020/2153-8174/RCM2020264.shtml

"The early flu-like stage of viral replication provides a therapeutic window of tremendous opportunity to potentially reduce the risk of more severe sequelae in high risk patients. Precious time is squandered with a “wait and see” approach in which there is no anti-viral treatment as the condition worsens, possibly resulting in unnecessary hospitalization, morbidity, and death. Once infected, the only means of preventing a hospitalization in a high-risk patient is to apply treatment before arrival of symptoms that prompt paramedic calls or emergency room visits."

Yet NIH proposes using Remdiisiver after hospitalization, after viral replication and spread.

I wonder what Cigarbutt would say if someone proposes treating cancer after it spread through the body.

Note: Only for discussion. Please consult your physician for any treatment.

ERICOPOLY · March 4, 2021

I read your "two parts". Can you explain how that relates to my post?

Investor20 · March 4, 2021

That is why I referred to the Figure 2 in the article:

https://rcm.imrpress.com/article/2020/2153-8174/RCM2020264.shtml

As per these authors (57 medical doctors from many countries in a peer reviewed article) there are three stages to the Covid

1) Viral proliferation which is flu like (Ambulatory phase at home quarantine)

2) Cytokine injury in week to 10 days (Hospitalization)

3) Thrombosis and death which can take about a month. (Possible Death)

Your comment about Covid pushes people into death more than flu is only for the set of people who goes into second stage, and takes upto a month to get to stage of dying, unless they recover.

I dont think it is appropriate to take asymptomatic to mild sympomatic patients who does not have signs of going into second stage (Oxygen drop, lung radiology results, etc) and count them into Covid deaths. This set of people who are majority of people who get Covid, their immunity took care of Covid.

Hopefully I am more clearer.

1) This is particulary more important for 1 in 4 who catch Covid in hospital but hospitalized for something else (I gave a reference for this number) and die, they would not have been in hospital but for something else. This 25% I believe should not be counted as Covid deaths automatically.

2) Even for positives before admission, it should be based on if they went into second stage based on lung radiographic, oxygen levels etc. If it did not go into second stage, then it is flu like.

As an aside, I was pointing out the Table 1 in above article, where the authors list countries trying to treat people early in ambulatory phase instead of waiting and watching like in US to see if an infected person would go into second stage.

Note: As usual this is only for discussion, not treatment

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