Life is Crazy or Ask Scott About Life

[StevieV]

What's your opinion of the main stocks of this board:  Berkshire, Fairfax and Premier Diversified?

 

I like Berkshire generally, and have no strong feelings about the other two.

 

Scott,

 

 

What exactly does a DRM copywriter do?

 

DRM copywriters write great, big ads trying to sell you stuff you've never heard about and never knew you wanted. It's direct response marketing (DRM) as opposed to traditional copywriting (brand).

 

I think if you make money doing a job and if it brings steady income per month it helps cover your bill and etc. Whereas in investing, the returns are uncertain and to generate income to match let us say $50,000-$70,000 a year you need a lot of initial money in the first place to invest. I think that is why it is tough to make money as an individual investor.

 

Here are some questions.

 

So what is stopping you from being a DRM copywriter?

 

Have you found a compounder through a screener?

 

Have you thought about starting your own business?

 

I didn't say anything about investing directly making you money... there are ways to make money from your "skills" without actually needing them to be cash generative in and of themselves.

 

Nothing is stopping me from writing DRM copy; I do so now, casually, but my skill level isn't as high as it would be if I'd focused on that instead.

 

No. I don't use screeners.

 

Yes, I have. :)

 

How did you get started in DRM?  Where do you get something to sell?  Who do you sell it to?  How do you do it casually?

[ScottHall]

How did you get started in DRM?  Where do you get something to sell?  Who do you sell it to?  How do you do it casually?

 

Hi Stevie,

 

I was working at the Motley Fool at the time, and asked to learn more about our advertising from a couple of friends who were proven DRM copywriters who worked at the company. They taught me the basics, and then I entered a copywriting tournament the company was having to test myself. I ended up beating 7 or 8 other people and won the tournament. That was my entry to this side of the marketing industry.

 

You can get something to sell all sorts of places. You can sell physical goods if you want; Agora sells razors, for example, and a lot of companies sell supplements and other such things. You can also sell what are called invisible products; these are your newsletters of various sorts, for example. Investment newsletters, health newsletters, dating newsletters. Whatever you can conjure up in your head, really. You can sell pretty much anything if you're a good enough story teller.

 

I work on the invisible products side of the industry. You can also work TV if you want; infomercials are just another form of DRM. You can sell power juicers, snuggies, late night real estate scams courses. Whatever.

 

How do I do it casually? Contacts, basically. I know a few major players in the industry and they'll occasionally offer me work; I don't actively seek it out, because I don't want a full time job. It's sort of like how I imagine Hollywood to be. The easiest way to get in is to be in.

 

There is a whole cottage industry for selling seminars about how to be a copywriter. A lot of people want to do it and are willing to shell out to find out how. I kind of stumbled into the industry by working for a company in the industry, in a non-copy role, and making friends with those who were in copy roles.

 

It's also possible to start your own DRM business and write copy for yourself, but unless you know what you're doing, you're going to lose a lot of money. Most people don't know how to sell in the manner required in this business.

[ScottHall]

One other thing. Other than reading existing packages that have done well, one thing that is helpful for learning how to sell is watching old professional wrestling promos. Vince McMahon and a lot of old timey wrestlers have great DRM minds. It's true even now, but back before PPV in the territory system they had to talk people into the building or else there wasn't gonna be any money to get paid.

 

UFC is sort of the opposite. Only a handful of guys really know how to talk in that business. Fortunately, the promoter is one of them. They're easier to point out though, because there are so few of them: Chael Sonnen and Conor McGregor come to mind.

[StevieV]

One other thing. Other than reading existing packages that have done well, one thing that is helpful for learning how to sell is watching old professional wrestling promos. Vince McMahon and a lot of old timey wrestlers have great DRM minds. It's true even now, but back before PPV in the territory system they had to talk people into the building or else there wasn't gonna be any money to get paid.

 

UFC is sort of the opposite. Only a handful of guys really know how to talk in that business. Fortunately, the promoter is one of them. They're easier to point out though, because there are so few of them: Chael Sonnen and Conor McGregor come to mind.

 

Thanks!  Some more questions.

 

(1)  Who do you send the copy to?  A big part of DRM would appear to be having the correct mailing list (now email list).  People who are at least somewhat interested in the type of product you are selling.  Are your employers providing the list?  How is it developed?

 

(2)  The style of DRM copy doesn't appear very natural to me.  TMF is a great example.  Very promotional.  Not particularly real.  I have never been tempted to buy one of their products.  I assume, however, that their copy is effective.  Is that style somewhat natural to the copy writers you know or is it a matter of learning an effective style?

 

(3)  I don't follow you on Twitter, but I get the idea from this board that you want to live somewhat outside the mainstream.  I also know you don't spend a lot.  How would you advise someone who wanted to live outside the mainstream (i.e., location independent; not a traditional job; etc.) to start on making a living if they thought they would have more significant financial obligations?  Not for me specifically - I have a relatively comfortable mainstream job.

[ScottHall]

Thanks!  Some more questions.

 

(1)  Who do you send the copy to?  A big part of DRM would appear to be having the correct mailing list (now email list).  People who are at least somewhat interested in the type of product you are selling.  Are your employers providing the list?  How is it developed?

 

(2)  The style of DRM copy doesn't appear very natural to me.  TMF is a great example.  Very promotional.  Not particularly real.  I have never been tempted to buy one of their products.  I assume, however, that their copy is effective.  Is that style somewhat natural to the copy writers you know or is it a matter of learning an effective style?

 

(3)  I don't follow you on Twitter, but I get the idea from this board that you want to live somewhat outside the mainstream.  I also know you don't spend a lot.  How would you advise someone who wanted to live outside the mainstream (i.e., location independent; not a traditional job; etc.) to start on making a living if they thought they would have more significant financial obligations?  Not for me specifically - I have a relatively comfortable mainstream job.

 

(1) Everyone in the industry uses mailing lists for at least part of their business. There are there are three ways to get them. The first one is to do it organically, by writing content people want to see and capturing e-mail addresses on your website. The benefit of this is that, if you're doing this yourself, it's essentially free and the leads are high quality. However, it's not really something you can scale.

 

The second method is advertising, but this is a dangerous game, because if your copy isn't strong you won't earn back what you spend and you can lose a small fortune on a bad ad. The big boys in DRM can afford missing shots; as an independent, you really need your ads to work. Additionally, prospects acquired from advertisement are generally considered not as valuable as prospects you reach organically. They'll probably have less interest in the subject matter to begin with.

 

This can lead to all sorts of negative outcomes, which make forecasting profitability more difficult. You also don't really know if you're going to break even until post-sale, which is a scary prospect when you're talking about putting up maybe tens of thousands of dollars to get a good sample.

 

The third type is list rentals. These can be very lucrative if you strike a good deal, but the quality of the list you rent can be a real crapshoot. You might make back multiples of your cost, or the list may be so heavily marketed to and so combed over that it's completely worthless.

 

I can't really give specifics about any company I've worked for, but this is how DRM works generally. There have been articles written about it in the past that are pretty close to the truth.

 

(2) I can't comment on TMF's copy, or any copy of any company I've worked for. However, what you're describing is typical and also a typical reaction from an outsider. These ads don't work on everybody, not even close. But it's industry standard for a reason, and I mean that far beyond just investment newsletters. That's all I really want to say about that.

 

(3) If you have significant financial obligations, you've already screwed up. Most people fuck up by going to college and taking student loans. College is a scam. Then they get married, which isn't necessarily a bad idea. Then they have kids, which is an even bigger scam. If you want to live like I do, you have to avoid responsibility like a plague. The reason I've always been able to tell my bosses to go fuck themselves is because I've never needed them. The more financial responsibilities you have, the more you need your bosses, and the more of a wage slave you become.

 

Don't go to college (unless free/cheap vs. income prospects), don't have kids, don't have a mortgage (or maybe do if you live in a nonrecourse state), don't have credit card debt. Don't have furniture, avoid vehicle ownership if at all possible, and enjoy your life.

[LR1400]

I admire your ability to blaze your own trail. It's certainly crossed my mind. I like the idea of frugality, but I don't think I would enjoy extreme frugality. The wiser, older people I know don't really espouse the idea of extreme frugality, not Buffett or Munger either.

 

Do you think your depression at a younger age was related to your more solitary existence?

[ScottHall]

I admire your ability to blaze your own trail. It's certainly crossed my mind. I like the idea of frugality, but I don't think I would enjoy extreme frugality. The wiser, older people I know don't really espouse the idea of extreme frugality, not Buffett or Munger either.

 

Do you think your depression at a younger age was related to your more solitary existence?

 

Yes, probably.

[DooDiligence]

I shouldn't disturb that near perfect ending but...

 

Hey Scott,

 

Were you compensated for product placement by Monster Bev in your “make America great vidi?”

 

<del>What’s the significance of the Langley lat long?</del>

 

What happens if you give a pig a pancake?

 

Where can I find the recipe for Uncle Sidney’s Snickerdoodles if I don’t want to buy the book?

 

Did you get a woody when Vince McMahon said FU to his distributors? (quitting should always be an option…)

 

Did you become an Agora affiliate because they sold Razor’s?

 

Do you think ROH is the crown jewel of Sinclair & does the BC shirt in any way allude to this <em>(OK that may have been ridiculous, I know, you're just a fan.)</em>

 

(follow up: was the shirt freshly washed in the vidi?)

 

<del>Are you still sleeping on the air mattress or is it back to the floor</del> & does Patchwork sleep on or near your face?

 

I have a Fortune Telling 8 ball that lies to me constantly so I ordered the 2000 ed of Walker’s Manual of $0.01 Stocks (is the 4th ed of Unlisted Stocks still usable?)

 

Also ordered B $ Kiss & 1856 (will this be sufficient to juice my returns?)

 

Can you disregard my previous question “do you do vidi?”

[DooDiligence]

Another quick question

 

Can you describe entering into a credit default swap with another player in House Rules Monopoly & what happens when the third player comes up short after landing on a pimped-out Boardwalk? Please...

 

(I'm serious, I wanna do this with some friends this weekend...)

[flesh]

I learned about copy writing a few different ways. I had various products I was selling through Direct mail marketing and then rented my own buyer list. I would look to see who rented my list, because they rented my list I had access to their mail piece. I would then order there cheap introductory product or service thereby getting on their customer list, then I would read through the 50 or so mail pieces I received each month for anything from sex toys to business opportunities.

 

During the depth's of the recession, with my response rates down from 3% to 1.25% and my dollar per lead down from 200 - 90 I learned to innovate. Dollar per lead is the amount of revenue derived from each lead generated. There really is nothing like a great recessions to teach you about business. Especially when your on the front line. From 2007-2010 profits were down 85%. Which was effectively going from hero to mediocre.

 

One, everyone's credit sucked so I signed up with a billing company and designed a financing program where I basically covered my hard costs, of COGS, and the rest was received over 18-36 month contracts, I had no idea how many people would pay and for how long, but my costs were covered. No downside, high upside. As it turned out, about 70% of total contracted monies were received, much better than I expected. This is turn changed my business from a cash machine with huge up's and downs to a stable grower. Basically, for the first three years of this program, sales and profits had to go up because the finance portfolio was always growing. After three years I knew it would continue to improve, having to do with the maturity of the portfolio. If sales are constant, and the portfolio reaches maximum capacity at the 3 year mark of from when the financing started due to a maximum of 36 month contracts. I didn't realize at the time how much maturity would matter. Basically, in a portfolio with an average duration of 22 months and a maximum of 36 months, what happens is the 30% who don't pay become a smaller and smaller % of the total portfolio over time. Reminds me of cacc in some ways.

 

Another thing I did that relates to copy writing, against my copy writers advice was I changed my promotional offer from a 100% money back guarantee to a 200% money back guarantee. Of course this was a test and I only did it with 100k mail pieces. My copy writer said that he had never seen it done before and he thought that people would order it to simply send it back at a profit. He also said that the DPL or dollar per lead average (up sell sales) would decline because the quality of the lead would decline caused by the profit seekers.

 

My contrarian point of view at the time of initiation was the following:

 

-I thought people were too lazy to send it back

-I thought people would forget they could make a profit

-I thought more people would order item(s) and some of them would be up sold

-I thought because it was an uncommon practice it would build credibility in the products

-I thought it would shock people into ordering who normally wouldn't have

-I knew that I didn't know and should always be testing something

 

The result was that my response rate immediately went from 1.25% to 2% and the DPL went from 90 to 120. There was increased returns of the products, they went from 3% to 7%. The cost of the increased returns were about 1% of the additional profits.

 

Anyways not to derail thread but all this drm stuff brought back memories.

 

Scott, I know some great copy writers if you're interested.

 

 

[ScottHall]

Thank you Doo Diligence and Flesh for your latest questions and commentary. I appreciate it.

 

However, I will not be responding to any of them because this forum has become a sad sack of Special Snowflakes who are uncapable of accepting dissenting opinion without acting like babies.

 

As a result, this forum is no longer worthy of my time and I will be taking a sabbatical from the Nanny State as of this time.

[DooDiligence]

Thank you Doo Diligence and Flesh for your latest questions and commentary. I appreciate it.

 

However, I will not be responding to any of them because this forum has become a sad sack of Special Snowflakes who are uncapable of accepting dissenting opinion without acting like babies.

 

As a result, this forum is no longer worthy of my time and I will be taking a sabbatical from the Nanny State as of this time.

 

Crap, there goes my Monopoly plans...

[OracleofCarolina]

Thank you Doo Diligence and Flesh for your latest questions and commentary. I appreciate it.

 

However, I will not be responding to any of them because this forum has become a sad sack of Special Snowflakes who are uncapable of accepting dissenting opinion without acting like babies.

 

As a result, this forum is no longer worthy of my time and I will be taking a sabbatical from the Nanny State as of this time.

 

First the Fat Boys break up, now this! It's a cruel world!

[Patmo]

Reading your posts is so weird. It's like you are bipolar and it manifests itself in the form of a troll...

[DooDiligence]

Reading your posts is so weird. It's like you are bipolar and it manifests itself in the form of a troll...

 

Me or Scott?

 

Please let it be me!!!

[LC]

Scott, what is your lifetime IRR?

[Parsad]

Scott,

 

Appreciated the post before it was taken down.  There's a lot of value in what you've learned.

 

For what it's worth Scott and I had emailed back and forth mid-2011 and he was the only who mentioned the Walkers Manual of Unlisted Stocks to me.  From there I ended up deep in the weeds with unknown companies.  Those few conversations helped me blaze my own path in the investment world.  I doubt that was the intention but that's what happened.  Sometimes you plant a seed and it's unknown what type of plant will grow from it.

 

Thanks!

Nate

 

Ah, I never took down any posts in the last 48 hours, only closed three boards because I was getting complaints of too much politics on the board again.  If anything was deleted, it was deleted by the writer.  Cheers!

[writser]

Reading your posts is so weird. It's like you are bipolar and it manifests itself in the form of a troll...

 

Yeah, somebody should probably notify social services. Or at least inform the police if he starts buying assault rifles.

[DooDiligence]

Reading your posts is so weird. It's like you are bipolar and it manifests itself in the form of a troll...

 

Yeah, somebody should probably notify social services. Or at least inform the police if he starts buying assault rifles.

 

Really? Jeez...

[Jurgis]

Reading your posts is so weird. It's like you are bipolar and it manifests itself in the form of a troll...

 

Yeah, somebody should probably notify social services. Or at least inform the police if he starts buying assault rifles.

 

Might be too late?  ::)

 

 

@anyonehumorimpaired: dis iz black humor

[Spekulatius]

Scotty is probably getting stoned as I write this.

[ScottHall]

Scott, what is your lifetime IRR?

 

This is publicly available on my Twitter stream. I've publicly disclosed my returns so far this year (now dated), last year, the year before that, and XIRR since 2008 (when I turned 18 and opened an account in my own name). I can give you an update of this year's returns, because what I posted on my Twitter is now dated. I'm too lazy to dig the rest up ATM but you can find it easily enough.

 

My return YTD is: 21.52% on a total of 31 positions.

 

I learned about copy writing a few different ways. I had various products I was selling through Direct mail marketing and then rented my own buyer list. I would look to see who rented my list, because they rented my list I had access to their mail piece. I would then order there cheap introductory product or service thereby getting on their customer list, then I would read through the 50 or so mail pieces I received each month for anything from sex toys to business opportunities.

 

During the depth's of the recession, with my response rates down from 3% to 1.25% and my dollar per lead down from 200 - 90 I learned to innovate. Dollar per lead is the amount of revenue derived from each lead generated. There really is nothing like a great recessions to teach you about business. Especially when your on the front line. From 2007-2010 profits were down 85%. Which was effectively going from hero to mediocre.

 

One, everyone's credit sucked so I signed up with a billing company and designed a financing program where I basically covered my hard costs, of COGS, and the rest was received over 18-36 month contracts, I had no idea how many people would pay and for how long, but my costs were covered. No downside, high upside. As it turned out, about 70% of total contracted monies were received, much better than I expected. This is turn changed my business from a cash machine with huge up's and downs to a stable grower. Basically, for the first three years of this program, sales and profits had to go up because the finance portfolio was always growing. After three years I knew it would continue to improve, having to do with the maturity of the portfolio. If sales are constant, and the portfolio reaches maximum capacity at the 3 year mark of from when the financing started due to a maximum of 36 month contracts. I didn't realize at the time how much maturity would matter. Basically, in a portfolio with an average duration of 22 months and a maximum of 36 months, what happens is the 30% who don't pay become a smaller and smaller % of the total portfolio over time. Reminds me of cacc in some ways.

 

Another thing I did that relates to copy writing, against my copy writers advice was I changed my promotional offer from a 100% money back guarantee to a 200% money back guarantee. Of course this was a test and I only did it with 100k mail pieces. My copy writer said that he had never seen it done before and he thought that people would order it to simply send it back at a profit. He also said that the DPL or dollar per lead average (up sell sales) would decline because the quality of the lead would decline caused by the profit seekers.

 

My contrarian point of view at the time of initiation was the following:

 

-I thought people were too lazy to send it back

-I thought people would forget they could make a profit

-I thought more people would order item(s) and some of them would be up sold

-I thought because it was an uncommon practice it would build credibility in the products

-I thought it would shock people into ordering who normally wouldn't have

-I knew that I didn't know and should always be testing something

 

The result was that my response rate immediately went from 1.25% to 2% and the DPL went from 90 to 120. There was increased returns of the products, they went from 3% to 7%. The cost of the increased returns were about 1% of the additional profits.

 

Anyways not to derail thread but all this drm stuff brought back memories.

 

Scott, I know some great copy writers if you're interested.

 

These are some great stories, Flesh. I like how your out of the box thinking helped create better economics for your business.

 

I've worked in various roles in different marketing organizations. I've done copywriting, helped determine returns on various promotions and in aggregate, aimed at justifying more resources for growth. The biggest companies in my industry are not small, though some seem to think that's the case from my discussions with others here.

 

Most of that sort of IRR analysis is only useful if you're not the agent in charge of the wallet, so to speak. If you know a piece of copy is good and have agency you don't have to justify the expense to anyone... I've sort of been gradually shifting myself in that direction. More towards owner-operator, less of a cog in the machine.

 

I've been focusing on honing my skills for that. I recently wrote a piece of copy on royalty that ended up being the biggest of the year so far for that particular client. My cut for 20 days of writing ended up approximating my salary from my old gig.

 

Persuasion is an incredibly useful skill. I'd love to chat with you about your war stories in the future, if you're game. I don't really need a copywriter, but I love to talk with others about their experiences in the industry. I could tell you some interesting refund ideas I've used in the past... I bet we could compare a lot of notes on that!

 

I can't really discuss all of this publicly... but feel free to e-mail or PM me.

[LC]

Thanks - I tried looking thru ur twitter for it but there are so many tweets...it was entertaining at least. Funny seeing COBF screenshots being on twitter :D

[ScottHall]

F.A.N.M.A.I.L.

 

Well guys, now that I'm back in action it's time to share some fan mail I received on sabbatical.

 

I have the best fans, but this time the mail came from none other than The Chairman, Jeff Moore of Sitestar.

 

On top of getting two cool looking investing book, there were also hidden goodies packed away inside...

 

Stickers!

 

Two Ragnar stickers and a heaping helping of Willow Oak Asset Management stickers. What great Sitestar swag.

 

So a huge shout out to Ragnar for the shareholder swag, considering I was forced to miss the Sitestar shareholder meeting this year.

 

Will these stickers become a lucrative opportunity down the line? As Steve and team grow the business, these could become collector's items someday. I'm not selling a single sticker.

 

If YOU want to do your duty of sending me fan mail and appearing on this thread, please PM me here or on Twitter to see how you can get involved in the Scotty community.

 

[DooDiligence]

F.A.N.M.A.I.L.

 

-----

 

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