Is Europe becoming uninvestable?

[Dalal.Holdings]

6 hours ago, Spekulatius said:

You can critizise politicians here as you like. You won’t get sued, you account will just get cancelled.

 

 

FYI that account has been reinstated:

 

Elon is definitely a hypocrite if that's why the account got cancelled--but notice in this case it's not the government fining anyone nor sending anyone to jail--it's a private social media platform.

 

 

5 hours ago, Loss Horizon said:

I'm also puzzled why this topic came up at all. China is doing better than Europe economically, and free speech there is much worse. No idea why it's in the focus in investor's discussion.

 

The CCP doesn't make posts on "protecting Free Speech" like European leaders do though. European leaders are being dishonest while the Chinese are up front about what they do. They do not pretend.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 20 hours ago by Dalal.Holdings

[Dalal.Holdings]

In the end, suppressing your population leads to some sort of revolution and that is what I think is relevant here--

 

AfD is leading in the polls in Germany

 

Reform is leading in the polls in the UK

 

National Rally is leading in the polls in France

 

There is a clear pattern here...the people are sick of their voices and opinions being suppressed. At some point, the political status quo will burst at the seams. This is because European leaders have been using undemocratic means of suppressing the will of their people for too long and so the people are turning to something radically different than the status quo.

[cubsfan]

22 minutes ago, RichardGibbons said:

 

Huh. I thought you agreed with the right to bear arms. And what does that have to do with a dude moving pamphlets? Did he have a gun? Did he shoot someone?

To summarize your argument, you're saying that a dude who transports "free speech" deserves 30 years in prison because people he knew had guns.

 

What are you talking about...

 

The dude was convicted for trying to hide evidence of his wife's significant involvement with the violent attack on the ICE facility.

 

I said I feel sorry for the guy getting 30 years.

 

Nothing in his conviction had anything to do with "Free Speech" - only his role in 19 or 20 AntiFa members planning out and directing an attack on an ICE facility - and then hiding his wife's role.

 

You actually might want to read up on what actually happened.

[Loss Horizon]

1 hour ago, Dalal.Holdings said:

The CCP doesn't make posts on "protecting Free Speech" like European leaders do though. European leaders are being dishonest while the Chinese are up front about what they do.

Now it is competition in honesty. And ... China is winning?

 

1 hour ago, Dalal.Holdings said:

In the end, suppressing your population leads to some sort of revolution and that is what I think is relevant here--

 

AfD is leading in the polls in Germany

 

Reform is leading in the polls in the UK

 

National Rally is leading in the polls in France

 

There is a clear pattern here...the people are sick of their voices and opinions being suppressed. At some point, the political status quo will burst at the seams. This is because European leaders have been using undemocratic means of suppressing the will of their people for too long and so the people are turning to something radically different than the status quo.

 

Suppressing population is often successful, as it is shown by North Korea, Russia, and to great extent by modern China.

 

It's only developed democracies that are vulnerable to exploitation by populists. Because they maintain political freedoms to do so. In aspiring dictatorships all opposition is destroyed early and one person or a small group controls all parts of society.

Edited 18 hours ago by Loss Horizon

[Sweet]

6 hours ago, Loss Horizon said:

Now it is competition in honesty. And ... China is winning?

 

 

Suppressing population is often successful, as it is shown by North Korea, Russia, and to great extent by modern China.

 

It's only developed democracies that are vulnerable to exploitation by populists. Because they maintain political freedoms to do so. In aspiring dictatorships all opposition is destroyed early and one person or a small group controls all parts of society.

Democracy is an exercise in populism.  I keep seeing populism being framed universally bad.  It isn’t.

 

I’m from Europe, and anybody who doesn’t think there are issues with free speech in our continent aren’t seeing straight.  You should be allowed to criticise politicans, policies, cultures, immigration, whatever.

 

Everyone agrees there is a line somewhere but we haven’t got it right.  In my life time there has certainly been a rolling back of free speech. 

 

 

[Dalal.Holdings]

Ah yes—we all must be wary when populism “exploits” democracy (which is literally Greek for “rule by the People”).

 

Gives this day its true meaning. Happy 4th of July!

[RichardGibbons]

15 hours ago, cubsfan said:

What are you talking about...

 

It's as I said--you support obvious political repression, abandon your support of free speech and the right to bear arms, because it's your side doing the persecuting.

Everyone sees it. If you lived in North Korea, you'd be strenuously claiming Kim Jong Il had a round of golf with 11 holes-in-one because there were many witnesses.

[cubsfan]

26 minutes ago, RichardGibbons said:

 

It's as I said--you support obvious political repression, abandon your support of free speech and the right to bear arms, because it's your side doing the persecuting.

Everyone sees it. If you lived in North Korea, you'd be strenuously claiming Kim Jong Il had a round of golf with 11 holes-in-one because there were many witnesses.

 

Somehow Richard, I never figured you for an Antifa supporter that would tolerate the attempted murder of US officials. You're always full of surprises....better luck next time.

 

You got duped by Yahoo News again - try the Judicial sources next time - and you won't be so gullible and naive.

 

https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndtx/pr/antifa-cell-members-convicted-prairieland-ice-detention-center-shooting

 

Nine North Texas Antifa Cell operatives were convicted today by a federal jury in Fort Worth, Texas for their roles in rioting, using weapons and explosives, providing material support to terrorists, obstruction, and attempted murder of an Alvarado police officer and unarmed correctional officers at the Prairieland ICE Detention Center on July 4, 2025.

 

“These guilty verdicts and convictions rightly reflect the vicious, armed attack that these Antifa cell members planned and executed against law enforcement and detention center officers on the night of July 4 last year,” said U.S. Attorney Ryan Raybould. “Their terrorist acts, attempted murder, vandalism, and explosives launched at a detention facility were a far cry from some peaceful protest or First Amendment expression.   Sixteen people have been brought to justice for these violent acts and their attempts to conceal them.  We will continue in this mission to hold others accountable who perpetrate such violence and fund these ANTIFA groups in the Northern District of Texas.”

 

Trial testimony reflected that, late at night on July 4, at least eleven of the defendants rioted and attacked the Prairieland Detention Center in Alvarado, Texas, which the U.S. Department of Homeland Security was using to house illegal aliens awaiting deportation.   Evidence introduced at trial revealed that the defendants brought eleven firearms, body armor, and eleven military-grade first aid kits with tourniquets and other items for gunshot wounds to the scene of the attack.  Many of these items were introduced by the government as exhibits.  

Edited 3 hours ago by cubsfan

[RichardGibbons]

1 hour ago, cubsfan said:

Somehow Richard, I never figured you for an Antifa supporter that would tolerate the attempted murder of US officials. You're always full of surprises....better luck next time.

 

To make it clear, I'm fully against fascism.  I don't know WTF antifa actually is, because it seems like a Schrodinger's word. Like, say, "feminism" or "fascism" or "liberalism", the meaning of antifa seems to change based on the convenience of whoever's using it.

 

I think politically, theoretically, you and are on the same side of centre--I'm basically a classical liberal. As such, I believe in things like freedom of speech, civil liberties, free markets, and low levels of regulation. I think the government should interfere with free markets largely in areas where there's good evidence that the benefits significantly outweigh the downside (universal healthcare with private and public components and anti-trust are the two that immediately come to mind for me.)

 

Right now, the challenge for me is that in Canada, the left wing has shifted us way left, far from sensible classical liberal policies,and I get the sense that the same is true of Europe. The USA is doing the exact same thing from the opposite side. All of these are toxic trends toward authoritarianism, just from different sides.

 

That's my point that polarization is terrible--it allows both sides to push us toward authoritarianism by saying that they're doing it to fight back against the evil people on the other side.

[cubsfan]

27 minutes ago, RichardGibbons said:

 

To make it clear, I'm fully against fascism.  I don't know WTF antifa actually is, because it seems like a Schrodinger's word. Like, say, "feminism" or "fascism" or "liberalism", the meaning of antifa seems to change based on the convenience of whoever's using it.

 

I think politically, theoretically, you and are on the same side of centre--I'm basically a classical liberal. As such, I believe in things like freedom of speech, civil liberties, free markets, and low levels of regulation. I think the government should interfere with free markets largely in areas where there's good evidence that the benefits significantly outweigh the downside (universal healthcare with private and public components and anti-trust are the two that immediately come to mind for me.)

 

Right now, the challenge for me is that in Canada, the left wing has shifted us way left, far from sensible classical liberal policies,and I get the sense that the same is true of Europe. The USA is doing the exact same thing from the opposite side. All of these are toxic trends toward authoritarianism, just from different sides.

 

That's my point that polarization is terrible--it allows both sides to push us toward authoritarianism by saying that they're doing it to fight back against the evil people on the other side.

 

Antifa is a designated terrorist organization here in the United States - so it's no joke - Mafia or organized crime, but dedicated to overthrowing the US government through violent means.

 

You're right about the left, but incorrect on the right in the USA.  Like my buddy CW, I never hear definitions of "authoritarianism" which gets thrown around here on CoBF every day.  The term always gets thrown around - but never any specifics.

 

The USA is currently very polarized, but that's what happens when you are at an impasse - with one group leaning hard toward socialism/communism and the other group fighting to keep our traditional government from changing.  The politics is very ugly.