ourkid8 Posted April 15 Posted April 15 7 hours ago, changegonnacome said: @ourkid8 first things first - no country is monolith….Iran didn’t have an active Manhattan project, sure the evidence demonstrates that , but shifting factions within Iran exist that actively advocate for having one. So not having a Manhattan project today is not the same as never having one. When you twin that with a civilian nuclear program and advancing ballistic missile program. Well you see the issue - all the jigsaw pieces are there. Bibi is in the business of imminent threat inflation but you are the in the business of threat deflation. The answer is somewhere in between. Iran thought they could play this game of being half in and half out of the nuclear weapons game….I’ve heard the theory that, caught in a sanctions trap, the reason they enriched to such high levels was a trading chip they could negotiate away for sanctions relief (the evidence bears this out every version of the Geneva deals had them diluting this 60% enriched uranium down). However this game of will they, won’t they has turned out to be an exceptionally dumb strategy. It gave Bibi & US hawks their best evidence that this is not a civilian program. Make me President of Iran 20yrs ago and I would have raced for a bomb - it’s beyond dumb that the resource constrained North Korean’s developed one while the comparatively advanced Iranian’s didn’t….that is a huge blunder on their part. To the theory that somehow Iran would 100% use said bomb to destroy Israel and NYC the very next day (the crazy jihadist death cult theory)…..well….its a war hawk fantasy…we used to say the same thing about crazy guy in N.Korea before they got nukes…..Seoul last I checked is still there…..nuclear weapons are fundamentally a deterrent, doubly so when the MAD dynamic exists bilaterally which it does with Iran’s real adversaries the US and Israel. I don’t believe the US/Israel “had to do something now” re:Iran….this was a war of choice underpinned by an opportunistic assessment of regime fragility but it’s not be confused with there being no proliferation threat at all coming from Iran….Iran should want a bomb because if you walk a mile their shoes- it makes so much god damn sense for them to have one, it’s the ultimate deterrent. Dont take it from me the former Israeli Prime Minister said so….and he was honest enough to say that Iran wants a bomb not to destroy Israel but rather because if you lived in that neighborhood with the neighbors you have - you’d be foolish not to want one too! Crazy jihadist mullahs is a threat inflation caricature…. highly rational mullahs is more accurate (as it pertains to potentially wanting a slam dunk deterrent like nukes)…. Charlie Rose Show, November 2011 Charlie Rose: "If you were Iran, wouldn't you want a nuclear weapon?" Ehud Barak: > "Probably, probably. I don't delude myself that they are doing it just because of Israel. They have their history of 4,000 years. They look around and they see the Indians are nuclear. The Chinese are nuclear, Pakistan is nuclear as well as North Korea, not to mention the Russians." The West loves to demonize Iran, but let's speak the truth. Iran, an ancient civilization under constant siege by U.S. bases, nuclear Israel, and decades of sanctions, coups, and assassinations, has every sovereign right to pursue a nuclear deterrent for survival. Ayatollah Khamenei was the main reason Iran never built nuclear weapons. He repeatedly issued a fatwa declaring them un-Islamic and against Iran's defensive doctrine. What does the U.S. and Israel do? Kill him on day one of their cowardly strikes — a clear message that peace and restraint get you assassinated, while North Korea builds bombs and gets left alone. Iran's "half-in, half-out" enrichment was smart leverage after the U.S. tore up the JCPOA. Calling it a blunder ignores the hypocrisy: America and Israel threaten iran daily while preaching non-proliferation. Our leadership isn't crazy jihadists — they're rational survivors. A nuclear Iran would simply bring balance and deter further bullying. (If I was the new supreme leader, that’s what I would race to acquire) Agreed, This was never about imminent threat. It was opportunistic regime-change aggression by a declining empire. Iran doesn't seek war, but it will defend itself by any means necessary. Ayatollah Khamenei murder only proves why deterrence is essential. As per Ayatollah Khamenei playbook, Iran should come out of this significantly stronger. (I keep on mentioning, Israel better learn to play nice with their neighbours otherwise someone will teach these war criminals a lesson) The double standard is glaring — and the resistance continues.
ourkid8 Posted April 15 Posted April 15 7 hours ago, Parsad said: No, I'm not changing the subject. You are deflecting the fact that Iran's current regime is carrying out a religious war and is willing to do anything to destroy their enemies or perceived foes. If you have no fear of death or attachment to loved ones, because your faith supersedes rationality and emotion, you will do anything for your faith...look at the Christian nutjobs in the U.S., Israel, the Crusades, religious/ethnic cleansing, etc. People sometimes do the most inhumane things in the name of God! Luckily most of of those nutjobs aren't in power...but Iran's regime is! As Buffett says, if the odds of a major NCB disaster is 0.5% in any given year, it is almost a certainty to happen over a 100 years! Humanity's job is to reduce that risk each year whenever possible. That's means tackling/negotiating/restraining anyone...including Israel and the U.S. on any inclination to violence, let alone using NCB. But limiting the ability for new participants is just as important...especially those that would be willing to use them! Cheers! Sanjeev, let’s apply your own logic consistently instead of the usual double standard. You worry about a 0.5% annual risk of nuclear catastrophe. Fine. Then why does Israel get a free pass? - Israel has never signed the NPT — the only nuclear state in the region that refuses any transparency. - It defies UN Security Council resolutions demanding it open its nuclear facilities to IAEA inspectors. - Last year alone, Israel attacked at least 6 countries in the region. If there ever comes a day when Israel feels it must “fight for survival,” do you really want an undeclared nuclear arsenal with zero international controls in the hands of a country that’s shown it will strike first and ask questions later? Wouldn’t you want the exact same controls, inspections, and restraints you demand from any other nation — applied to Israel too? Your Buffett probability argument applies to every nuclear weapons state, especially the opaque ones. Iran’s program was defensive and restrained by Ayatollah Khamenei’s own fatwa (until the U.S./Israel killed him for it). Israel’s program is completely unaccountable. If we’re serious about reducing humanity’s nuclear risk over 100 years, we must stop the selective outrage. Apply the same rules to Israel. No exceptions.
ourkid8 Posted April 15 Posted April 15 7 hours ago, changegonnacome said: I expect to see the Gulf States do more and more deals like the one Saudis and Pakistan did. The world, as we know, is questioning the predictability and rationality of the US as a "partner". We are all starting to see Irans survival playbook and the direct impact it has on US. The goal is, US will come out of this war weaker than going in.
ourkid8 Posted April 15 Posted April 15 7 hours ago, Parsad said: You guys are right, but Iran's freaks ARE in power...Israel's and the U.S.' religious freaks ARE NOT in power. As crazy as Trump seems, he's as far from a religious zealot could be! In fact, we all know Trump has never read a bible passage in his whole life. He thinks Jesus is a Mexican that ICE deported last week! He's just pandering to the religious right because he's a salesman and wants their votes. He couldn't give two shits about any one group. It's why he constantly TACO's! Cheers! Sanjeev, you're still missing the point with this selective blindness. Even if you claim U.S. "religious freaks" aren't fully in power and Trump is just pandering (debatable), Israel's hardline religious nationalists absolutely are — and they shape policy. Ministers in Netanyahu’s government openly talk about biblical claims to land, "Amalek" rhetoric, and expanding settlements. Their influence is real, not just electoral theater.
Parsad Posted April 15 Posted April 15 30 minutes ago, ourkid8 said: The West loves to demonize Iran, but let's speak the truth. Iran, an ancient civilization under constant siege by U.S. bases, nuclear Israel, and decades of sanctions, coups, and assassinations, has every sovereign right to pursue a nuclear deterrent for survival. The double standard is glaring — and the resistance continues. Are we speaking the truth, or your truth? Every other country has the right to prevent Iran or any other country from attaining nuclear weapons. It's not some given right. It's something that was allowed to happen in the past, but no one wants it going forward. The ones who have it, cannot be stopped now because there is always the overhanging threat that it could be used. The world does not want more countries having nukes...whether a country thinks it is their right or not! And why is Iran seeking nukes anyway? Why not seek peace? Why not seek prosperity? Nuclear Israel could have used their nukes already...they haven't! Peace will lead Iranians to God...anything else will lead to disappointment and an outcome that is probably not desirable! Cheers!
ourkid8 Posted April 15 Posted April 15 10 hours ago, 73 Reds said: Ridding the World of destructive animals is a worthy endeavor. @Parsad this is exactly the problem. You banned me for simply using the Z word— calling it hate speech (fine) — yet you allow open calls for genocide like "Ridding the World of destructive animals is a worthy endeavor" when it’s directed at Arabs/Palestinians. That’s a blatant double standard.
Parsad Posted April 15 Posted April 15 28 minutes ago, ourkid8 said: Sanjeev, let’s apply your own logic consistently instead of the usual double standard. You worry about a 0.5% annual risk of nuclear catastrophe. Fine. Then why does Israel get a free pass? - Israel has never signed the NPT — the only nuclear state in the region that refuses any transparency. - It defies UN Security Council resolutions demanding it open its nuclear facilities to IAEA inspectors. - Last year alone, Israel attacked at least 6 countries in the region. If there ever comes a day when Israel feels it must “fight for survival,” do you really want an undeclared nuclear arsenal with zero international controls in the hands of a country that’s shown it will strike first and ask questions later? Wouldn’t you want the exact same controls, inspections, and restraints you demand from any other nation — applied to Israel too? Your Buffett probability argument applies to every nuclear weapons state, especially the opaque ones. Iran’s program was defensive and restrained by Ayatollah Khamenei’s own fatwa (until the U.S./Israel killed him for it). Israel’s program is completely unaccountable. If we’re serious about reducing humanity’s nuclear risk over 100 years, we must stop the selective outrage. Apply the same rules to Israel. No exceptions. Israel has had nuclear capability for 60 years! I'm not interested in watching another North Korea sprout up in the Middle East. Iran's history in the last 50 years doesn't indicate it deserves equal treatment to Israel or even Pakistan! You aren't applying my logic to the scenario above...you are applying the logic of someone who has a complete blindspot when it comes to the behavior of Iran as a sponsor of terrorism for nearly 50 years. There is no point in this discussion where you will ever convince me that the current Iranian regime deserves any benefit of the doubt...ANY BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT...that they should have highly enriched nuclear material, let alone nukes! Nothing you could EVER say would convince me of that unless this government is changed! Cheers!
Parsad Posted April 15 Posted April 15 5 minutes ago, ourkid8 said: @Parsad this is exactly the problem. You banned me for simply using the Z word— calling it hate speech (fine) — yet you allow open calls for genocide like "Ridding the World of destructive animals is a worthy endeavor" when it’s directed at Arabs/Palestinians. That’s a blatant double standard. 73Reds, I agree! You need to watch how you phrase stuff as well. Be more specific...you could say "destructive regime"..."destructive leaders"...etc. The word "animals" panders to the same debasement of people as less than human. Cheers!
LC Posted April 15 Posted April 15 22 minutes ago, Parsad said: And why is Iran seeking nukes anyway? Why not seek peace? Like I said I am no fan of Iran's leadership, but if I am some target vassal state, in today's world I am looking to be feared rather than loved.
Parsad Posted April 15 Posted April 15 13 minutes ago, LC said: Like I said I am no fan of Iran's leadership, but if I am some target vassal state, in today's world I am looking to be feared rather than loved. You mean like Israel or Ukraine. Ukraine gave up their nukes and look what happened! Israel was surrounded by a group of hostile regimes that wanted to wipe them off the face of the earth. Not just take over their land, but completely wipe out the population and race...genocide! It is only now, that really only Iran is left in the wake of that group of hostile governments that wanted Israel to disappear off the face of the earth. The last thing they need is a nuclear deterrent that would stop the world from using force to stop them from finishing what they've tried to do for nearly 50 years. I have no interest in fighting with my neighbor. But if they are firebombing my front door every month with a Molotov cocktail, I'm going to have to find something to deter them. I can't sell or move my house in Israel's case, so what options do I have? Cheers!
Marco Van Basten Posted April 16 Posted April 16 1 hour ago, LC said: Like I said I am no fan of Iran's leadership, but if I am some target vassal state, in today's world I am looking to be feared rather than loved. Nobody has been threatening Iran since the Iran-Iraq war. On the other hand, they have been busy meddling in Syria, threatening & meddling in Lebanon, Yemen, meddling and attacking US in Iraq, and finally sponsoring Hamas and Hezbollah knowing that their reason for existence is to wipe out Israel. Iranian finger prints were behind Jewish cultural center bombing in Argentina. So Iran has certainly not been a target vassal state, but just the opposite - a colonial power bent on dominating some neighbors and wiping out others.
ICUMD Posted April 16 Posted April 16 (edited) Kushners plan to redevelop Gaza. Through 'Affinity Partners' which he controls. Billions of dollars on the line for him. Use tax payer money to destroy and kill. Rebuild profits line private pockets. Trump and his legacy always win. Unbelievable. https://g.co/gemini/share/7a9d3a2600d9 Edited April 16 by ICUMD
cubsfan Posted April 16 Posted April 16 11 minutes ago, Marco Van Basten said: Nobody has been threatening Iran since the Iran-Iraq war. On the other hand, they have been busy meddling in Syria, threatening & meddling in Lebanon, Yemen, meddling and attacking US in Iraq, and finally sponsoring Hamas and Hezbollah knowing that their reason for existence is to wipe out Israel. Iranian finger prints were behind Jewish cultural center bombing in Argentina. So Iran has certainly not been a target vassal state, but just the opposite - a colonial power bent on dominating some neighbors and wiping out others. The Persians have been the most dangerous empire - building power in the Middle East for centuries. Nothing has changed.
Parsad Posted April 16 Posted April 16 33 minutes ago, ICUMD said: Kushners plan to redevelop Gaza. Through 'Affinity Partners' which he controls. Billions of dollars on the line for him. Use tax payer money to destroy and kill. Rebuild profits line private pockets. Trump and his legacy always win. Unbelievable. https://g.co/gemini/share/7a9d3a2600d9 He's a scumbag like his father and father-in-law! At the same time, they were pretty up front on how they planned on monetizing anything they get their hands on. Everyone should have known! Cheers!
LC Posted April 16 Posted April 16 50 minutes ago, Marco Van Basten said: Nobody has been threatening Iran since the Iran-Iraq war. On the other hand, they have been busy meddling in Syria, threatening & meddling in Lebanon, Yemen, meddling and attacking US in Iraq, and finally sponsoring Hamas and Hezbollah knowing that their reason for existence is to wipe out Israel Israel's got their fingers in everyone's cookie jar as well. This crap has been going on forever. Talk to a Persian and they'll go on for an hour about all of Israel's wrongs. Talk to an Israeli and it's the same thing...I'm not interested in who is right or wrong, in my estimation both sides are 100% wrong. I'm just saying, given US positioning and seeing Ukraine's experience, I could understand why Iran is not "going the path of peace." This new world order just incentivizes them even moreso to try and build nukes. And I'd say the same for Israel, if they didn't already have nukes and the roles were reversed. Like I said, I think both Iran and Israel are both 100% wrong, 100% crazy/volatile, and I don't trust either of them. 1 hour ago, Parsad said: I have no interest in fighting with my neighbor. But if they are firebombing my front door every month with a Molotov cocktail, I'm going to have to find something to deter them. I can't sell or move my house in Israel's case, so what options do I have? Cheers! I agree with you - but have you ever had a truly shitty neighbor? There is no good option...Both sides have destroyed the neighborhood...the only thing to do is get out!
Marco Van Basten Posted April 16 Posted April 16 13 minutes ago, LC said: Israel's got their fingers in everyone's cookie jar as well. This crap has been going on forever. Talk to a Persian and they'll go on for an hour about all of Israel's wrongs. Talk to an Israeli and it's the same thing...I'm not interested in who is right or wrong, in my estimation both sides are 100% wrong. I'm just saying, given US positioning and seeing Ukraine's experience, I could understand why Iran is not "going the path of peace." This new world order just incentivizes them even moreso to try and build nukes. And I'd say the same for Israel, if they didn't already have nukes and the roles were reversed. Like I said, I think both Iran and Israel are both 100% wrong, 100% crazy/volatile, and I don't trust either of them. I agree with you - but have you ever had a truly shitty neighbor? There is no good option...Both sides have destroyed the neighborhood...the only thing to do is get out! You are conveniently forgetting how this started. It wasn't Israel that decided to attack its neighbors, its neighbors started wars and then screamed bloody murder. Israel left Lebanon in 2000 and handed over Gaza to Palestinian Authority in 2005 if I recall correctly. So what happened after that? Constant attacks by Hamas and Hezbollah culminating in October 7th massacre. It wasn't Israel attacking its neighbors, the neighbors were attacking Israel. Israel offered Gaza and 98% of West Bank to Arafat in 1999 (name another country that conquered territory and then voluntarily gave it back to the attacker) and Arafat said no. Go back to 1973, Arab nations attack Israel. Go back to 1967, Arab countries getting ready to attack. Go back to 1948, again, armies of five Arab states attacked Israel, Israel fights them off, but Jordan takes West Bank (Judea and Samaria) and Egypt takes Gaza. The world does not give a damn about Palestinians under Jordanian or Egyptian rule until Israel captures them in 1967. Go back further - the Hebron massacre of 1929, historical attacks on Jews in their historical homeland during the millennia of Islamic conquest, including convert or die orders. You don't like Israel in Lebanon? Say thank you to PLO and Hezbollah. You don't like Israel controlling Judea and Samaria - say thank you to Jordan in 1967. You don't like war in Gaza - say thank you to Egypt as well as Hamas. You don't like Israel bombing Iran? Say thank you to Iranian support for Hezbollah and Hamas. By the way, you do realize that until 1979, Israel and Iran were buddies, and Israelis build the water system in Teheran? It wasn't the Israelis who chanted death to Iran and who started this fight in 1979, the mullahs did.
adesigar Posted April 16 Posted April 16 6 hours ago, Parsad said: Are we speaking the truth, or your truth? Every other country has the right to prevent Iran or any other country from attaining nuclear weapons. It's not some given right. It's something that was allowed to happen in the past, but no one wants it going forward. The ones who have it, cannot be stopped now because there is always the overhanging threat that it could be used. The world does not want more countries having nukes...whether a country thinks it is their right or not! And why is Iran seeking nukes anyway? Why not seek peace? Why not seek prosperity? Nuclear Israel could have used their nukes already...they haven't! Peace will lead Iranians to God...anything else will lead to disappointment and an outcome that is probably not desirable! Cheers! That’s a load of crap. Why should any country get to decide what another country does? What gives them the right to decide? And after what’s happened with Ukraine and Iran you can be sure that a lot of countries have received the message that a country is only safe if it has nuclear weapons.
Parsad Posted April 16 Posted April 16 5 hours ago, Marco Van Basten said: You are conveniently forgetting how this started. It wasn't Israel that decided to attack its neighbors, its neighbors started wars and then screamed bloody murder. Israel left Lebanon in 2000 and handed over Gaza to Palestinian Authority in 2005 if I recall correctly. So what happened after that? Constant attacks by Hamas and Hezbollah culminating in October 7th massacre. It wasn't Israel attacking its neighbors, the neighbors were attacking Israel. Israel offered Gaza and 98% of West Bank to Arafat in 1999 (name another country that conquered territory and then voluntarily gave it back to the attacker) and Arafat said no. Go back to 1973, Arab nations attack Israel. Go back to 1967, Arab countries getting ready to attack. Go back to 1948, again, armies of five Arab states attacked Israel, Israel fights them off, but Jordan takes West Bank (Judea and Samaria) and Egypt takes Gaza. The world does not give a damn about Palestinians under Jordanian or Egyptian rule until Israel captures them in 1967. Go back further - the Hebron massacre of 1929, historical attacks on Jews in their historical homeland during the millennia of Islamic conquest, including convert or die orders. You don't like Israel in Lebanon? Say thank you to PLO and Hezbollah. You don't like Israel controlling Judea and Samaria - say thank you to Jordan in 1967. You don't like war in Gaza - say thank you to Egypt as well as Hamas. You don't like Israel bombing Iran? Say thank you to Iranian support for Hezbollah and Hamas. By the way, you do realize that until 1979, Israel and Iran were buddies, and Israelis build the water system in Teheran? It wasn't the Israelis who chanted death to Iran and who started this fight in 1979, the mullahs did. +1! Even now...October 7th was completely unprovoked and innocent women and children were massacred...butchered in fact! But no one wants to think about that. 9/11 was so painful for the U.S., but buildings were hit by planes. On October 7th, men literally butchered other people. Not just shoot them or stab them...BUTCHERED THEM like serial killing psychopaths who were mentally disturbed! Even with the recent attacks by israel and the U.S....nothing like that has happened to any Iranian! Let alone women and children. Yet, this comes down to who has nukes, who doesn't...who is being treated differently than the other. Yes, Iran wasn't directly behind the October 7th attacks, but they sure as hell funded these groups over decades! Cheers!
Parsad Posted April 16 Posted April 16 1 hour ago, adesigar said: That’s a load of crap. Why should any country get to decide what another country does? What gives them the right to decide? And after what’s happened with Ukraine and Iran you can be sure that a lot of countries have received the message that a country is only safe if it has nuclear weapons. Why is it a load of crap? You think the world or any sovereign nation should be ok with every other country exploring nuclear weapons capabilities? Just like you wouldn't let your neighbor take over part of your property, you aren't going to risk your life if another sovereign nation seeks weapons of mass destruction. Load of crap would be not doing anything about it! I can guarantee you that not only the U.S. and Israel, but China, Russia, India, UK, France, Germany, etc and any other superpower does not want to see Iran get nukes. They may not make it as obvious...but they don't want to see it happen. They don't want to see any more expansion of nukes! Cheers!
73 Reds Posted April 16 Posted April 16 13 hours ago, ourkid8 said: @Parsad this is exactly the problem. You banned me for simply using the Z word— calling it hate speech (fine) — yet you allow open calls for genocide like "Ridding the World of destructive animals is a worthy endeavor" when it’s directed at Arabs/Palestinians. That’s a blatant double standard. Your pathetic attempt to twist words is just that - pathetic. You're not fooling anyone.
73 Reds Posted April 16 Posted April 16 5 hours ago, Parsad said: +1! Even now...October 7th was completely unprovoked and innocent women and children were massacred...butchered in fact! But no one wants to think about that. 9/11 was so painful for the U.S., but buildings were hit by planes. On October 7th, men literally butchered other people. Not just shoot them or stab them...BUTCHERED THEM like serial killing psychopaths who were mentally disturbed! Even with the recent attacks by israel and the U.S....nothing like that has happened to any Iranian! Let alone women and children. Yet, this comes down to who has nukes, who doesn't...who is being treated differently than the other. Yes, Iran wasn't directly behind the October 7th attacks, but they sure as hell funded these groups over decades! Cheers! Sanjeev, Iran was behind these attacks - directly and every other which way. These groups would not exist without Iran. Separating proxies from their source makes no sense and is not even worth discussing. But Oct. 7 was not the beginning; the Iranian Regime has been at war with Israel and indirectly with the US since 1979. That is what few today want to recognize. How much longer does a war need to last? Especially when it expands from the same aggressor to a war vs. nearly the entire free World? Yet most here want to chastise the US and Israel for trying to do the World a huge favor. That is what I don't get. Has anyone really considered where we would be if the current Iranian Regime got its hands on nuclear weapon. Seriously, someone please explain how and why whatever price we have to pay to prevent this is not worthwhile.
73 Reds Posted April 16 Posted April 16 13 hours ago, Parsad said: 73Reds, I agree! You need to watch how you phrase stuff as well. Be more specific...you could say "destructive regime"..."destructive leaders"...etc. The word "animals" panders to the same debasement of people as less than human. Cheers! As I've explained many times, the vast majority of Iranians are victims of oppressive, heartless, ideologically bankrtupt "animals" which still rule the country and have to go. I don't think too many folks would argue with that. Some of us personally know Iranians who were forced to flee the Regime. They would whole-heartedly agree and use far worse language to describe the present regime than "animals".
Castanza Posted April 16 Posted April 16 8 hours ago, adesigar said: That’s a load of crap. Why should any country get to decide what another country does? What gives them the right to decide? The same reason a convicted felon is no longer allowed to own a firearm ... common sense...
LC Posted April 16 Posted April 16 31 minutes ago, Castanza said: The same reason a convicted felon is no longer allowed to own a firearm ... common sense... OK but Israel is "allowed" to have nukes, but not Iran. Using your example, both are "convicted felons" in my estimation. Or would you disagree? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_war_crimes
cubsfan Posted April 16 Posted April 16 33 minutes ago, Castanza said: The same reason a convicted felon is no longer allowed to own a firearm ... common sense... That is the perfect analogy!
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