Investor20 Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/cdc-coronavirus-mainly-spreads-through-persontoperson-contact-and-does-not-spread-easily-on-contaminated-surfaces-153317029.html CDC: Coronavirus mainly spreads through person-to-person contact and 'does not spread easily' on contaminated surfaces “Based on the epidemiology, we know that the main way this virus is infecting people is from direct contact with other infected people,” Adalja says. “Contaminated surfaces play some role, but it’s likely much smaller.” It also makes sense, too, he says: “This is a respiratory virus, and respiratory viruses largely spread through breathing in infected respiratory droplets.” The person to person contact can be minimized by not hugging, kissing, hand shaking, etc. The respiratory droplets breathing can be reduced by masks, giving safe distance and just being outside. All these can be done without shutting people in their homes. In Japan, the law wont let the government mandate shelter in place. So the government there had to request people to follow guidelines, and shut down schools. But still they could not mandate kids not to play outside. People who could afford to shut their shops did. People who couldnt afford to shut down ran their businesses with safeguards. That is a much better way to treat your citizens. But above two reasons given in the article for transmission, person-person contact, droplets can be controlled while working. https://time.com/5830612/japan-coronavirus-golden-week/ Why Many Japanese People Are Ignoring Their Government’s Pleas to Stay Home During a Major Holiday Break "Legally, the state of emergency can only involve requests for compliance. Violators face no penalties. There are few incentives to close shops." You actually think us Americans were mistreated? Was not sitting in restaurants and going to large gatherings too much to bear? The entitlement I've seen from my American brethren is shocking. Not willing to give up the smallest inconveniences to prevent mass death. More deaths in 2 months than the entire Vietnam War (and closing in on WWI) but wasn't allowed to sit at an AMC and eat popcorn. My belief in my fellow Americans has been severely damaged in this order. This is not the country that put a man on the moon anymore. I am asking to follow the system that got least deaths. Japan had 6 per million deaths, while US had 287 and UK 526 (worldometer) There are two new antibody study results announced Bronx had 40% Covid exposure Stockholm had 7% exposure Because you accused me of being irresponsible, can you remind which place had lockdown and which didn't? Shelter in place mandates are very expensive lifewise (I am not talking money) https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-children-un-idUSKBN21Y2X7 U.N. warns economic downturn could kill hundreds of thousands of children in 2020 https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-deaths-suicides-drugs-alcohol-pandemic-75000/ Coronavirus pandemic may lead to 75,000 "deaths of despair" from suicide, drug and alcohol abuse, study says I believe above suicide estimate is only for US.
cubsfan Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 Good luck winning an argument with these loonies. They could care less about "collateral damage" if it doesn't show up in their models that have been so, so wrong.
LC Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 Today marked a new record high of COVID-19 cases reported in a day worldwide. This is interesting. Is this due to widespread testing or the virus spreading? Need to take measures of global testing capacity into account, but interesting nonetheless.
Investor20 Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 Good luck winning an argument with these loonies. They could care less about "collateral damage" if it doesn't show up in their models that have been so, so wrong. Its weird people fight for a system that got hundreds of deaths per million when a crowded, cold country with lot of old people managed 6 per million.
LC Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 @ Investor20: On Japan: https://www.tokyoreview.net/2020/05/time-to-give-japan-credit-for-its-covid-19-response/ Omi Shigeru, deputy head of the government panel tasked with coordinating Japan’s pandemic response, suggested a trio of reasons this week – all of which are prosaic and dully practical in nature rather than the “magic bullet” that some commentators may be hoping for. For instance, Japan has a generally good healthcare system that has managed to cope with the pandemic thus far (excluding some high-profile and serious exceptions which have highlighted problems like the lack of a centralized ambulance routing service). The country took cluster tracing and containment very seriously from a much earlier stage than western nations. Finally, despite the eye-rolling and anecdotes about office colleagues who don’t wash their hands, or train station toilets without soap, Japan had already-strong norms of hygiene and health – with widespread mask-wearing and use of hand sanitizer being reinforced by the country’s previous near-misses with epidemics like SARS. Sounds to me like (1) Japan was better prepared by having a more resilient healthcare system and (2) they took the situation much more seriously at the nascent stages. I know you'd like to copy Japan's response, but this would seem to require instituting a more socialized healthcare system, increase funding to federal disease groups (and staffing them with competent leaders), and go back in time to February to have Trump's original stance on coronavirus do a complete 180.
Investor20 Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 @ Investor20: On Japan: https://www.tokyoreview.net/2020/05/time-to-give-japan-credit-for-its-covid-19-response/ Omi Shigeru, deputy head of the government panel tasked with coordinating Japan’s pandemic response, suggested a trio of reasons this week – all of which are prosaic and dully practical in nature rather than the “magic bullet” that some commentators may be hoping for. For instance, Japan has a generally good healthcare system that has managed to cope with the pandemic thus far (excluding some high-profile and serious exceptions which have highlighted problems like the lack of a centralized ambulance routing service). The country took cluster tracing and containment very seriously from a much earlier stage than western nations. Finally, despite the eye-rolling and anecdotes about office colleagues who don’t wash their hands, or train station toilets without soap, Japan had already-strong norms of hygiene and health – with widespread mask-wearing and use of hand sanitizer being reinforced by the country’s previous near-misses with epidemics like SARS. Sounds to me like (1) Japan was better prepared by having a more resilient healthcare system and (2) they took the situation much more seriously at the nascent stages. I know you'd like to copy Japan's response, but this would seem to require instituting a more socialized healthcare system, increase funding to federal disease groups (and staffing them with competent leaders), and go back in time to February to have Trump's original stance on coronavirus do a complete 180. Japanese had very low testing. Japanese had very few hospitalizations. Japan did only 2021 tests/million. US did 42,680 tests/million. Japanese were only testing very sick to decide treatment plan upon hospitalization. So, I dont see your point about healthcare system when hospitalizations are very low in Japan. Socialized medicine is in Europe and that didnt help. Most European countries did worse than US in deaths/million for Covid. Yes Japanese took Coronavirus very seriously in January itself. Started manufacturing masks (not tests). Again, who pushed for lockdowns from the beginning. Please clarify.
LC Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 Japanese had very low testing. Japanese had very few hospitalizations. What is your point? Less testing does not mean people will get less sick. Japan did only 2021 tests/million. US did 42,680 tests/million. Japanese were only testing very sick to decide treatment plan upon hospitalization. So, I dont see your point about healthcare system when hospitalizations are very low in Japan. It's not my point, it's a quote from: Omi Shigeru, deputy head of the government panel tasked with coordinating Japan’s pandemic response. Yes Japanese took Coronavirus very seriously in January itself. Started manufacturing masks (not tests). Yes, they did. USA did not manufacture masks OR tests. Whose fault is that? Again, who pushed for lockdowns from the beginning. Please clarify. The Japanese PM closed schools on February 27, and began discussions to postpone the Olympics on Mar 3. On April 7 a state of emergency was declared, and was expanded to the entire country a week later. It was just lifted last week for half the country. So...Japan?
meiroy Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 You actually think us Americans were mistreated? Was not sitting in restaurants and going to large gatherings too much to bear? The entitlement I've seen from my American brethren is shocking. Not willing to give up the smallest inconveniences to prevent mass death. More deaths in 2 months than the entire Vietnam War (and closing in on WWI) but wasn't allowed to sit at an AMC and eat popcorn. My belief in my fellow Americans has been severely damaged in this order. This is not the country that put a man on the moon anymore. I was actually thinking about this for a while. Something to do with lack of knowledge of adversity in recent generations. I don't mean Millennials, I mean baby boom and after. Before you used to have a lot of adversity. So you were ready for it and ready to deal with it. Your children will die on a sort of regular basis - vaccines changed that (now we have anti- vaxers). Wars would happen with some frequency. Those were real wars. If you were an able bodied man you had a fair to decent chance you would go to war. Would sit in some shithole and had a good chance something bad would happen to you - bullet in the ass or worse. Now when you have a war is more theoretical "those other guys" will fight it and even them will do pretty well through it. But zero chance something bad will happen to you. The Great Depression is an interesting name. That was just the great one. There were other depressions before it not that far behind. When's the last time we had a depression? Now having to wear a mask while you shop at Costco has become a great adversity. Geez! We've become a bunch of fat, spoiled babies because a bunch of smart people worked really hard to make things easy and safe for us. Then the fat spoiled babies throw poop at the smart people because that's all they know how to do. Progress! "The Great Nap refers to the period of prosperity and relative calm that followed the conclusion of World War II in 1945 and has lasted into the new century. It has been a historical aberration in which Americans, in particular, have been able to live lives largely free of tyranny, disease, widespread suffering, or the need for communal sacrifice. Times have been good, and relatively little has been asked of us. Weinstein posits that the Great Nap has now ended and that the future holds the promise of widespread challenges and struggles not seen in generations."
Investor20 Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 Yes, they did. USA did not manufacture masks OR tests. Whose fault is that? The experts who said dont wear masks till a month back. You cannot change your guidelines and expect 350 million masks appear suddenly. Japanese, Koreans, Taiwanese etc were ready with plans to make masks and started manufacturing in January. WHO still says dont wear masks if you are healthy and not taking care of a Covid patient. The experts till last month wanted tests and ventilators. Did you already forget? And administration made arrangements to have lot of tests and ventilators. The Japanese PM closed schools on February 27, and began discussions to postpone the Olympics on Mar 3. On April 7 a state of emergency was declared, and was expanded to the entire country a week later. It was just lifted last week for half the country. The Japanese emergency is a paper tiger. It had no legal penalties attached. So people who wanted to stay home and could afford to stay home did. People who couldn't or wanted to take the risk went out to work. People might have reduced unnecessary trips but they continued to go to work. Only 18 percent of people in Japan have stopped going to work due to the novel coronavirus, the lowest level in 26 countries and territories covered in a recent survey. https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2020/04/826fe0930a43-only-18-of-japanese-stopped-going-to-work-due-to-covid-19-poll.html They left the school playgrounds open https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/04/08/national/playgrounds-open-state-emergency/#.XsZUndpR200 The government has decided to allow school playgrounds to be open during the emergency school shutdown amid the coronavirus epidemic, so children can ease stress built up from having to stay at home, it was learned Tuesday. And it is not good to argue from one data point. NY had more infection rate of people staying home than front line workers such as NYSP from antibody studies. The infection rate in Bronx is 40% while in Stockholm is 7% from antibody studies.
LC Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 The administration had states fighting each other for masks and ventilators. The administration did not recommend masks to prevent a run on short supply and allow healthcare workers access. This also contributes to the NY statistic you reference. And it is not good to argue from one data point. Correct, but you are pointing to Japan when they are clearly the outlier.
Liberty Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 It's interesting how people who initially support human garbage out of self-interest (he's cutting my taxes!) or just by default (he's the guy of my side/I don't like the other side so I guess I'll hitch to him) eventually can't help but have to defend the indefensible because of their commitment bias. It's amazing to see what people can be blind to when they decide to just support everything their tribe does. Trump is quite literally an imbecile with no morals and a malfunctioning brain who's only skills are bullshitting and bullying and they'll twist themselves into pretzels trying to defend him against all evidence. I guess he's played them well. Poor patsies. Too bad independent thinking is so rare.
cwericb Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 Aside from what some of his followers believe, Trump has serious mental problems. One does not have to do very much research to confirm this. Megalomania - obsession with the exercise of power, especially in the domination of others. Narcissism - A personality disorder characterized by an exaggerated sense of self-importance Sociopath - someone who has antisocial personality disorder (ASPD). People with ASPD can't understand others' feelings. They'll often break rules or make impulsive decisions without feeling guilty for the harm they cause. Paranoia - A personality disorder which involve odd or eccentric ways of thinking, an unrelenting mistrust and suspicion of others, even when there is no reason to be suspicious. Delusional - Delusions are the main symptom of delusional disorder. They're unshakable beliefs in something that isn't true or based on reality. Persecution complex - An acute irrational fear that other people are plotting one's downfall and that they are responsible for one's failures.
cubsfan Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 Guys - try not to have a meltdown over the President's successes.
LC Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 Guys - try not to have a meltdown over the President's successes. More than 70,000 of them, sadly. :-\
cubsfan Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 Guys - try not to have a meltdown over the President's successes. More than 70,000 of them, sadly. :-\ Thank your savior Andrew Cuomo and DeBlasio for most of them in the US! Oh, yeah - and don't forget, the spectacular job done by WHO...
Liberty Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 Guys - try not to have a meltdown over the President's successes. This is just trolling. You never say anything concrete, contradict any evidence with other evidence. You just assert things and hope nobody notices the tumbleweeds blowing throw the gaps in your logic. You basically are Beavis and/or Butthead. This impeached president will go down in history as one of the worst presidents ever. He lacks intelligence, character, skill, empathy, or even an understanding of what the US is and what makes it great, clearly. He's an anti-capitalist who's constantly trying to have the government play a bigger role in the market by picking winners and losers, trying to help certain industries and hurt others and increasing deficits and spending. He only cares about himself, and his biggest accomplishment is convincing others that the heir to hundreds of millions (a lot of it from tax fraud) who sits on a kitsch golden throne and never has shown any inclination towards regular people in his 7 decades on Earth (even his charity was a ridiculous fraud, spending on portraits of himself) is a "man of the people who loves America". His only other accomplishments are things that any republican president with control of both houses would have done (tax cuts, some regulation cuts), and almost everything else that is truly his is a failure or stupid in the first place, just like in his personal life and business life. A rapist with two dozen accusers, who has tabloid friends 'catch & kill' stories and pays hush money to a porn star because he's cheating on his third wife, trying to enact racist policies while hiding his tax returns and business interests and massive conflict of interests and debts to who know what foreign entities, as all his entourage is either in prison or fired for incompetence (often blamed for things he did), as he fires inspector generals who start digging into his dirt and puts his son-in-law in charge of everything... is now the cause of America having one of the worst responses to a pandemic around the world despite being the richest country with the most resources and months of advance-warning compared to Asia. Great success. I can't imagine how it'd be if he had been a failure in your eyes..
Liberty Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 Guys - try not to have a meltdown over the President's successes. More than 70,000 of them, sadly. :-\ Thank your savior Andrew Cuomo and DeBlasio for most of them in the US! Oh, yeah - and don't forget, the spectacular job done by WHO... Dude, we agree with you others made mistakes. We also see Trump's mistakes, but you don't. You're the one who's putting his hands over his ears and going "lalalalala" The man is president of the US and he acts like he has no power, there's nothing he could do, it's all someone else's fault, he's a victim... What position should he have to be able to do something if president isn't good enough for him and all he can do is be a crybaby about his impotence?
cubsfan Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 Guys - try not to have a meltdown over the President's successes. This is just trolling. You never say anything concrete, contradict any evidence with other evidence. You just assert things and hope nobody notices the tumbleweeds blowing throw the gaps in your logic. You basically are Beavis and/or Butthead. This impeached president will go down in history as one of the worst presidents ever. He lacks intelligence, character, skill, empathy, or even an understanding of what the US is and what makes it great, clearly. He's an anti-capitalist who's constantly trying to have the government play a bigger role in the market by picking winners and losers, trying to help certain industries and hurt others and increasing deficits and spending. He only cares about himself, and his biggest accomplishment is convincing others that the heir to hundreds of millions (a lot of it from tax fraud) who sits on a kitsch golden throne and never has shown any inclination towards regular people in his 7 decades on Earth (even his charity was a ridiculous fraud, spending on portraits of himself) is a "man of the people who loves America". His only other accomplishments are things that any republican president with control of both houses would have done (tax cuts, some regulation cuts), and almost everything else that is truly his is a failure or stupid in the first place, just like in his personal life and business life. A rapist with two dozen accusers, who has tabloid friends 'catch & kill' stories and pays hush money to a porn star because he's cheating on his third wife, trying to enact racist policies while hiding his tax returns and business interests and massive conflict of interests and debts to who know what foreign entities, as all his entourage is either in prison or fired for incompetence (often blamed for things he did), as he fires inspector generals who start digging into his dirt and puts his son-in-law in charge of everything... is now the cause of America having one of the worst responses to a pandemic around the world despite being the richest country with the most resources and months of advance-warning compared to Asia. Great success. I can't imagine how it'd be if he had been a failure in your eyes.. Thanks for more of your bloviating bullshit Liberty - keep going from one hoax to the next - just makes you look stupid.
Liberty Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 Thanks for more of your bloviating bullshit Liberty - keep going from one hoax to the next - just makes you look stupid. Coming from you, it's the greatest compliment. If you agreed with me, I'd know there's something seriously wrong and I'd get a MRI.
cubsfan Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 The man is president of the US and he acts like he has no power, there's nothing he could do, it's all someone else's fault, he's a victim... You just can't make up your mind, can you now Liberty - one day Trump is a dictator, one day he is powerless - keep the stupidity coming bro...
Liberty Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 The man is president of the US and he acts like he has no power, there's nothing he could do, it's all someone else's fault, he's a victim... You just can't make up your mind, can you now Liberty - one day Trump is a dictator, one day he is powerless - keep the stupidity coming bro... That's you attempting being clever, right? I think it'd play really well on the primary school yard. The man clearly has authoritarian tendencies (I never said dictator, but clearly he wishes he was), and he's making a lot of stupid and incompetent decisions. At the same time, he plays the victim and keeps blaming everybody else as if he was powerless and not actually president of the US. It's Obama's fault, it's China's fault, it's the governor's fault, it's the WHO's fault, it's the democrats' fault, it's the CDC's fault, the media's fault, nobody could've done anything (while clearly others have), etc. There, both things can be true at the same time. I know it's a complex thought for you, but I'm sure others get it.
cubsfan Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 The man is president of the US and he acts like he has no power, there's nothing he could do, it's all someone else's fault, he's a victim... You just can't make up your mind, can you now Liberty - one day Trump is a dictator, one day he is powerless - keep the stupidity coming bro... That's you attempting being clever, right? I think it'd play really well on the primary school yard. The man clearly has authoritarian tendencies (I never said dictator, but clearly he wishes he was), and he's making a lot of stupid and incompetent decisions. At the same time, he plays the victim and keeps blaming everybody else as if he was powerless and not actually president of the US. It's Obama's fault, it's China's fault, it's the governor's fault, it's the WHO's fault, it's the democrats' fault, it's the CDC's fault, the media's fault, nobody could've done anything (while clearly others have), etc. There, both things can be true at the same time. I know it's a complex thought for you, but I'm sure others get it. Sure, Liberty, sure - I know, I know - it's TRUMP'S fault - that's your answer to everything - we ALL appreciate your armchair psychoanalysis. Now back to your meltdown.
Investor20 Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 The administration had states fighting each other for masks and ventilators. The administration did not recommend masks to prevent a run on short supply and allow healthcare workers access. This also contributes to the NY statistic you reference. And it is not good to argue from one data point. Correct, but you are pointing to Japan when they are clearly the outlier. Japan is not an outlier. Taiwan, Korea, Hongkong also used same methods and had low deaths/million. I picked Japan only to be fair, a large population that is old, crowded, cold country with subways and public transportation. And I was giving additional information for support which you conveniently removed. NY had more infection rate of people staying home than front line workers such as NYSP from antibody studies. The infection rate in Bronx is 40% while in Stockholm is 7% from antibody studies.
LC Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 S Korea: Today, south korea’s covid-19 response strategy sits atop three pillars: fast and free testing, expansive tracing technology, and mandatory isolation of the most severe cases. Each pillar was shaped by the epidemics that preceded the 2019 novel coronavirus. ... Zero-Tolerance Isolation To separate the sick from the healthy—and the somewhat sick from the very sick—South Korea’s patients are divided into several groups. The elderly and those with serious illnesses go straight to hospitals. Moderately sick people are sent to isolation dorms, where they’re monitored. And the asymptomatic “contacts” of recently diagnosed cases are asked to self-quarantine at home and use separate bathrooms, dishes, and towels from their cohabitants. Health-service officials check in twice daily to monitor their symptoms. International arrivals are also subject to isolation rules. South Korea requires that foreign arrivals self-isolate for two weeks. Koreans arriving from overseas are required to download an app that registers their symptoms in the days after their arrival. By early April, South Korea reported that more than 170,000 inbound travelers had downloaded the app, and nearly 9,000 of them had reported symptoms requiring hospitalization or mandatory quarantine. (Individuals who violate self-isolation rules face steep fines or, for foreigners, immediate deportation.) If you want to open up the economy then by all means provide masks weekly to everyone in the US, provide fast and free testing, take our cell phones and track our every move to inform tracing, provide free healthcare to those infected...i.e. perform ALL the steps that these Asian countries took, not just the ones that appeal to you.
cwericb Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 "This is just trolling. You never say anything concrete, contradict any evidence with other evidence. You just assert things and hope nobody notices the tumbleweeds blowing throw the gaps in your logic." Nailed it. Describes Cubsfan to a "T" Now Cubs, if you are so adamant that Trump doesn't have mental issues go back to my last post where I outlined some of his issues and explain where each issue I mentioned doesn't apply. In other words, put up or shut up. "Aside from what some of his followers believe, Trump has serious mental problems. One does not have to do very much research to confirm this. Megalomania - obsession with the exercise of power, especially in the domination of others. Narcissism - A personality disorder characterized by an exaggerated sense of self-importance Sociopath - someone who has antisocial personality disorder (ASPD). People with ASPD can't understand others' feelings. They'll often break rules or make impulsive decisions without feeling guilty for the harm they cause. Paranoia - A personality disorder which involve odd or eccentric ways of thinking, an unrelenting mistrust and suspicion of others, even when there is no reason to be suspicious. Delusional - Delusions are the main symptom of delusional disorder. They're unshakable beliefs in something that isn't true or based on reality. Persecution complex - An acute irrational fear that other people are plotting one's downfall and that they are responsible for one's failures."
Recommended Posts