If American - which presidential candidate will you vote for? (Nov Edition) If

[Liberty]

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/07/campaign-manager-on-trump-charity-donations-ive-seen-him-write-checks.html

 

Apparently Trump running for president is a huge sacrifice for him, even a kind of charitable donation, according to the man's campaign manager.

 

Conway told CNBC, however, that she has personally seen Trump write donations to charity.

"It is not true," she said of those claims that Trump is lying about his charitable giving. "I'm rebutting it right now, it's not fair and it's not true."

 

"He's a very generous man, I've seen him write checks, I've been there when he's writing checks to people," she added.

 

In fact, Conway said, Trump's run for the presidency is an example of his penchant for civic sacrifice.

 

"And the fact is that the idea that somebody who has made such a tremendous sacrifice to run for president — basically a huge sacrifice: didn't need the money, didn't need the fame, didn't need the power, didn't need the status — and you've got a lot of deals that didn't get done, I'm sure, in the Trump Corporation because the guy at the top is running for president," she said.

 

"Those are tremendous sacrifices, he's been incredibly generous, he doesn't talk about it, but he's been able to connect people with resources and opportunity and to help them get a hand up over time, and I think it's incredibly important that people look at that."

 

Strange that charities aren't finding these checks. Maybe he writes them and keeps them in a drawer somewhere...

 

::)

[LC]

The real question you need to ask can you deal with a guy who lets you know upfront what his initial point is and in the end it will be negotiated or do you want someone who tell you what you want to hear and after the deal is done you find out that there is something in there if you knew you would not make the deal.  In terms of all the ethics and other discussions I think they both are pretty bad each in there own way that is why there are so many undecided close to 13% going into election day.  They both are bullies.  One is explicit about it & the other is more refined.  I would rather deal with the explicit one versus dealing with more refined deceiver.

 

Packer

I respect that. That's how I felt about Anthony Weiner actually when I first heard of the sexting, but then it just got worse and worse.

 

The flip side is the "explicit" deceiver will continue to make the same mistakes over and over. The "refined" deceiver will at least stop doing so in order to hide their future deceit.

 

To make it more clear: Trump will continue doing the same stupid shit he has done in the past. At least now that the world has shined a light on Hillary's fuck-ups, she'll probably stop doing so. I.e. won't be using a private email server, obviously selling out to foreign interests, etc. She'll still do shady shit, but it will have to be more calculated and therefore she'll have to compromise more.

[Guest JoelS]

This discussion on Trump reminds me of the guy who gets caught by his wife in bed with another woman, to which the husband cries "are you gonna believe what you see, or what I tell you!".

 

All the evidence is there. Trump may not be Hitler reincarnated but he sure has persuaded people with more than a few "Big Lies"... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie

[ccplz]

Those who compare Trump to Hitler & Mussolini really do not know history & are playing off a superficial knowledge of it.  Trump is more akin to those who have a large mouth but not much to back it up with.  Hitler & Mussolini had bands of thugs around them that would suppress the opposition.  I see no evidence of this other than protesters paid by others to cause trouble.  Also both men were great at inciting others to do there bullying for them a trait Hillary is better at the Trump.  The other major difference is Trump changes his positions to the mainstream over time.  Immigration is an example.  Going from mass deportation to deporting the criminals, securing the border then dealing with amnesty.  Another characteristic of both men is they did the worst is secret and covered up the truth with lies.  Now this is Hillary's specialty and different than Turmp who lets the good and the bad all hang out there.

 

Packer 

 

 

Does it have to identical to movements of the past to call it what it is? Do we need have to wait for the Trump Shirts before we say something?

 

Is it so far fetched that we may get Trump goons in the future? He's already recruiting poll watchers to go to "certain areas". The usual creepy characters seem to have answered the call.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/10/27/militia-group-calls-on-members-to-patrol-polls-on-election-day/

 

I think we need to wait for evidence.  At this point Trump has a loud mouth with no goons.  Hillary has more goons at her disposal that she has never dismissed like the Black Panthers who are poll watchers from the her side & she is so secretive versus the public Trump you would not know until it is too late, like Hitler and Mussolini.  So you have the loud mouth you can see coming & in the end is a pragmatist in the end versus the stealthy person playing pay for play & thinking she is above the law.  Which would you choose?

 

BTW using the same type of login with Clinton she would be looting the government for her personal gain.

 

Packer

 

Hey, let's ignore all of this:

 

"There’s a group that is demonized (immigrants and Muslims), there are draconian policies to deal with the “problem” group (the wall, the database, the ID cards, surveillance, closing mosques), the politicians who disagree are accused of ignoring reality, and ordinary folks who disagree are condemned as troublemakers or enemy sympathizers who ought to be “roughed up”."

 

I don't hear any of this rhetoric from the Democratic side.

 

Also no response to this from the Trump side:

 

"If you needed open-heart surgery and had to pick between a doctor with a malpractice suit filed against them or the manager of a Wendy’s, which person would you choose to perform that surgery?"

 

I guess there isn't really much to say heh?

 

[Packer16]

I heard a great add-on to the Trump wall analogy that is we will build a wall with a door to let in those we want to let in.  This BTW is what the rest of the world does (only lets in who they want in a controlled fashion vs. a free for all).  As you have noticed the solutions have evolved to more practical solutions over time and have gotten folks involved versus the made in Washington/think tank solutions foisted upon folks by Clinton et al.  You are right about the Dems they think there enemies are the 50% of US citizens that are deplorable for not thinking like them.

 

As to the next President being a brain surgeon, I would rather have one who knows how put together a great team versus one who knows how put together a corrupt team whose focus is more CYA than doing what is right.  Some of the smartest presidents, Carter for example, have been some of the worst because they thought they knew what to do.  Just my 2c.

 

Packer

[Guest JoelS]

An interesting FT opinion piece on comparisons with the Fascism of the 1930's: https://www.ft.com/content/599fbbfc-a412-11e6-8898-79a99e2a4de6

 

 

[Liberty]

China

[Liberty]

 

So he just made up an award and said he won it. In normal time this could be a big scandal, but this year it doesn't register...

[RichardGibbons]

The flip side is the "explicit" deceiver will continue to make the same mistakes over and over. The "refined" deceiver will at least stop doing so in order to hide their future deceit.

 

To make it more clear: Trump will continue doing the same stupid shit he has done in the past. At least now that the world has shined a light on Hillary's fuck-ups, she'll probably stop doing so. I.e. won't be using a private email server, obviously selling out to foreign interests, etc. She'll still do shady shit, but it will have to be more calculated and therefore she'll have to compromise more.

 

One really interesting thing about this election is that there's really good evidence that Trump lies about pretty well everything, sexually assaults people, scams workers, discriminates based on gender, race, and disability, insults war heroes, says he loves war, thinks nukes are a good way to solve problems, encourages war crimes, encourages the beating of up journalists and anyone who disagrees with him, and wants to start wars based on minor slights.

 

The other candidate has been under constant examination for twenty-five years, with the right looking for any possible way to discredit her. In all that time, the best thing they could come up with was that she sent emails from a private server, just like many of the high-ranking Republicans have done. She hasn't been convicted of anything in all that time.

 

The conclusion? HRC is corrupt but incredibly good at hiding it, and has done so successfully because the media is kind to her, the justice system is completely corrupt, and everyone in power is following her lead.  Therefore, Trump is the better candidate.

 

Not a thought is spared on the idea that HRC is a human, better than many, who has dedicated much of her life to public service, and, though she's messed up a couple times, hasn't messed up any more than any other human would be likely to do so in her position.

 

Instead, of taking a slightly flawed human who tries, they'll vote for the known maniac.  (And really, anyone who actually believe HRC is the great Satan must be really impressed with her abilities, getting every powerful person in the nation to buckle under her fist, and keeping them in line for 25 years.  Like, really? Really?)

 

To me, it shows the true power ideology combined with Fox's 25 year propaganda campaign, repeating the same message every day for decades. It's pretty amazing, really.

 

 

[valcont]

To me, it shows the true power ideology combined with Fox's 25 year propaganda campaign, repeating the same message every day for decades. It's pretty amazing, really.

 

What I am surprised is how little it would take to move the needle to the other side. Imagine if we just had another meltdown similar to 2008. I can guarantee that Trump would have won handily no matter how racist,misogynist, dangerous tyrant he would sound. How are we any different than the authoritarian countries that we lecture every day about the wonders of democracy and open society ? They just happen to have shitty economy and bad neighbors.Doesn't make China look so bad does it when they clamp down on the free media? How about Venezuela or Iran who blame their neighbors for their problems? Or Russia who employs the draconian measure to save the republic? Or Israel who we lecture how to treat the muslims.

 

 

[rb]

To me, it shows the true power ideology combined with Fox's 25 year propaganda campaign, repeating the same message every day for decades. It's pretty amazing, really.

 

What I am surprised is how little it would take to move the needle to the other side. Imagine if we just had another meltdown similar to 2008. I can guarantee that Trump would have won handily no matter how racist,misogynist, dangerous tyrant he would sound. How are we any different than the authoritarian countries that we lecture every day about the wonders of democracy and open society ? They just happen to have shitty economy and bad neighbors.Doesn't make China look so bad does it when they clamp down on the free media? How about Venezuela or Iran who blame their neighbors for their problems? Or Russia who employs the draconian measure to save the republic? Or Israel who we lecture how to treat the muslims.

This close race is what scares the hell out of me. I wore why I believe this is fascism. The thing is that compared to past fascists Trump is kind of incompetent and kind of an idiot. He ranks pretty low on the scale. What if we got a more competent one. Or what if he didn't pick on Mexicans but instead picked on the Chinese or something. He may very well have closed that small gap.

 

We got luck this time (hopefully. don't count chickens and jinx it). Hopefully tomorrow is a wake up call and after the hangover clears America realizes it had a close call, does some serious introspection and cleans up its act. I won't hold my breath though.

[rb]

As to the next President being a brain surgeon, I would rather have one who knows how put together a great team versus one who knows how put together a corrupt team whose focus is more CYA than doing what is right.  Some of the smartest presidents, Carter for example, have been some of the worst because they thought they knew what to do.  Just my 2c.

 

Packer

This is frigging hilarious.

 

Trump's view on foreign policy advisors:

I'm speaking with myself, number one, because I have a very good brain. I speak to a lot of people, but my primary consultant is myself, and I have a good instinct for this stuff.

 

As for Trump building good teams? In one election first he brings in the Corey Lewandowski JV team. Then he fires JV team. Then he bring the Russian stooge Paul Manafort team. Then he fires the Russian stooge team. Then he brings in the despicable team: Kellyanne Conway (of Todd Akin legitimate rape fame among other creeps) and Steve Bannon (of Breitbart fame). Special team mention for his chosen running mate: Mike Pence. Pence thinks you can pray away the gay and as a governor he almost triggered an HIV epidemic in his state. It's also worth noting that he has recruitment problems because loads of serious professional republicans refused to work with/for him and/or publicly denounced him.

 

Two of the most prominent and public members of the Trump team are Rudy Juliani who seems to have a problem identifying top, bottom, middle and side and Chris Christie. Who I'm hearing has some problems with a bridge? Maybe Christie for Secretary of Transportation?

 

If Trump is someone who builds great teams and this is how great teams look how do bad teams look like?

[Tim Eriksen]

To me, it shows the true power ideology combined with Fox's 25 year propaganda campaign, repeating the same message every day for decades. It's pretty amazing, really.

 

What I am surprised is how little it would take to move the needle to the other side. Imagine if we just had another meltdown similar to 2008. I can guarantee that Trump would have won handily no matter how racist,misogynist, dangerous tyrant he would sound. How are we any different than the authoritarian countries that we lecture every day about the wonders of democracy and open society ? They just happen to have shitty economy and bad neighbors.Doesn't make China look so bad does it when they clamp down on the free media? How about Venezuela or Iran who blame their neighbors for their problems? Or Russia who employs the draconian measure to save the republic? Or Israel who we lecture how to treat the muslims.

This close race is what scares the hell out of me. I wore why I believe this is fascism. The thing is that compared to past fascists Trump is kind of incompetent and kind of an idiot. He ranks pretty low on the scale. What if we got a more competent one. Or what if he didn't pick on Mexicans but instead picked on the Chinese or something. He may very well have closed that small gap.

 

We got luck this time (hopefully. don't count chickens and jinx it). Hopefully tomorrow is a wake up call and after the hangover clears America realizes it had a close call, does some serious introspection and cleans up its act. I won't hold my breath though.

 

The reason it is close race is because of how flawed Clinton is.  A decent candidate would destroy Trump.  That so many on this board cannot see that is what amazes me.  Instead of looking at their candidate and/or her policies they call the other side deplorables, and draw comparisons to Nazi Germany.  It is not deplorable to want to protect life, freedoms of speech and religion, second amendment rights, have lower taxes, or want to control our borders.  Don't get me wrong, Trump sucks.  He is a pig.  Just as any decent Democrat should easily beat Trump, any decent Republican would be comfortably ahead of Clinton.  Like it or not they are our only two real choices.   

 

[rb]

 

The reason it is close race is because of how flawed Clinton is.  A decent candidate would destroy Trump.  That so many on this board cannot see that is what amazes me.  Instead of looking at their candidate and/or her policies they call the other side deplorables, and draw comparisons to Nazi Germany.  It is not deplorable to want to protect life, freedoms of speech and religion, second amendment rights, have lower taxes, or want to control our borders.  Don't get me wrong, Trump sucks.  He is a pig.  Just as any decent Democrat should easily beat Trump, any decent Republican would be comfortably ahead of Clinton.  Like it or not they are our only two real choices. 

 

Tim, we're not really gonna engage on the abortion topic cause that's not gonna lead anywhere good.

 

That argument that Hillary is such a flawed candidate and anyone else would win bigly is such BS. Hillary is sitting on a 4-5% polling lead right now. One of the polls tested a generic Obama against trump and it came out that he would win by 12. That's Obama that is having a Regan like approval rating. But it's also an Obama that's not running so he didn't take electoral fire for for 18 months. If he were to actually run he'll win maybe by 6 and that would be mainly because of higher black turnout. So give me a break with the flawed candidate.

 

As for the deplorable part, I think H said that about half of Trump supporters fall into a basket, then she revised it to maybe less than that. The fact is that there is a good chunk of deplorables supporting Trump: the alt-right (hell one of the leaders of the alt-right is his campaign "CEO"), the KKK, the guy yelling Jew-S-A. That's a pretty deplorable bunch. Top it off with Trump supporters self identifying as deplorables and being proud. Then you have the family values people standing firmly behind Trump. While I know a lot of them and know that they're not depolable, they're still committing a pretty deplorable act. Let's call it hypocritical instead.

 

As for freedom of speech. Trump is the one banning media outlets, talking about opening up libel laws, raving about dishonest media, and directing ire toward the media at his rallies. Secret service never had to escorts journalists out of Clinton rallies for their protection. They had to do that at Trump rallies.

 

As for freedom of religion. Clinton never threatened anyone's freedom of religion. Trump is the one who talked about closing places of worship, surveillance of places of worship, and banning people belonging to a religion from entering the US.

 

On taxes, Trump's people just say lower taxes. They don't care where they go or what they do they just want lower taxes. There can be a discussion here but they're not engaging on it at least not honestly. There are two dimensions. One around services - this is more mathematical. This is an efficiency argument. My view is there are some services that can be more efficiently delivered by the private sector and should be shifted. Also there are some services that are more efficiently  delivered by the public sector and should be shifted.

 

The other dimension is welfare - this is more personal and subjective. We live in an unequal society. Because of this I am a well off individual. Because of this others are not. Then I sit back and look at what kind of society I want to live in. For example, I do not want to live in one where people are in danger of disease and death because they are poorer than i am. To live in that kind of a society I am willing to pay more. What's amazing to me is that people that are so concerned with life do not share my view. They're so concerned with the 9 months between ejaculate and birth. After that they're just concerned with low taxes.

 

In the US there's still one man, one vote. Everyone can vote for anyone they want. You want to vote for Trump, it's your right. Go ahead and do that, I respect that. But please spare me the bullshit. That I do not respect. Or maybe come up with some better one. I may be able to respect that.

[wachtwoord]

To me, it shows the true power ideology combined with Fox's 25 year propaganda campaign, repeating the same message every day for decades. It's pretty amazing, really.

 

What I am surprised is how little it would take to move the needle to the other side. Imagine if we just had another meltdown similar to 2008. I can guarantee that Trump would have won handily no matter how racist,misogynist, dangerous tyrant he would sound. How are we any different than the authoritarian countries that we lecture every day about the wonders of democracy and open society ? They just happen to have shitty economy and bad neighbors.Doesn't make China look so bad does it when they clamp down on the free media? How about Venezuela or Iran who blame their neighbors for their problems? Or Russia who employs the draconian measure to save the republic? Or Israel who we lecture how to treat the muslims.

This close race is what scares the hell out of me. I wore why I believe this is fascism. The thing is that compared to past fascists Trump is kind of incompetent and kind of an idiot. He ranks pretty low on the scale. What if we got a more competent one. Or what if he didn't pick on Mexicans but instead picked on the Chinese or something. He may very well have closed that small gap.

 

We got luck this time (hopefully. don't count chickens and jinx it). Hopefully tomorrow is a wake up call and after the hangover clears America realizes it had a close call, does some serious introspection and cleans up its act. I won't hold my breath though.

 

Me too but the other way around. I would vote for a randomly drawn individual over Hillary all day long as she's evil. The old Buffet quote applies:

 

“Somebody once said that in looking for people to hire , you look for three qualities: integrity, intelligence, and energy . And if you don’t have the first, the other two will kill you. You think about it; it’s true. If you hire somebody without [integrity], you really want them to be dumb and lazy.” –Warren Buffett

 

I believe Clinton is likely to wage many wars while Trump will just be a protectionist bigot.

 

Oh and if you don't lower taxes soon you will go the way of Europe. Everyone will turn lazy. It wil become part of the culture. But we have effective tax rates considerably north of yours. It's one of the main reasons I will not live here for many years to come. I don't like people leeching of me.

[petec]

Clinton strikes me as a fairly standard politician: she's told some lies, she's made some dubious money, she's made some bad decisions, she's spun some half truths, she has a lifetime of service and experience.

 

Trump is an out and out bastard.

 

As a matter of theory, I'd trust a warmonger over a rapist any day.  That might sound odd, but to go to war with someone on the other side of the globe in the name of a good cause requires far less intrinsic evil, far less hate, and a far less twisted personality than deliberately harming someone right in front of you - even if that war turns out to be a disaster.

 

Now, Trump's not a rapist.  But there is a mountain of evidence that he is a vindictive liar who gets a kick out of imposing himself on other people.  So it's not a huge leap of faith to think he might have the character of a rapist (especially since his ex-wife swore under oath that he raped her).

 

Hillary is not perfect but this is the simplest election decision I have ever seen.

 

I'm also intrigued to know how many of the people who castigate Hillary for being a warmonger would say the same of G. W. Bush.

[wachtwoord]

Clinton strikes me as a fairly standard politician: she's told some lies, she's made some dubious money, she's made some bad decisions, she's spun some half truths, she has a lifetime of service and experience.

 

Started some wars ...

 

And yes, the advantage of Trump he's not a standard politician. Standard politicians are crap and corrupt. Hillary is a prime example.

[petec]

If I thought Trump was competent and honest, I'd agree entirely. 

 

Edit: if I thought Trump was competent OR honest, I'd agree entirely.  But he can't even get over that hurdle.

[Packer16]

As to team builders I would rather have a guy that can change folks when appropriate then one who holds unto the same team no matter what, that is the cause of corruption.  The retention of Debbie Wasserman Schultz is an example.  Both of these folks have paranoid personalities but if the you have to fall back on the false Nazi analogy then you are on a lower level than Trump with his conspiracy theories.  Clinton had the opportunity to keep this on the issues but she chose to get in the gutter with Trump on conspiracy theories and innuendos but maybe that is her personality.  I just think that whoever wins is going to have a terrible time governing & has a high probability of impeachment given their paranoia.  This may be a Pyrrhic victory for the winner here.

 

This is a great board because like most conversations amongst friends the conversation is to try to understand the others point of view not to bash someone because they have a different point of view.  Frank Luntz had a great piece on 60 minutes about how since he started in the 1990s the lack of wanting to understand the other side has declined.  He gave the example with Bush v Gore, in post election focus groups folks would wait until the person was done speaking versus speaking over folks which is quite common in focus groups today.  I think we are different.  If we come to our conversation with an attitude of discovery we may actual learn something. I know I have.

 

Packer

[cwericb]

Yes, the value of this board is the reasonable exchange of differing viewpoints.

 

That said, I still cannot understand how a large percentage of American voters will vote for a man like Trump. It doesn’t matter how bad you think of Hillary, Trump is on a whole different scale.

 

We have seen how he has acted during his campaign where candidates are on their best behavior. If that’s the best he can do, can you imagine what he would be like if he actually had the power of a President?

[wachtwoord]

This is an election where a surprising low amount of people like their candidate.

 

People in favor of Trump think Clinton is one of the most terrible things ever (my camp)

People in favor of Clinton think Trump is one of the most terrible things ever

 

At least we can all agree that both independent candidates are better then both Trump and Hilary?

[ccplz]

To me, it shows the true power ideology combined with Fox's 25 year propaganda campaign, repeating the same message every day for decades. It's pretty amazing, really.

 

What I am surprised is how little it would take to move the needle to the other side. Imagine if we just had another meltdown similar to 2008. I can guarantee that Trump would have won handily no matter how racist,misogynist, dangerous tyrant he would sound. How are we any different than the authoritarian countries that we lecture every day about the wonders of democracy and open society ? They just happen to have shitty economy and bad neighbors.Doesn't make China look so bad does it when they clamp down on the free media? How about Venezuela or Iran who blame their neighbors for their problems? Or Russia who employs the draconian measure to save the republic? Or Israel who we lecture how to treat the muslims.

This close race is what scares the hell out of me. I wore why I believe this is fascism. The thing is that compared to past fascists Trump is kind of incompetent and kind of an idiot. He ranks pretty low on the scale. What if we got a more competent one. Or what if he didn't pick on Mexicans but instead picked on the Chinese or something. He may very well have closed that small gap.

 

We got luck this time (hopefully. don't count chickens and jinx it). Hopefully tomorrow is a wake up call and after the hangover clears America realizes it had a close call, does some serious introspection and cleans up its act. I won't hold my breath though.

 

Me too but the other way around. I would vote for a randomly drawn individual over Hillary all day long as she's evil. The old Buffet quote applies:

 

“Somebody once said that in looking for people to hire , you look for three qualities: integrity, intelligence, and energy . And if you don’t have the first, the other two will kill you. You think about it; it’s true. If you hire somebody without [integrity], you really want them to be dumb and lazy.” –Warren Buffett

 

I believe Clinton is likely to wage many wars while Trump will just be a protectionist bigot.

 

Oh and if you don't lower taxes soon you will go the way of Europe. Everyone will turn lazy. It wil become part of the culture. But we have effective tax rates considerably north of yours. It's one of the main reasons I will not live here for many years to come. I don't like people leeching of me.

 

Buffett is endorsing Hillary.

[vox]

If Hillary Clinton changes her mind on a position - like she has on TPP or gay marriage, she is cast as a "refined deceiver."

If she does not change her mind on the issues, she is cast as an ideologue who is 'not open to negotiations.'

 

If Hillary Clinton does not force out Debbie Wasserman Schultz, she is 'perpetuating corruption.'

If she does force out Schultz, she would be cast as throwing others under the bus for her own misbehavior.

[Tim Eriksen]

 

The reason it is close race is because of how flawed Clinton is.  A decent candidate would destroy Trump.  That so many on this board cannot see that is what amazes me.  Instead of looking at their candidate and/or her policies they call the other side deplorables, and draw comparisons to Nazi Germany.  It is not deplorable to want to protect life, freedoms of speech and religion, second amendment rights, have lower taxes, or want to control our borders.  Don't get me wrong, Trump sucks.  He is a pig.  Just as any decent Democrat should easily beat Trump, any decent Republican would be comfortably ahead of Clinton.  Like it or not they are our only two real choices. 

 

Tim, we're not really gonna engage on the abortion topic cause that's not gonna lead anywhere good.

 

That argument that Hillary is such a flawed candidate and anyone else would win bigly is such BS. Hillary is sitting on a 4-5% polling lead right now. One of the polls tested a generic Obama against trump and it came out that he would win by 12. That's Obama that is having a Regan like approval rating. But it's also an Obama that's not running so he didn't take electoral fire for for 18 months. If he were to actually run he'll win maybe by 6 and that would be mainly because of higher black turnout. So give me a break with the flawed candidate.

 

As for the deplorable part, I think H said that about half of Trump supporters fall into a basket, then she revised it to maybe less than that. The fact is that there is a good chunk of deplorables supporting Trump: the alt-right (hell one of the leaders of the alt-right is his campaign "CEO"), the KKK, the guy yelling Jew-S-A. That's a pretty deplorable bunch. Top it off with Trump supporters self identifying as deplorables and being proud. Then you have the family values people standing firmly behind Trump. While I know a lot of them and know that they're not depolable, they're still committing a pretty deplorable act. Let's call it hypocritical instead.

 

As for freedom of speech. Trump is the one banning media outlets, talking about opening up libel laws, raving about dishonest media, and directing ire toward the media at his rallies. Secret service never had to escorts journalists out of Clinton rallies for their protection. They had to do that at Trump rallies.

 

As for freedom of religion. Clinton never threatened anyone's freedom of religion. Trump is the one who talked about closing places of worship, surveillance of places of worship, and banning people belonging to a religion from entering the US.

 

On taxes, Trump's people just say lower taxes. They don't care where they go or what they do they just want lower taxes. There can be a discussion here but they're not engaging on it at least not honestly. There are two dimensions. One around services - this is more mathematical. This is an efficiency argument. My view is there are some services that can be more efficiently delivered by the private sector and should be shifted. Also there are some services that are more efficiently  delivered by the public sector and should be shifted.

 

The other dimension is welfare - this is more personal and subjective. We live in an unequal society. Because of this I am a well off individual. Because of this others are not. Then I sit back and look at what kind of society I want to live in. For example, I do not want to live in one where people are in danger of disease and death because they are poorer than i am. To live in that kind of a society I am willing to pay more. What's amazing to me is that people that are so concerned with life do not share my view. They're so concerned with the 9 months between ejaculate and birth. After that they're just concerned with low taxes.

 

In the US there's still one man, one vote. Everyone can vote for anyone they want. You want to vote for Trump, it's your right. Go ahead and do that, I respect that. But please spare me the bullshit. That I do not respect. Or maybe come up with some better one. I may be able to respect that.

 

Right.  Let's not discuss abortion cause that never gets anywhere good (sarcasm).  You try to make a moral argument on help later in life but refuse to engage in moral arguments while in the womb.  Don't misunderstand, I am NOT trying to switch the discussion to the killing of over a million people each year.  My only point was you fail to see how that is a meaningful issue to a large chunk of the electorate.  You fail to see that Hillary's position is extreme (any time for any reason).   

 

The point I was making you recognize but then irrationally dismiss.  You know Obama would be up big in a hypothetical matchup (12 points), but then assume that it would not really be the case in a real matchup (you arbitrarily make it 6),  You are ignoring the facts and spinning them to defend a flawed candidate. That was my point and you proved it.  The only bullshit is what you are telling yourself.  The overwhelming majority of the country sees the flaws in both candidates and you don't.  You are just like the person who thinks Trump is good and Hillary bad, you just have it reversed.  It is pure partisanship.  It is pure self deception.  That was my only point.  You proved it but you still don't see it. 

 

I don't want to vote for Trump.  I do prefer the Republican platform on social and economic issues over the Democratic platform.  That is how I voted.   

 

 

[rkbabang]

Just thought I'd point out that "Just shoot me. :(" is now in second place!