Brand Damage - Permanent

[Uccmal]

My wife had purchased some stuff for the house the other day and I noticed a Sunbeam product.

 

This immediately made me think - Why would she buy a Sunbeam - That's the company that hired that prick "chainsaw" Al Dunlap to fire everyone indiscriminately, and fix operations.  I dont want anything from a company like that.  It occurred to me that Sunbeam did near permanent damage to its brand in a very short period of time in the mid 1990s at least where my mind share was concerned.

 

I then started thinking about others.  Firestone closed a plant in my hometown of Hamilton.  That I have no problem with - business is business.  They then proceeded to "steal" 14 million dollars of equipment financed a year earlier by the Ontario Gov't to keep the plant in Canada.  To this day I wont buy Firestone products and I suspect very few in that area of southern Ontario would buy their tires despite the fact they have been under other ownership in the last 20 years. 

 

I have similar feelings about Sears Canada, and Sears Home.  The damage done to the company by ESL was so severe as to make the shopping experience torturous.  My whole family boycotts Sears and Sears Home due to being screwed by the company's credit and gift card departments. 

 

I only shop at Canadian Tire when it is something I cant get elsewhere.... Just decades of customer neglect and staff stupidity. 

 

These are examples of near- permanent brand damage and a turnaround in peoples mindshare is near impossible.  Explains why K-mart sued the producers of Rainman. 

 

Anyone else have any examples, I have forgot or dont know about?

[Jurgis]

Quite a few examples are semi-monopolies that you can't escape unfortunately.

 

I told myself that I will never get Verizon after having DSL from the nightmare street. I still don't, but that limits my choices to Comcast (which most people hate - I had OK experience with it) and RCN (which I currently have and fingers crossed, good so far). Other people are not so lucky and have to stay with semi monopoly even though it sucks.

 

Some (most?) examples are also very personal. I've had friends who will never use Chase (bad CC experience), Bank of America (bad banking experience), etc. But these are still huge companies that many people use. I use them too and have not had any problems...

 

Wholesale brand implosions are more rare I guess...

[rb]

I guess everyone has a couple of those. I don't know if they're exactly wholesale brand implosions but they're definitely loosing customers. A brand is basically an implied promise of what the product will be. If that promise is broken then the customer is lost.

 

To add an example take BMW. Once you pass 70,000 km (45,000 miles for my American friends) everything on the car starts to break down and leak. The car is very well engineered and drives beautifully so it looks like they have the engineering know how to not make a car leak or to use better parts. They just don't. So it's engineered for everything to go once you hit 70k.

 

On top of the hassle of and expense of fixing everything - some of which cannot be reasonably done - I have the extra problem where I drive a $100,000 car but I can't park it on any of my friends or clients driveways because I am afraid that I an going to stain the drive. (I've heard that Audi and Mercedes are the same). To me the brand and the price tag imply a promise that I shouldn't have to deal with things like that. So given their broken promise I guess my next car is a Lexus.

 

I should probably note that the implied promise is different for everyone. So the guy that buys a brand new BMW every year is probably very satisfied and feels that the brand delivered all I promised.

[rkbabang]

K-Mart suspended sales of all guns and ammunition on September 11, 2001 a matter of hours after the country had been attacked.  I couldn't help ask the question "Who's side are they on exactly?"  Even though there was still a K-Mart in the town I lived in back then, neither I nor my wife have stepped foot in a K-Mart since and never will.  I have a hard time even thinking about shopping at Sears, simply because they own K-Mart. Luckily there is no good reason to buy anything from Sears either.

[merkhet]

I feel like it's hard to extrapolate these things from anecdotal evidence. I mean, most people haven't even heard of Al Dunlap, etc.

[bizaro86]

Target permanently damaged its brand in Canada through poor execution. When they first opened, they had interesting products not found elsewhere in Canada. I bought a few different baby products (one I bought all they had) which were never restocked. I checked over 20 times (they were in a mall I go to often) and that product never reappeared for years, even though the tag/spot was still there. At some point execution failures do permanent brand damage. I don't believe they could have turned it around, even if they fixed execution, as popular opinion was that they sucked. Maybe they could have, but it would have taken years and years.

[rb]

Target permanently damaged its brand in Canada through poor execution. When they first opened, they had interesting products not found elsewhere in Canada. I bought a few different baby products (one I bought all they had) which were never restocked. I checked over 20 times (they were in a mall I go to often) and that product never reappeared for years, even though the tag/spot was still there. At some point execution failures do permanent brand damage. I don't believe they could have turned it around, even if they fixed execution, as popular opinion was that they sucked. Maybe they could have, but it would have taken years and years.

 

That's an excellent example.

 

I was so surprised that of the massive screwup since they took two years to start opening stores because they wanted to do a lot of research to get everything done right because they acknowledged the fact that a lot of retail companies fail to make it work in foreign markets. I guess they played brick breaker for two years.

[augustabound]

To add an example take BMW. Once you pass 70,000 km (45,000 miles for my American friends) everything on the car starts to break down and leak. The car is very well engineered and drives beautifully so it looks like they have the engineering know how to not make a car leak or to use better parts. They just don't. So it's engineered for everything to go once you hit 70k.

 

I feel that way about Blackberry. Over 4 years I had 5 different Blackberry phones and after about 8 months on each and every one of them something failed, usually with the physical phone itself.

Trackball, space bar and of course the battery. I went through a few batteries.

A few people I've worked with use them and have the same or similar experience.

 

The Target example is a good one here in Canada, I agree.

 

[Jurgis]

K-Mart suspended sales of all guns and ammunition on September 11, 2001 a matter of hours after the country had been attacked.  I couldn't help ask the question "Who's side are they on exactly?"  Even though there was still a K-Mart in the town I lived in back then, neither I nor my wife have stepped foot in a K-Mart since and never will.  I have a hard time even thinking about shopping at Sears, simply because they own K-Mart. Luckily there is no good reason to buy anything from Sears either.

 

Any other stores that permanently stopped sales of guns and ammunition?

I need a list of stores to support.

 

American obsession with guns is horrifying.

[boilermaker75]

 

To add an example take BMW. Once you pass 70,000 km (45,000 miles for my American friends) everything on the car starts to break down and leak. The car is very well engineered and drives beautifully so it looks like they have the engineering know how to not make a car leak or to use better parts. They just don't. So it's engineered for everything to go once you hit 70k.

 

On top of the hassle of and expense of fixing everything - some of which cannot be reasonably done - I have the extra problem where I drive a $100,000 car but I can't park it on any of my friends or clients driveways because I am afraid that I an going to stain the drive. (I've heard that Audi and Mercedes are the same). To me the brand and the price tag imply a promise that I shouldn't have to deal with things like that. So given their broken promise I guess my next car is a Lexus.

 

 

My wife has had the same experience with her M-class Mercedes. We are actually going to go look at a Lexus RX tomorrow.

[rb]

To add an example take BMW. Once you pass 70,000 km (45,000 miles for my American friends) everything on the car starts to break down and leak. The car is very well engineered and drives beautifully so it looks like they have the engineering know how to not make a car leak or to use better parts. They just don't. So it's engineered for everything to go once you hit 70k.

 

I feel that way about Blackberry. Over 4 years I had 5 different Blackberry phones and after about 8 months on each and every one of them something failed, usually with the physical phone itself.

Trackball, space bar and of course the battery. I went through a few batteries.

A few people I've worked with use them and have the same or similar experience.

 

The Target example is a good one here in Canada, I agree.

 

I've had the complete opposite experience with BBs. I'm on my forth one and every one still works perfectly - and I abuse the hell out of my phone. The older ones sit in a drawer for travel needs, etc. I still take one out after sitting there for a year or two, charge it, works perfectly. Maybe you or me were anomalies.

 

I guess that's another problem with brands. A lot of them cannot keep the product consistent, or they try to sell to more people than they should. Then the implied promise of the brand is different for different customers which leads to problems.

[rb]

K-Mart suspended sales of all guns and ammunition on September 11, 2001 a matter of hours after the country had been attacked.  I couldn't help ask the question "Who's side are they on exactly?"  Even though there was still a K-Mart in the town I lived in back then, neither I nor my wife have stepped foot in a K-Mart since and never will.  I have a hard time even thinking about shopping at Sears, simply because they own K-Mart. Luckily there is no good reason to buy anything from Sears either.

 

Any other stores that permanently stopped sales of guns and ammunition?

I need a list of stores to support.

 

American obsession with guns is horrifying.

 

+1 I was going to say something to the same effect but I didn't want to start a gun debate. I'm sure that there were a lot of Americans that were happy that after a tragedy like 9/11 you didn't have a whole bunch of well armed people looking to set things right on their own. Can you imagine the possibilities of what could have happened??

[rkbabang]

K-Mart suspended sales of all guns and ammunition on September 11, 2001 a matter of hours after the country had been attacked.  I couldn't help ask the question "Who's side are they on exactly?"  Even though there was still a K-Mart in the town I lived in back then, neither I nor my wife have stepped foot in a K-Mart since and never will.  I have a hard time even thinking about shopping at Sears, simply because they own K-Mart. Luckily there is no good reason to buy anything from Sears either.

 

Any other stores that permanently stopped sales of guns and ammunition?

I need a list of stores to support.

 

American obsession with guns is horrifying.

 

+1 I was going to say something to the same effect but I didn't want to start a gun debate.

 

 

Not that I know of.  I guess the two of you will be doing a lot of K-Mart shopping.

 

[rkbabang]

K-Mart suspended sales of all guns and ammunition on September 11, 2001 a matter of hours after the country had been attacked.  I couldn't help ask the question "Who's side are they on exactly?"  Even though there was still a K-Mart in the town I lived in back then, neither I nor my wife have stepped foot in a K-Mart since and never will.  I have a hard time even thinking about shopping at Sears, simply because they own K-Mart. Luckily there is no good reason to buy anything from Sears either.

 

Any other stores that permanently stopped sales of guns and ammunition?

I need a list of stores to support.

 

American obsession with guns is horrifying.

 

+1 I was going to say something to the same effect but I didn't want to start a gun debate. I'm sure that there were a lot of Americans that were happy that after a tragedy like 9/11 you didn't have a whole bunch of well armed people looking to set things right on their own. Can you imagine the possibilities of what could have happened??

 

I hate to break it to you, but the US is already filled with a bunch of well armed people.

[rb]

K-Mart suspended sales of all guns and ammunition on September 11, 2001 a matter of hours after the country had been attacked.  I couldn't help ask the question "Who's side are they on exactly?"  Even though there was still a K-Mart in the town I lived in back then, neither I nor my wife have stepped foot in a K-Mart since and never will.  I have a hard time even thinking about shopping at Sears, simply because they own K-Mart. Luckily there is no good reason to buy anything from Sears either.

 

Any other stores that permanently stopped sales of guns and ammunition?

I need a list of stores to support.

 

American obsession with guns is horrifying.

 

+1 I was going to say something to the same effect but I didn't want to start a gun debate. I'm sure that there were a lot of Americans that were happy that after a tragedy like 9/11 you didn't have a whole bunch of well armed people looking to set things right on their own. Can you imagine the possibilities of what could have happened??

 

I hate to break it to you, but the US is already filled with a bunch of well armed people.

 

Well I kinda still shop at K-mart. I live in Canada and K-Mart here was taken over by Wal-Mart in the 1990s.

 

We also don't have guns and we somehow manage to do ok.

[Aberhound]

I had thought of adding Wrigleys selling gum laced with neurotoxins but then I thought about people happily buying cancer sticks from cigarette manufacturers for decades. Smoking did not start to fall until it became socially unacceptable. Maybe socialized medicine will eventually do the same to selling neurotoxins. Eventually people will get fed up with paying for others medical costs caused by lack of care for one's own body and lack of care by manufacturers for the health of consumers.

[augustabound]

Well I kinda still shop at K-mart. I live in Canada and K-Mart here was taken over by Wal-Mart in the 1990s.

 

Kmart's leases were bought by HBC the parent of Zellers, Walmart wasn't involved at all. I worked at Kmart at that time.

It was a similar situation as Target buying Zellers leases...................then Canadian Tire and Lowes buying Target leases.

[rb]

Well I kinda still shop at K-mart. I live in Canada and K-Mart here was taken over by Wal-Mart in the 1990s.

 

Kmart's leases were bought by HBC the parent of Zellers, Walmart wasn't involved at all. I worked at Kmart at that time.

It was a similar situation as Target buying Zellers leases...................then Canadian Tire and Lowes buying Target leases.

 

My apologies. You are correct. Wal-Mart took out Woolworth when they came here. Well I guess I don't shop at K-mart after all.

[Guest Schwab711]

K-Mart suspended sales of all guns and ammunition on September 11, 2001 a matter of hours after the country had been attacked.  I couldn't help ask the question "Who's side are they on exactly?"  Even though there was still a K-Mart in the town I lived in back then, neither I nor my wife have stepped foot in a K-Mart since and never will.  I have a hard time even thinking about shopping at Sears, simply because they own K-Mart. Luckily there is no good reason to buy anything from Sears either.

 

Any other stores that permanently stopped sales of guns and ammunition?

I need a list of stores to support.

 

American obsession with guns is horrifying.

 

+1 I was going to say something to the same effect but I didn't want to start a gun debate. I'm sure that there were a lot of Americans that were happy that after a tragedy like 9/11 you didn't have a whole bunch of well armed people looking to set things right on their own. Can you imagine the possibilities of what could have happened??

 

I hate to break it to you, but the US is already filled with a bunch of well armed people.

 

Sorry for OT.

 

@Jurgis: I have a bit of a different perspective for this. My mom worked as the lead at the phone company for ensuring 9-1-1 calls contained necessary info in case a call is dropped (or a crime is unreported!). NY state [and I know some other states] forces regional police forces to work with phone companies to setup gun-shot sensors in areas that notoriously don't report crimes. With that said, America actually rates well below-average, globally, for mass-shooting incidents per gun permitted. On an absolute basis, we are slightly above-average (large population is the biggest reason), but we are not near the top country, as is perceived by media coverage. I think it's worth pointing out to those not living in the US that gun-incident statistics do not point to a nationwide epidemic as is perceived (Jurgis's "obsession" comment is fairly popular in the US). Inner-city shootings are far-and-away the biggest gun-related problem here and the majority of these shootings are from unlicensed guns. Simply put, the majority of people that die from guns in the US in any given year are due to suicide (2:1 margin, generally). Suicide is illegal in the US, which causes problems with statistics if they are not adjusted for.

 

There are more gun deaths from suicide in an average month in the US than the total number of deaths from mass-shootings over the past 25 years!

 

I heard about these stats a lot for a few years when the system was being implemented in NY. My family has never owned guns so most of what I know about the topic is from her job. She seemed to get the opinion from police across NY think the problem is over-exaggerated since nearly all permit holders follow the law and go a lifetime without incident. I don't mean to start a debate, just giving another perspective. I understand why folks see this as a big issue. To add to rkbabang's stat, the majority of Americans do not own a gun (there's a lot of Dale Gribbles out there :)).

[bizaro86]

On the other hand, I suspect the ready availability of licensed guns makes unlicensed guns easier and cheaper to acquire.

 

Also, "mass shooting incidents per gun permitted" is a ridiculous statistic. The only reasonable way to compare countries would be "mass shooting incidents per person." If the cause of the shootings is more guns (debatable) then a country with lots of extra guns has a bigger denominator in the shootings/gun statistic, which will naturally pull that lower.

 

Personally, the easy availability of legal/illegal guns probably increases the number of mass shootings, as it makes it easier for someone to commit one. Probably the bigger issue with that in the US is the health care system, as mental illness is certainly a factor in mass shootings. 

[augustabound]

 

My apologies. You are correct. Wal-Mart took out Woolworth when they came here. Well I guess I don't shop at K-mart after all.

 

No apology needed. The amount of failed Canadian retailers, it's hard to keep them straight.  ;D