Move for a job or stay for personal reasons?

[ERICOPOLY]

A two hour commute each way was the biggest reason why I wanted to quit my job.

[west]

As a guy with no wife and no kids, it's easy for me to say what I'm about to say, but...

 

Philadelphia and NYC look like they're really close to each other (via Google maps).  And I hear there's decent, if not good, public transit between them.

 

In the midwest, Texas, the west coast, etc., one can only dream of getting in a car (let alone public transit) and visiting relatives in less than two hours.

 

If your in-laws are near retirement age and don't mind spending time in Philly, you could also consider getting a house that's big enough where they could stay for an extended period of time.  Or a house with an "in-law".  In Philadelphia I'm guessing you could probably afford it.

 

Actually, the train from NYC to Philadelphia is a sweet 2 hour trip on a very nice double-decker train.  My brother and I quite enjoyed it!  But two hours is a long daily commute.  More likely Mdhousa would have to go to Philly early Monday morning, and then come back home late Thursday night, enjoying Friday, Saturday and Sunday at home.  But how would the missus feel about being the only caregiver to the kids three nights in the week?

 

Tough choices!  But as they say, "Happy wife, makes for happy life!"  Cheers!

 

For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure it would be seppuku-o'clock for me if I had to do a two four hour commute every day.  So I wasn't suggesting that at all!

 

I was more saying the relatives could hop on the train and visit easily.  It would be even easier for them if mhdousa had a place for them to stay.

 

*edit: two -> four

[mcliu]

Just remember, either way you decide, you’ll end up being the prime determiner of how things go…if you have a positive attitude, work hard, treat others well, etc, then you are likely to be quite content and happy irrespective of what you decide.

 

 

-Crip

+1

So true. Really good advice.

[mhdousa]

Guys -

Thanks for all the fantastic advice. Too much good stuff in here to reply to individual comments, but I do appreciate those who gave their own personal stories.

 

Just to clarify something, my wife is actually the major breadwinner in our family and because my hours are pretty rigid and hers (as a consultant) are crazy, I end up doing a lot of the childcare and cooking duties (which I love).

 

The suggestion of looking at Maslow's pyramid was a fascinating one.

 

I have not made a decision, but this was some interesting perspective.

 

Thanks!

Jay

[Ham Hockers]

Just to clarify something, my wife is actually the major breadwinner in our family and because my hours are pretty rigid and hers (as a consultant) are crazy, I end up doing a lot of the childcare and cooking duties (which I love).

 

Yeah, I was curious about that. IMO, I think this adds more weight to your wife having more say. i.e. maybe you need to be the one to suck it up (I mean that in the nicest way possible).

[Palantir]

Wouldn't there be more opps for somebody in finance in NY?

[GregS]

My story:  I quit my job at a prestigious law firm several years ago when my wife finished residency and we decided to relocate closer to family. I planned to find another job after we settled but ultimately decided to stay home with our kids. Life as dual working parents putting in 80+ hour weeks with a one year old at home had taken its toll, and we were both very happy with the much calmer lifestyle of one parent working. My wife replaced my income with fewer hours and I managed the home front. I understood what it was like to be the breadwinner and yet worry about child care that got screwed up now and again. I wanted to let me wife focus on her job as much as she could without worrying about the household.

 

There was definitely an ego hit in not pursuing my career, even if I voluntarily quit a job that made more money than many of my friends do currently. However, I didn't miss my old job for one day. My head and heart were always with my family and I hated when work got in the way of that. I was never able to find the balance and don't think I ever would. My two kids are older now and in school so things are changing quite a bit now, and I'm planning on getting back into work. My ambition was on hold - possibly beaten out of me by a terrible job - but with the time off I rediscovered it and found passions outside of law. I may work for myself. I think I'm going to like where I end up even if my path is less linear and takes longer. In the long run, I will never regret the time close to my wife and kids.

 

Some thoughts:

 

A lot of people have discussed prestige and regret, and I think those are key issues. Don't take the job because some external pressure says you should if your heart really wants to stay. Ambition is a strong force if genuine and internal but totally destructive if it comes from other people's expectations. You will end up pursuing the wrong things. I see over and over again people climbing the ladder because it is what they are supposed to do without ever thinking about whether it's the right ladder to be on. On the other hand, don't decline the job because of family if you really want to take it. Five years down the road you don't want to feel that your family held you back. You have to be comfortable with staying where you are, at least for a time.

 

Commute - sounds like you already nixed the commute idea, but I think that's a horrible idea. Especially if you are the primary caregiver for your children. Don't waste 2+ hrs of your day in a car. Getting a shorter commute would be a reason in favor of moving.

 

Child care - Are you having family take care of your child currently? Have you done child care options outside of family? Think hard about this one if you are moving away from a family-supported situation. If you haven't gone through it, child care will be much harder than you expect. Nannies get sick or have to run off for emergencies or quit on you. Child care centers close. Finding good ones is not easy and transitions are very hard. Being able to focus on work because someone you trust is taking care of the kids is priceless.

 

Career - Aside from just working at a better hospital, I'm guessing there are things you can do at the new hospital that you cannot do at the old one (research, cutting-edge work). Is this important? And don't discount the importance of working at a hospital with an underserved population. My wife worked at such a hospital in residency. It was one of the reasons she went into medicine and she misses that part of her old job terribly. She fulfills that need with an occasional medical mission but it's not the same.

 

Opportunity - Is this a once in a lifetime chance or will such opportunities be available in the future? Impossible to say, I'm sure, but something to think about. Taking a longer timeline to accomplish something isn't the worst thing in the world when the kids are young. Things will look really different when the kids are older.

 

Moving kids - I moved a couple of times when I was young (at age 6 and at age 10) and while it was bad enough for a time that I remember it vividly, the pain was also something that passed. I adjusted.

 

Good luck!

 

[Kraven]

You've gotten a lot of good advice here.  At the end of the day it's obvious that it comes down to the decisions you and your wife make.  No one can make those decisions for you and whatever advice is given is colored by that person's personal experience.  But by weighing it all in the aggregate hopefully it helps you reach your own conclusions.

 

Just from reading through the thread it strikes me that the only reason for moving is your career.  Your wife's career, family situation, etc seems to all be better where you are.  So you need to think about whether it's worth upsetting the existing balance in order to move a notch up yourself when no one else in the family gets anything and in fact may suffer a "loss".  That's not to say that it's all about keeping score, that isn't my point.  And it would be different if you were the sole breadwinner, but you're not. 

 

At the end of the day you want to get to a place where you have no regrets.  You want to make the best decisions you can with the information you have in hand.  It may turn out to be incorrect, but if you can honestly say you did the best with what you had at the time hopefully that is satisfactory.  Try to look deep into yourself and figure out why you want to make this move.  We all have ambition, there's nothing wrong with that.  But make sure you're doing something for the right reasons - "right" being personal to you and your wife and family. 

 

These aren't easy decisions.  Good luck.

[yadayada]

Want to quote this:

There is an element of paralysis by analysis in that people tend to inject “What about this, what about that?” into their decision-making process. Ultimately, there is no way to accurately forecast what would be best outcome…no way at all. After thinking and pondering and talking it out, you’re ultimately playing a guessing game.

very true. So hard to predict these things. Often the reason you like something can be very unexpected. And it is generally very difficult to predict how you will feel about something.

[Liberty]

Want to quote this:

There is an element of paralysis by analysis in that people tend to inject “What about this, what about that?” into their decision-making process. Ultimately, there is no way to accurately forecast what would be best outcome…no way at all. After thinking and pondering and talking it out, you’re ultimately playing a guessing game.

very true. So hard to predict these things. Often the reason you like something can be very unexpected. And it is generally very difficult to predict how you will feel about something.

 

I think it's like investing. It might not be possible to know the outcome of a decision ahead of time, but it's not like nothing about the situation can be known; it's certainly possible to tilt the odds in your favor by thinking about it carefully, analyzing the situation, making sure you have all the relevant information (gathering evidence about the top choices, thinking of ways to do trial runs or find proxies (people who have done what you are thinking of doing) to gather more data to make a better decisions, etc), etc.

 

I have a friend who told me once that she doesn't take any supplements (vitamins, Omega 3, etc). I asked why, and she said: There's so much information, a lot of it is contradictory, the science changes with new studies, how can you know what's the right thing to take?

 

The thing is, by taking nothing, she's also making a choice. She's not actually avoiding the problem. It could turn out to be a very sub-optimal choice. If rather than think "I can't know for sure, hence I'll do nothing", she said "let's see what I can know, what seems most likely to help, less likely to do harm, and I'll do what seems best based on the best information I can find", she might be doing something different that has a higher chance of being closer to the optimal path, whatever that is.

[ERICOPOLY]

Maybe you could keep the current job and find outside happiness in a new hobby or social club. This takes pressure off of needing to find happiness from your career. 

 

I hesitate to recommend skateboarding.

[rkbabang]

Want to quote this:

There is an element of paralysis by analysis in that people tend to inject “What about this, what about that?” into their decision-making process. Ultimately, there is no way to accurately forecast what would be best outcome…no way at all. After thinking and pondering and talking it out, you’re ultimately playing a guessing game.

very true. So hard to predict these things. Often the reason you like something can be very unexpected. And it is generally very difficult to predict how you will feel about something.

 

I think it's like investing. It might not be possible to know the outcome of a decision ahead of time, but it's not like nothing about the situation can be known; it's certainly possible to tilt the odds in your favor by thinking about it carefully, analyzing the situation, making sure you have all the relevant information (gathering evidence about the top choices, thinking of ways to do trial runs or find proxies (people who have done what you are thinking of doing) to gather more data to make a better decisions, etc), etc.

 

I have a friend who told me once that she doesn't take any supplements (vitamins, Omega 3, etc). I asked why, and she said: There's so much information, a lot of it is contradictory, the science changes with new studies, how can you know what's the right thing to take?

 

The thing is, by taking nothing, she's also making a choice. She's not actually avoiding the problem. It could turn out to be a very sub-optimal choice. If rather than think "I can't know for sure, hence I'll do nothing", she said "let's see what I can know, what seems most likely to help, less likely to do harm, and I'll do what seems best based on the best information I can find", she might be doing something different that has a higher chance of being closer to the optimal path, whatever that is.

 

Very good analogy, because everyone is different, so the "optimal path" (if such a thing exists) will be different for every individual. This is true with both supplements and careers. And, because you can only choose one path, in the end you will never know if you've achieved it.

 

And since we are both just paraphrasing a Rush song, let me post the relevant lines:

 

Your post (Liberty):

 

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."

 

My Post:

 

"Each of us, a cell of awareness

Imperfect and incomplete

Genetic blends with uncertain ends

On a fortune hunt that's far too fleet"

 

[ERICOPOLY]

Hey, as long as we're quoting song lyrics...

I'm just a no class beat down fool

and I will always be that way

I might as well enjoy my life

and watch the stars play

[CorpRaider]

Happy wife, happy life.  ;D

[tengen]

Happy wife, happy life.  ;D

 

Haha, I was just about to post that.

 

Ericopoly, I'm disappointed you didn't recommend surfing.

 

As for the OP, maybe there's another job close to where you live that meets your goals?

 

[ERICOPOLY]

 

Ericopoly, I'm disappointed you didn't recommend surfing.

 

 

I figured he lives too far away.

[tengen]

 

Ericopoly, I'm disappointed you didn't recommend surfing.

 

 

I figured he lives too far away.

 

Surf might appear in unexpected places: http://www.surfberlin.com

[pocoapoco]

The points you've made make it seem pretty compelling to stay.

 

I'm actually a little surprised that your wife is "very supportive if it would be better for my career".  To be blunt, it would be better for your career, but it would be worse for hers (she is the major breadwinner, and "quite established and very highly-regarded in her current office").  So, why is your career more important than hers?  That is clearly implied.  Do you complain a lot about your current job and she's hoping this will make you happy?  Or perhaps is it a cultural thing (to be a supportive wife)?  Because rationally it doesn't seem a net positive and that's just taking into account your combined job situation. 

 

Once you throw in:

"my wife's family is in the area where we live now"

"We just bought a house that we love"

"We have great friends who live in our area"

"our toddler daughter is in a great child-care situation"

"she [my wife] does not want to move"

 

.. then it seems like a slam dunk to stay.  It would have to be a ridiculously amazing opportunity to offset your wife's career and all of these things and maybe it is but that's not how you sell it.  Yes, lets assume it's a better hospital and more interesting.  But you confess "we serve a very poor population and that is incredibly rewarding" so obviously you are getting some utility from your current situation.  You can afford to wait, since you are still accumulating experience where you are and your value is not diminishing.  There will likely be more opportunities in the future and you can assess the situation then.

 

[cobafdek]

The quality of the people there and the interesting patients that come there make it a much more intellectually stimulating place.

 

I'm going to latch onto this sentence of yours from earlier in the thread.  I'm guessing you've been in your current position somewhere between 5-10 years, and to make explicit what is implied, you're becoming bored.  Welcome to the club.  Even in a field as rich and fascinating as medicine, things get intellectually stale if you stay in one place more than 10 years.

 

Looking at the arc of my career these past 30 years, I notice I've made some kind of major change approximately every 5-10 years.  I realize now that, whatever my stated reasons for making the changes at the time, subconsciously I was fighting against becoming an intellectual vegetable.  Becoming a drone was the risk of inertia, and I suspect this is true not only in the medical profession.  I'll go out on a limb and hypothesize this reason was a less obvious factor for why the Buffett Partnership lasted . . . 10 years.

 

First, I started out in academic research.  The colleagues who recruited me, of whom I was awestruck initially, eventually became . . . boring.  Then I left and moonlighted, but travel and irregular locum tenens positions eventually became . . . boring.  Got married, had a kid, bought a private practice, which over time led to . . . tedium.  A simple solution turned out to be moving the office to a new location, and it felt like a completely new job.  Now I'm "retired" (I can completely quit medicine) with office hours 4 days/week seeing about 5 patient/day, so more time for the value investing pastime, not to mention spending an inordinate amount of time on CoBF.

 

So kudos to you for trying to keep things fresh.  Just don't move to Philly.  The medical world in NYC is vast with a variety of career options.

[oddballstocks]

The quality of the people there and the interesting patients that come there make it a much more intellectually stimulating place.

 

Looking at the arc of my career these past 30 years, I notice I've made some kind of major change approximately every 5-10 years.  I realize now that, whatever my stated reasons for making the changes at the time, subconsciously I was fighting against becoming an intellectual vegetable.  Becoming a drone was the risk of inertia, and I suspect this is true not only in the medical profession.  I'll go out on a limb and hypothesize this reason was a less obvious factor for why the Buffett Partnership lasted . . . 10 years.

 

First, I started out in academic research.  The colleagues who recruited me, of whom I was awestruck initially, eventually became . . . boring.  Then I left and moonlighted, but travel and irregular locum tenens positions eventually became . . . boring.  Got married, had a kid, bought a private practice, which over time led to . . . tedium.  A simple solution turned out to be moving the office to a new location, and it felt like a completely new job.  Now I'm "retired" (I can completely quit medicine) with office hours 4 days/week seeing about 5 patient/day, so more time for the value investing pastime, not to mention spending an inordinate amount of time on CoBF.

 

 

Really interesting observation, really interesting.  When I think about my own career and that of close friends the 5-10 year mark certainly holds true.

 

On an unrelated note I find it fascinating that two career profiles take to investing almost intuitively, doctors and engineers/IT.  My cousin is a doctor and knows zero about investing, asked about value investing, I gave a short little explanation and he 'got it' right away.  I've had a similar experience with other doctors, must be how they think.  I find it interesting that this board is full of doctors, engineers and IT people.  But not full of purchasing managers, marketing specialists, traffic cops and teachers.

 

 

[Ham Hockers]

The quality of the people there and the interesting patients that come there make it a much more intellectually stimulating place.

 

I'm going to latch onto this sentence of yours from earlier in the thread.  I'm guessing you've been in your current position somewhere between 5-10 years, and to make explicit what is implied, you're becoming bored.  Welcome to the club.  Even in a field as rich and fascinating as medicine, things get intellectually stale if you stay in one place more than 10 years.

 

Looking at the arc of my career these past 30 years, I notice I've made some kind of major change approximately every 5-10 years.  I realize now that, whatever my stated reasons for making the changes at the time, subconsciously I was fighting against becoming an intellectual vegetable.  Becoming a drone was the risk of inertia, and I suspect this is true not only in the medical profession.  I'll go out on a limb and hypothesize this reason was a less obvious factor for why the Buffett Partnership lasted . . . 10 years.

 

First, I started out in academic research.  The colleagues who recruited me, of whom I was awestruck initially, eventually became . . . boring.  Then I left and moonlighted, but travel and irregular locum tenens positions eventually became . . . boring.  Got married, had a kid, bought a private practice, which over time led to . . . tedium.  A simple solution turned out to be moving the office to a new location, and it felt like a completely new job.  Now I'm "retired" (I can completely quit medicine) with office hours 4 days/week seeing about 5 patient/day, so more time for the value investing pastime, not to mention spending an inordinate amount of time on CoBF.

 

So kudos to you for trying to keep things fresh.  Just don't move to Philly.  The medical world in NYC is vast with a variety of career options.

 

Very interesting. I've been at my current position almost 5 years. I wasn't actively looking for a change, but got approached about this and another position (which was a little too far away).

 

As I mentioned in a reply above, my field is quite small and, for whatever reason, there aren't many hospitals in NYC that have strong groups for this.

 

The thing that is so appealing about the larger group is that, in my current place, I'm one of the more senior people, so there aren't those wise elders that I was so used to having at the other places I've trained. I still feel like I have a lot to learn in my field. The idea of being at a place that is much bigger with more experienced (and some ridiculously brilliant) physicians is incredibly enticing from that standpoint. I don't get that intellectual stimulation on a regular basis here.

 

How do you feel about living in NYC vs. Philly in general, other than the job and family?

[AzCactus]

Mh,

 

You mention below that you weren't actively looking for a change.  I think this is vital to the extent it implies that you were satisfied with your career and life in NYC. 

 

I think if I was in your shoes I would try to be as objective as possible by doing the following:

  1. Write pros and cons of moving to Philadelphia and staying in NYC.

  2. Assign a weight to each of these.  While I have no idea how exactly you quantify being near family or your wife being happy with her job you could probably estimate.

  3. Pick the city that nets the higher number. 

 

I am fully aware this may sound overly simplistic, but after reading many of these great posts---I think the above approach would help create a sense of clarity. 

 

Again good luck and I am sure you guys will make the right choice  :)

[rranjan]

All of us can give opinions but it will come down to how you and your wife feel about it. If  both of you will be more happy at new place then go for it. Now, it's hard to tell how both of you will feel but you can make an educated guess.

 

I can't speak on your behalf but if I were in your situation, I would have slightly preferred to keep my current job. Career wise, it will be a step up for one and a step down for another. She is a major bread earner in family but I think Philly being less costly will take care of that factor.

 

Family is very important but I won't really think too much about it. It will be surely a bit negative due to your move but I will give it less priority. It's only 2 hours drive anyway so not a huge issue. Childcare is surely more important factor. I think you can find decent childcare. If your child goes to a childcare right now then I won't be much worried about new place. It will be bit of adjustment for sure. Also, you said that current place schedule is rigid and it allows you be the primary care giver for your child. What will be the situation in new place? If it's similar then it's not an issue.

 

I think, it comes down to how you and your wife feel about it. If both of you are fine then go for it. You are not getting pay hike or not doing it for prestige here but it seems you will be happier in new place. Try to see how much unhappy your wife may be in new place. Less opportunities doesn't necessarily mean unhappiness. Only she can answer it truthfully. Pretty much happy wife makes a happy life.

[rmitz]

The points you've made make it seem pretty compelling to stay.

 

I'm actually a little surprised that your wife is "very supportive if it would be better for my career".  To be blunt, it would be better for your career, but it would be worse for hers (she is the major breadwinner, and "quite established and very highly-regarded in her current office").  So, why is your career more important than hers?  That is clearly implied.  Do you complain a lot about your current job and she's hoping this will make you happy?  Or perhaps is it a cultural thing (to be a supportive wife)?  Because rationally it doesn't seem a net positive and that's just taking into account your combined job situation. 

 

Once you throw in:

"my wife's family is in the area where we live now"

"We just bought a house that we love"

"We have great friends who live in our area"

"our toddler daughter is in a great child-care situation"

"she [my wife] does not want to move"

 

.. then it seems like a slam dunk to stay.  It would have to be a ridiculously amazing opportunity to offset your wife's career and all of these things and maybe it is but that's not how you sell it.  Yes, lets assume it's a better hospital and more interesting.  But you confess "we serve a very poor population and that is incredibly rewarding" so obviously you are getting some utility from your current situation.  You can afford to wait, since you are still accumulating experience where you are and your value is not diminishing.  There will likely be more opportunities in the future and you can assess the situation then.

 

+1

 

Even including later posts, it doesn’t sound worth it to me.

[DCG]

Moving anywhere closer to Eagles fans can't be a great idea.