Myth465

Whats strange to me and has always been is a Fireman and Teacher with a decent amount of overtime for the firefighter puts them in the top 10%. I agree with Crip1's friends which is why I dont think logically thinking about this makes sense. People feel a certain way and are looking at income charts and graphs to justify their feelings. They arent looking at those documents then determining how they feel. The feeling is there and real, and they are simple looking for a logical way to express it. Smart folks like Parker then try to debate the logic and graphs and charts with sound economic reasoning without dealing with the core feelings. Basically as Crip said people simply feel the rich win no matter what. They win when we grow, win we fail, and win in a depression because of their connections with government. There is no downside to being rich, is probably what most people think. They have a heads I win, and tails I win situation. The middle class though, gets hammered all the way through and hasnt won much of anything. They have been basically under attack. They want a sacrifice by the Rich, and the rich and their backers are basically trying to organize another tax cut via a flat tax as a way to "grow the economy". You can continue debating the merits of the argument or just give up a token tax rise and some regulation changes and things go away. I know what I would do... This is moral hazard, you cant ask everyone to give up something, if you arent willing to give up anything, and arent even willing to fire people who caused the issue.

I guess only time will tell. I just think people get into trouble when they apply / extrapolate logic and reason to masses of people..

Thanks for the link. Always enjoy Koo.

Where is this from. I would like to read whatever article this is attached to. Greece has everyone by the balls, but that doesnt mean things are peachy for them. My guess is there will be hell to pay if the continue screwing with the markets / euro. They have been in default for 160 out of the last 200 years, but being broke and shunned by the world really sucks once you have had a taste of the rich life. I was enjoying the rally....

I think that sounds logical, but people arent inherently logical. Riots are based on emotion, opportunity, fairness, and thoughts of wrong and right. Look at Greece, their riots dont make sense from your perspective. They are out in the street because something that was given to them (benefits which haven't been paid for) is being taken away. They arent starving, but they feel threatened. Look at the UK, there its just opportunity and not feeling apart of the system inmo. One painful lesson which I have learned over and over is for most people perception is reality. Wages for the middle class has been stagnant for several decades. On the path we are on I think wages may even start to decline inflation adjusted. That will have effects at some point. I dont see people going gee my country is getting worse, and I am part of the first generation to be worse off then my parents, but I have food to eat and an I Phone oh well. All you need is a charismatic speaker to tap into that anger and .... I think people riot when their quality of life is being affected or when they dont think they have a stake in the system. People have rarely been starving in the US and we have had massive social riots / eruptions over rights and fairness.

nwoodman you are in Australia right? If so what city? I have just moved to Melbourne and its been an interesting experience. In the inner suburbs prices are a bit too high, but not insane from where I sit. When you are on the ground down here its quite interesting. It doesnt look like the US Bubble. Incomes here are also much higher then the US. I am not sure how this plays out but its interesting to watch.

I dont think anyone would argue with Gates. From a quality of life perspective things are probably much closer than in any other period. Poor people do have I Phones, TVs, dish washers, and AC. But thats fairly irrelevant when it comes to keeping the peace. How people feel and how things are 2 very different things. I would focus on how people feel in the interest of self preservation if I were rich...

He and his wife have one child (I hunted for his bio hoping to find him with like 7 children or something). LOL

People ask me why I choose Accounting and I tell them its the language of business, and I wanted to be a businessman and decided that learning the language would be useful (been interviewing lately and this is my go to BS answer). When pressed for the truth or after a few drinks. I tell them that I was a terrible student because I was uncommitted, and I got a B in my Accounting class without trying or going to most of the lectures. Everyone else struggled and hated it. All the Marketing, Management, and ISQS majors were just praying for a C or D and were putting in tons of hours. Tech was screwed in 2000 so I switched from Info systems to accounting... My job is pretty easy to me, but most people I know would be bored to tears, or confused doing it. I am pretty mathematical, but engineering would bore me or confuse me. Someone else said that they were sitting in a room full of English majors and couldn't see any of them as engineers based on the conversation, and their coursework. I cant draw a straight line and could never do anything creative, artistic, or imaginative. Also couldnt do anything requiring adequate or grammar spelling (you all have seen me, and thats after spell check). If you think we have a surplus of of none math and science guys due to incentives then I need to take you to a Liberal Arts college in a university for a meet and greet. Most of those guys are generalists at best. People just aren't wired for certain things. I agree with your proposal and am fairly pragmatic. If I were king, I would develop a skills shortage list. Put key skills where foreigners are filling jobs, and would offer a rate reduction or 10% fee reduction for grads in that degree. It will help at the margins inmo but isnt the solution to our employment woes. ---- I tried to phrase it as politely as I can. I am fairly left of center politically, but am a realist. I dont think people are all the same but its the system that screws them over (the left), and I dont think people just need to be pushed to work harder and be given better options and choices (the right). Some people are just dumb. They will occupy the space towards the bottom of society. INMO what you are proposing is trying to create a super country of citizens. It wont work inmo. I have been across a large part of the world and I have encountered dumb though hardworking people in all countries. We can improve those choices and options for people, but arent there people in your life who simply arent able to move past working a cash register, or other low skill job. I know plenty of these folks. Havent you come across a guy and wondered how he got dressed in the morning. Did you really think it was simple that he went to the wrong public school. As someone else pointed out the ovarian lottery is real, and its a disservice inmo to believe that you are where you are solely because of access and choices. Its like a beautiful girl who doesnt appreciate what god gave her, and discounts it. Its just not fair to the ugly girl... We all have potential inmo, but that potential isnt equal and inmo is range bound. We should be pushing people towards the top end of their perspective range, but shouldnt kid ourselves on how far everyone can go. ---- INMO people arent being realistic about the jobs debate. 2 billion people are coming online and have entered the labor force during a period of increased globalization and mechanization. I just dont think there are enough jobs to go around for everyone on the planet. You can probably now supply toy demand for the world from a city full of factories in China, vs. probably several hundred spread across the world. Thats great for people who want to buy cheap toys, great for that city in China, great for logistic companies, but kinda sucks if you made toys in Italy or small town US. Americans are priced out due to our higher lifestyle and costs (which we should aim to keep), and are quite comfortable shipping their jobs overseas to low skill workers (company managers and politicians are). I dont see how you get around the labor arbitrage. If we pushed a few more people into fields where there are shortages, that would be great, but that does nothing for the displaced low skill worker. You could try to retrain him, but depending on the prior job and the new job, that may not work well. To pretend that everyone is better off due to globalization is dis-ingeniousness at best. Everything has costs, everything has winners and losers. Win win deals are so great, because they are so rare. We should have an honest debate and deal with the downsides of the decisions we make.. txlaw actually has the right idea. Workers in this day and age need to be flexible. I would be looking to push in more generalists and revamp those liberal arts degrees to produce well rounded adaptable learning machines. College should probably be pushed down to 2 years also outside of specialized degrees like Acct, Engineering, Medicine, Science, and a few other things. Ken Robinson has the right idea as well, we just arent all built to be engineers and scientist. I could hack engineering and would likely dislike it more than accounting, and science is a big no no for me. We need to get more out of everyone and not funnel everyone into the job of today. Its likely that job will be significantly different tomorrow. Thats my long rant for the day, I should be out enjoying Halloween, nice night for people watching - women wear all sorts of crazy things ;D.

LOL smart man. I would cut spending a bit, mainly military and reform entitlements to make them more sustainable (tackled as unrelated to the deficient). Tax raises on everyone though dis-proportionally would be how the bulk of things were sorted though. Might even add a vat tax, while cutting a few other taxes perhaps. We still have one side tripping over themselves to cut taxes for those well off though, via a flat tax system though.... Ungovernable we are . Should be interesting when folks stop buying our bonds. We will likely continue the debate on whether we cut spending to deal with lower bond sales, or raise taxes... --- Of course this thread will turn into a theory based discussion on the optimum tax rate, which will be heated and interesting, but wont do anything to solve the problem.

farnam you really know how to craft a lead in. Have bookedmarked and will read soon.

Packer as the son of a foreigner I think you are looking at things the wrong way. America is a machine that sucks in the best, brightest, and most hard working / hungry from all over the world. It also pulls in some low skill workers to round things out, but it definitely gets the cream of the crop. You are comparing that batch to Joe and Jane six pack. There are billions of people in China, India, and Africa who are much worse off than Joe and Jane, but arent allowed to come here. There will always be Joe and Jane, we can either design a system which allows them to live with dignity, and also allows society to get the most use of them. Or we can continue working to transform Joe and Jane to Mohammed, Sameer, Chang, and Abraham who are literally the best and brightest from the rest of the world. I dont think the ladder will work very well.

Interesting I am thinking the same. Was up a whooping 60% in Feb. Now up just 10%....

LOL, I called him that first...

Europe is like GW Bush. The bar was just extremely low. The market is simple impressed there is an agreement, I am as well.

I go with Kuh but im not the definitive source on the matter.

Rose gets to the bottom of this - http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/11962 Great interview.

Faber is fine in interview format whenever I need any doom and gloom, but I cant imagine reading much by him. I plan to focus on the history books when I get time. I agree with his comments on investing. After 4 investing books and 1 - 2 years of practice you can really move on to books that teach you how to think, how to deal with pain, and how to stand behind your convictions without being dogheaded. Those are the real things people need to learn to find success. Bargains are usually obvious.

I dont think this is the problem.

Interesting list jobs was a prick, but over a lifetime I am sure a list like that could be developed about me. Minus the daughter and firing part...

The charge is good for consumers and good for the banks. Also good for transparency. In banking the poor subsidized the rich account holders via overdraft and other fees. Now its been cleaned up a bit and if the overdraft and debit card fees are to be reduced charges should come in to replace them. Also the big banks probably dont want account holders who have less than $1000, dont direct deposit, dont overdraft, and dont add any value to the bottom line. I have 3 accounts and will be reducing it to 2. One account has $50 in it and adds no value to me and no value to the bank really. If people are too lazy, stupid, or whatever to change banks then shouldnt they just pay the $5. I mean there are literally 100 banks between online and branch available to every US citizen. Some even rebate ATM fees and have other perks. The big banks get smaller, community banks pickup the slack, and things get more transparent. Whats not to like?

I didnt get as much out of Volker interview. I dont watch TV but watch Rose everyday.

I got the vibe he was sharp but the delivery was off. I think he is spot on though. Economics and politics needs some ground rules, and they need to meet in a padded room and agree on how the "machine works" other wise they will keep talking past each other, but perhaps thats the point. Ray does - read better then view.

Didnt catch that they financed it with 5 year notes..... Not a good move. They should have matched the maturity or at least have gone out to 10 - 15 years. I dont have a prob with the 30 year mortgage because its standard, but you have a point. I am still trying to wrap my head around Melbourne property trading at 12 times income. Its not as crazy as it sounds when you are on the ground, but its still crazy....

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/mortgage-modification-one-non-profit-lender-doing-help-150944807.html Not one dollar of Federal money. I would like the see the Feds help to scale this program in one way or another. I dont see any real holes, what about you guys.