US is a poor country

[Eldad]

Reminds me of every Bloomberg Opinion article title. Find something almost universally true, then make the title say the opposite, then employ the worlds worst argument to take advantage of our reactionary passions on the one hand and over open-mindedness on the other. 
 

 

Edited 21 hours ago by Eldad

[Sinbius]

33 minutes ago, whiskybravo said:

Fair enough! It is absolutely the right spot and it’s been a fun debate.  But you have to admit, starting a thread titled US is a poor country is a pretty massive piece of bait.  

 

 

 

I admit it 

 

..but I had "good" intention...I find this idealization of the American dream wrong...most American are not doing well...and that could be said of course of the people of other countries...the difference is that other countries are not in denial...

 

 

Edited 20 hours ago by Sinbius

[Castanza]

3 hours ago, LC said:

The US does a great job making massive amounts of edible food as cheaply as possible. I do question the sustainability. We pump dead soil full of ammonia, we suck water and drain natural water tables, and then every end product is either bathed in bleach or assaulted with radiation to sterilize it. Quality sucks, however. But the goal is not quality, the goal is to feed 400 million people as cheaply as possible.

 

It's no wonder we are also the leader in developing drugs to control for obesity, diabetes, high blood pressure. 

 

Wendell Berry is that you? 

[EBITDAg]

1 hour ago, Malmqky said:

The U.S. has insane wealth disparity. Obviously. 

Because the richest people (who are mostly 1st or 2nd generation immigrants) came to the US and built enormous companies in the country with the highest disposable incomes and deepest capital markets. Not because the poor in America are so much worse off than poor Italians. There are just way more rich people in the US.

[Eldad]

17 minutes ago, Sinbius said:

 

I admit it 

 

..but I had "good" intention...I find this idealization of the American dream wrong...most American are not doing well...and that could be said of course of the people of other countries...the difference is that other countries are not in denial...

 

 

By some measures the US is 5th in median household income and by others it is 2nd. So the average person is doing among the best in the world without the billionaires. The countries above the US are tax shelters or petroleum states. If the median person is 2nd or 5th, how are the majority not doing well exactly? 
 

The above average person and entrepreneur class is doing fantastically better than everywhere else. 10% of the US are millionaires. Representing 40% of millionaires worldwide with 5% of the worlds population. 
 

The US also has by far the largest economy and almost all of the worlds great businesses. 
 

Who is in denial here? Everyone or you? 

[Castanza]

Wealth in a vacuum doesn't mean much. Accessibility to goods, services, and opportunities is far more important. The US does this pretty damn well imo. Sure we don't have the living museum aesthetics (we should have been Art Deco) like much of Europe; and we have gone down the corporatocracy path a little too far (imo)....But there is no question that opportunity is abundant in the US for all and to get started not much effort is needed. 

 

Also in the US we like space! Cannot imagine being stuffed in a 100sqft townhome with my kids, parents, grandparents and in-laws.....Sounds like Hell on earth 

[Sinbius]

33 minutes ago, Eldad said:

By some measures the US is 5th in median household income and by others it is 2nd. So the average person is doing among the best in the world without the billionaires. The countries above the US are tax shelters or petroleum states. If the median person is 2nd or 5th, how are the majority not doing well exactly? 
 

The above average person and entrepreneur class is doing fantastically better than everywhere else. 10% of the US are millionaires. Representing 40% of millionaires worldwide with 5% of the worlds population. 
 

The US also has by far the largest economy and almost all of the worlds great businesses. 
 

Who is in denial here? Everyone or you? 

 

Median household income is incomplete without accounting to the cost of living and debt situation ( and how it decrease from the median down the curve...)...

What you have said it is true...but at the same time The U.S. bottom 50% generally possesses less real purchasing power than their counterparts in Western and Northern Europe...(source :⁠ World Inequality Database (WID) and the ⁠OECD Income and Wealth Distribution Databases.)

Edited 19 hours ago by Sinbius

[LC]

45 minutes ago, Castanza said:

Wendell Berry is that you? 

 

I had never heard of Wendell Berry but sounds like an interesting guy. Reminds me a bit of Henry Thoreau. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendell_Berry

 

 

30 minutes ago, Castanza said:

and we have gone down the corporatocracy path a little too far (imo)....But there is no question that opportunity is abundant in the US for all and to get started not much effort is needed. 

 

Agree with this take. The anti-corporate criticism all is a bit romantic but I think there's a fair point buried in the sentiment. 

[Castanza]

12 minutes ago, LC said:

 

I had never heard of Wendell Berry but sounds like an interesting guy. Reminds me a bit of Henry Thoreau. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendell_Berry

 

 

 

Agree with this take. The anti-corporate criticism all is a bit romantic but I think there's a fair point buried in the sentiment. 

 

The Unsettling Of America is his Magnum Opus and Nick Offerman narrated the audio book. Very much in line with Thoreau although slightly different focuses. Goes great with a glass of Kentucky Bourbon.

[Eldad]

1 hour ago, Sinbius said:

 

Median household income is incomplete without accounting to the cost of living and debt situation ( and how it decrease from the median down the curve...)...

What you have said it is true...but at the same time The U.S. bottom 50% generally possesses less real purchasing power than their counterparts in Western and Northern Europe...(source :⁠ World Inequality Database (WID) and the ⁠OECD Income and Wealth Distribution Databases.)

Ok so top 50% is unparalleled in the world basically. And if you tweak a lot of things, the Bottom 50% is maybe top 10 or 15 when compared to small, mostly homogeneous, semi-socialist European countries with no social dynamism. How do you get “poor” from that?

You are starting to remind me of the German propagandist on the speaker in Saving Private Ryan “the Statue of Liberty is Kaput”

[wabuffo]

On 7/19/2026 at 3:49 PM, Sinbius said:

Hi,

 

I always get the impression that people on this forum think of US as a rich country...with a great capitalistic system that produce wealth left and right if you only want to put the effort and have the initiative to do something in your life...the American dream...everyone has a shot at big success...

 

Enough talk let's show the numbers (global wealth report 2026 is the source)...: 

Median Wealth vs. Mean Wealth per Adult

 

Rank (Median)	Country / Market	Median Wealth (USD)	Mean Wealth (USD)	Impact of Inequality / Insights
1	Luxembourg	$394,005	$654,732	Balanced distribution; exceptionally wealthy middle class.
2	Belgium	$277,166	$408,000	High wealth equality with widespread homeownership.
3	Australia	$210,783	$616,036	Widespread wealth, but heavily skewed upward by ultra-rich.
4	New Zealand	$206,617	$449,852	Strong balance between total country wealth and distribution.
5	Denmark	$203,771	$523,344	Robust social safety net supporting middle-class stability.
6	Hong Kong (SAR)	$187,968	$648,267	Major financial hub with extreme capital concentration at the top.
7	Canada	$147,811	$399,886	Significantly more equitable distribution than its US neighbor.
11	Italy	~ $110,000	$279,439	Solid baseline wealth due to high homeownership and private savings.
15	Germany	$53,485	$346,613	Low homeownership rates; real estate wealth is concentrated in few hands.
28	United States	$68,998	$696,277	Extreme gap; billionaires heavily inflate a mean detached from daily reality.

 

This data is from the UBS Global Wealth Report 2026.   Yet the same report in 2025 had median US Wealth Per Adult = $124,041.   

 

Was there a Great Depression II that hit the US in the last year? 

$124k in 2025 to $69k in 2026?   lolz.

 

I think this study and its results should be taken with a big grain of NaCl.

 

The Federal Reserve does a triannual Survey of Consumer Finances and the latest study in 2025 pegged median US family net worth at $192,900.  

 

And as others have mentioned, Americans owe a much lower percentage of their median wealth to the value of their principal residence (see chart below from the OECD).  In terms of liquid median net worth, it adds some more context to some of the numbers.

 

 

Bill

Edited 12 hours ago by wabuffo

[Red Lion]

5 hours ago, Sinbius said:

 

False statement according to ⁠World Inequality Database (WID) and the ⁠OECD Income and Wealth Distribution Databases.

 

The U.S. bottom 50% generally possesses less real purchasing power than their counterparts in Western and Northern Europe.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I just asked ChatGPT what percentage of Americans work full time, and the answer was 48.6% with another 10% working part time. It doesn't seem like any huge surprise that the bottom 50% generally possess less purchasing power since they're not working... 

 

If 50% of a society doesn't work, then they will have the most purchasing power when there's a stronger safety net. Meanwhile, it seems like a lot of the countries with great safety nets don't have as much opportunity for wealth creation from looking at the numbers you're presenting. 

 

As far as the median net worth, I feel like the health insurance setup in the USA probably plays the biggest role in this. The biggest obstacle (in the USA) to starting a business, is being able to maintain/afford health insurance. Same problem for anyone who doesn't have a corporate/government job. But you can get free or nearly free insurance by keeping a low income (with ACA) and almost zero assets (with Medicaid). There are plenty of Medicaid recipients that could save some money, but it would be foolish to do so since it would mean getting kicked off of medical insurance. If you're in the bottom 50%, you probably need to bridge the gap to the top 20-30% just to make up for the differential in health insurance costs. When you factor in SNAP, discounted utility rates, section 8 type housing, and EITC, these all act as a huge disincentive for the poor/lower middle class to make otherwise good financial decisions. This framework keeps lots of people poor, costs the taxpayers (almost exclusively the rich by the way) more in the long run, and steers more of our economic activity under the table. 

[Marco Van Basten]

10 hours ago, Sinbius said:

 

I admit it 

 

..but I had "good" intention...I find this idealization of the American dream wrong...most American are not doing well...and that could be said of course of the people of other countries...the difference is that other countries are not in denial...

 

 

Where on bloody earth do you get that most Americans are not doing well?   If you exclude those who either became seriously ill or had someone in their immediate family become seriously ill, what % of people who acquired useful skills, worked hard, lived within their means and invested their savings did poorly?  And no, someone who went to Columbia and got a degree in gender studies and now can't get a job does not qualify.  

[Sinbius]

12 hours ago, wabuffo said:

 

This data is from the UBS Global Wealth Report 2026.   Yet the same report in 2025 had median US Wealth Per Adult = $124,041.   

 

Was there a Great Depression II that hit the US in the last year? 

$124k in 2025 to $69k in 2026?   lolz.

 

I think this study and its results should be taken with a big grain of NaCl.

 

The Federal Reserve does a triannual Survey of Consumer Finances and the latest study in 2025 pegged median US family net worth at $192,900.  

 

And as others have mentioned, Americans owe a much lower percentage of their median wealth to the value of their principal residence (see chart below from the OECD).  In terms of liquid median net worth, it adds some more context to some of the numbers.

 

 

Bill

 

Thank you.

It is a bit of a mystery.

Putting aside the fact that it was still behind France, UK ,Italy, Spain etc...it is a too much big step...

 

In theory: According to the UBS Global Wealth Report, the decrease in U.S. median wealth was driven by a methodology shift adjusting for cumulative inflation, combined with an intensifying K-shaped economic divide. While surging asset prices increased wealth for the top tier, the median household's net worth compressed due to inflation and a lack of significant stock market exposure.

 

Not a satisfying explanation...I am reading to figure it out...a major data correction and methodology update...(...it was adjusted for a cumulative 20% inflation from 2020 to 2025...still doesn't add up...)

Edited 5 hours ago by Sinbius

[Sinbius]

4 hours ago, Marco Van Basten said:

....If you exclude those who either became seriously ill or had someone in their immediate family become seriously ill, what % of people who acquired useful skills, worked hard, lived within their means and invested their savings did poorly? ....

 

In any part of the world if you save and invest well you'll do great...

 

The typical U.S. household holds a median of $8,000 in savings and checking accounts. However, about 24% of adults have zero emergency savings...

[Eldad]

4 hours ago, Sinbius said:

 

In any part of the world if you save and invest well you'll do great...

 

Yeah, you can invest in US companies from anywhere now. The whole world does if that tells you anything. 

[cubsfan]

15 hours ago, Red Lion said:

 

I just asked ChatGPT what percentage of Americans work full time, and the answer was 48.6% with another 10% working part time. It doesn't seem like any huge surprise that the bottom 50% generally possess less purchasing power since they're not working... 

 

If 50% of a society doesn't work, then they will have the most purchasing power when there's a stronger safety net. Meanwhile, it seems like a lot of the countries with great safety nets don't have as much opportunity for wealth creation from looking at the numbers you're presenting. 

 

As far as the median net worth, I feel like the health insurance setup in the USA probably plays the biggest role in this. The biggest obstacle (in the USA) to starting a business, is being able to maintain/afford health insurance. Same problem for anyone who doesn't have a corporate/government job. But you can get free or nearly free insurance by keeping a low income (with ACA) and almost zero assets (with Medicaid). There are plenty of Medicaid recipients that could save some money, but it would be foolish to do so since it would mean getting kicked off of medical insurance. If you're in the bottom 50%, you probably need to bridge the gap to the top 20-30% just to make up for the differential in health insurance costs. When you factor in SNAP, discounted utility rates, section 8 type housing, and EITC, these all act as a huge disincentive for the poor/lower middle class to make otherwise good financial decisions. This framework keeps lots of people poor, costs the taxpayers (almost exclusively the rich by the way) more in the long run, and steers more of our economic activity under the table. 

 

This is a very good take.

[Sinbius]

7 minutes ago, cubsfan said:

 

This is a very good take.

That's a very bad take.

 

ChatGDP answered 48% to the question "what percentage of Americans work full time?" because it was looking at the entire U.S. population rather than just active workers...

 

The real answer is about 82% of all employed workers in the United States work full time...The remaining 18% work part time..

 

 

 

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Sinbius

[cubsfan]

16 hours ago, Red Lion said:

 If 50% of a society doesn't work, then they will have the most purchasing power when there's a stronger safety net. Meanwhile, it seems like a lot of the countries with great safety nets don't have as much opportunity for wealth creation from looking at the numbers you're presenting. 

 

As far as the median net worth, I feel like the health insurance setup in the USA probably plays the biggest role in this. The biggest obstacle (in the USA) to starting a business, is being able to maintain/afford health insurance. Same problem for anyone who doesn't have a corporate/government job. But you can get free or nearly free insurance by keeping a low income (with ACA) and almost zero assets (with Medicaid). There are plenty of Medicaid recipients that could save some money, but it would be foolish to do so since it would mean getting kicked off of medical insurance. If you're in the bottom 50%, you probably need to bridge the gap to the top 20-30% just to make up for the differential in health insurance costs. When you factor in SNAP, discounted utility rates, section 8 type housing, and EITC, these all act as a huge disincentive for the poor/lower middle class to make otherwise good financial decisions. This framework keeps lots of people poor, costs the taxpayers (almost exclusively the rich by the way) more in the long run, and steers more of our economic activity under the table. 

 

@Sinbius  I should have been more clear. I think this section was insightful - as we have tons of people, who have opportunity, but choose NOT to work because of INCENTIVES and therefore DO NOT build significant wealth. We see it in our big cities - living in Chicago I have seen it for years. IF the government will give me the basic things, I have plenty to eat, healthcare and a place to live - why work.

[Sinbius]

14 minutes ago, cubsfan said:

 

@Sinbius  I should have been more clear. I think this section was insightful - as we have tons of people, who have opportunity, but choose NOT to work because of INCENTIVES and therefore DO NOT build significant wealth. We see it in our big cities - living in Chicago I have seen it for years. IF the government will give me the basic things, I have plenty to eat, healthcare and a place to live - why work.

Most of these people  are women...are you saying the problem is women? (...just seeing if you fall for it...joking...  )

Edited 44 minutes ago by Sinbius

[LC]

16 hours ago, wabuffo said:

 

 

The disparity between mean and median makes the point here.

 

The US isn't a rich country - but it's top 1% of citizens certainly are the richest.

 

Or to tell a story: Bezos is filthy rich because millions of warehouse employees are forced to work thru hurricanes and tornadoes, his delivery drivers have to urinate in gatorade bottles, they're labeled contractors to avoid paying for healthcare and insurance, etc. etc. 

[Castanza]

3 minutes ago, LC said:

Or to tell a story: Bezos is filthy rich because millions of warehouse employees are forced to work thru hurricanes and tornadoes, his delivery drivers have to urinate in gatorade bottles, they're labeled contractors to avoid paying for healthcare and insurance, etc. etc. 

 

This is par for the course in the industry just saying. UPS and FedEx have both implemented positions for this insurance benefit. They all work in warehouses through storms and they all piss in Gatorade bottles. 

 

When I made 80k/yr working at UPS full time while finishing school I pissed in many Gatorade bottles and also Ohio corn fields. Always made sure to carry a roll of TP as well (advice of the senior drivers). Not always easy to find a bathroom when your out in the middle of nowhere and making a 20-30min deviation off route to get to a bathroom does little to improve your day as you're only going home once your truck is empty. Honestly, had some memerable pisses looking over a corn field with an Ohio sunset . I also drove 10mph for an entire day driving through snow, sleet, and rain getting absolutely soaked and frozen to the bone many many times all so customer A could get their Pottery Barn kids bunk bed on time. Some jobs are tough. I'll hate on Bezos as much as the next guy....but he also started in his warehouse and used a skid as a desk for many years before he became successful. But to our earlier corporatocracy point, some things at the upper levels are certainly out of line with the bottom feeders. 

[SharperDingaan]

The reality is that if you are poor, your quality of life will still be a lot better in a NA/Europe, than it would be almost everywhere else in the world; migration occurs for a reason. Thereafter, it's just comparing one sh1tehole to another ; nobody wants to be in either of them.

 

The 'American Dream' isn't just the opportunity to bootstrap; it's also the greater social mobility, and diminished class rigidity vs other parts of the world (UK, India, etc.). Rapidly diminishing as the rich get richer, class divisions become more rigid, and AI takes away many of the time-tested bootstrap 'rungs' of earlier times.

 

Deaths in WWI and WWII greatly thinned out the class ranks, the Titanic removing many in a single sinking; that culling, creating new opportunity, that 80 years on ... is largely done. Today, for many in the middle class, the more practical solution is to work in one place, and retire in another  ..... the move to NYC in your late 20's, leave in your mid 30's.

 

SD

 

[cubsfan]

28 minutes ago, Sinbius said:

Most of these people  are women...are you saying the problem is women? (...just seeing if you fall for it...joking...  )

 

Make sure you leave out the most important detail @Sinbius - women on welfare can't be married lest they lose plenty of payments. Particularly a problem in the black community, that before the Lyndon Johnson administration, had a 70% "father in the home" stat.   Today, after the implementation of Welfare payment - 25%.  The incentive is to NOT be married if you are in poverty.  Hence, much of the black community has imploded.

 

 

[73 Reds]

3 minutes ago, SharperDingaan said:

The reality is that if you are poor, your quality of life will still be a lot better in a NA/Europe, than it would be almost everywhere else in the world; migration occurs for a reason. Thereafter, it's just comparing one sh1tehole to another ; nobody wants to be in either of them.

 

The 'American Dream' isn't just the opportunity to bootstrap; it's also the greater social mobility, and diminished class rigidity vs other parts of the world (UK, India, etc.). Rapidly diminishing as the rich get richer, class divisions become more rigid, and AI takes away many of the time-tested bootstrap 'rungs' of earlier times.

 

Deaths in WWI and WWII greatly thinned out the class ranks, the Titanic removing many in a single sinking; that culling, creating new opportunity, that 80 years on ... is largely done. Today, for many in the middle class, the more practical solution is to work in one place, and retire in another  ..... the move to NYC in your late 20's, leave in your mid 30's.

 

SD

 

+1  The main issue is that folks in rich countries have choices.  People in poor countries do not.