Bone-chilling kidnapping-attempt story

[Liberty]

 

Something a bit different, but I thought this first hand-account was worth sharing:

 

This is the most traumatizing thing that's ever happened to me. I have never told most people about this and I want to get the word out to other women about how easily this can happen, how quickly you can be caught off guard, and how even safe places can have predators.

 

It was terrifyingly similar to the actual movie Taken, but it happened in Austin, Tx. There is a very popular bar district downtown here, it's like a strip and super busy with college kids. I was 21 years old and I was out with my husband and 4 of his friends (all guys). So it was me and 5 decent sized men and this still happened.

 

We were all out drinking and having a great time. I had stopped on the busy street in front of one of the bars to talk to a door guy I knew, and my husband and the guys walked off in front of me. I had just said bye to the door guy and I was trailing behind the guys by about 15 feet. I was noticeably drunk, I was stumbling a bit. I'm a small woman, 90 lbs. Suddenly a car pulls over next to me and rolls down the window, it's a charismatic and good-looking guy in his 20s. He goes "Hey! I'm your uber! Get in" and unlocks the door. I looked over and felt ever-so-slightly off and went "No, I didn't call an uber" and kept walking. The car started rolling along next to me and the guy is saying through the window "No you didn't call, your friend called. We're here to pick you up. Get in." And I stopped walking, for the slightest second, and glanced to the car with a funny face. By that point I knew it was weird. It was already happening so fast, maybe 20 seconds went by so far. As soon as my eyes landed on the car, the driver turned to the backseat and said something fast in another language. The backdoor flies open and there are 2 other guys sitting there, about his same age, and they are all eastern-european (maybe greek?) with accents. My eyes went wide and the guys lunged forward, grabbed me by the waist and yanked me into the car. I was gone and in the car in under a second. I screamed in the loudest, most blood curdling way I could muster, NOOOOOOOO. My husband's best friend about 15 feet ahead hears me first, stops dead in his tracks and starts bolting towards me. The driver starts driving right away and the guys in the back try slamming the door behind me.

 

They had my wrists but I stuck my leg between the car and the door right before he tried to slam it, so it bounced off my leg and my husband's best friend grabs the door. Then they pulled my leg in and were able to shut the door and lock it.

 

I'm screaming, they're driving away. The rest of my group is running to us, the bouncer we were in front of comes running to me, and him and husband's best friend run after the car a few feet and yank me out of the still open window by my arms, while the car is still moving. I'm still screaming and kicking. On my way out of the car I kick the driver in the chest. They sped away, turned and were gone.

 

I'm crying. My husband is crying. The bouncer calls the police to report it. It's a whole scene. I left immediately, I rushed home in a panic and didn't stay around for the report. Don't know if anything ever happened with it. I never gave them my information. I was honestly so traumatized and in a state of shock that I never did anything or told anyone else. My friends that were with me (and my husband primarily) struggled with tremendous guilt for a long time. Nobody felt like they reacted fast enough, or harsh enough, or just that they let me lag behind at all. It changed all of us forever and I'm still terrified of being anywhere alone and of being taken.

 

I was 21 and I was basically kidnapped. There were a few seconds I was completely locked in the car and they were driving off, holding me tightly and restraining my limbs. They were talking a foreign language and I knew in that moment 100% that I would be trafficked and thought it would be the last time I ever saw my husband or my friends.

 

It was a perfectly normal night in a well-lit, busy, decent area of town and I was with a group of men who would've protected me. And they pounced on me immediately because they thought I was alone.

 

Be extremely wary of cab drivers and people claiming they are uber and lyft when you are out. Always confirm on the app that someone is your driver, and never stand too close to cars when you are on the sidewalk. I know that last one may seem paranoid, but if you are in a vulnerable position (I was drunk, dressed sexy, seemingly alone outside of a club), you need to be extremely wary of your surroundings and how quickly the unexpected can happen.

 

Please be careful. Please be safe. Please report anything suspicious. Be vigilant.

 

Via @YoloCapMgmt

[alwaysinvert]

No outside confirmation of story beyond forum post:

 

The bouncer calls the police to report it. It's a whole scene. I left immediately, I rushed home in a panic and didn't stay around for the report. Don't know if anything ever happened with it. I never gave them my information. I was honestly so traumatized and in a state of shock that I never did anything or told anyone else.

 

Also no date and time to cross-check with any police database or media trail.

 

Call to action with a very potent emotional appeal and anchored in people's everyday life situations:

 

Be extremely wary of cab drivers and people claiming they are uber and lyft when you are out. Always confirm on the app that someone is your driver, and never stand too close to cars when you are on the sidewalk. I know that last one may seem paranoid, but if you are in a vulnerable position (I was drunk, dressed sexy, seemingly alone outside of a club), you need to be extremely wary of your surroundings and how quickly the unexpected can happen.

 

Also posted on a subreddit where this kind of story is like catnip. The implication of the story seems to be that this is an organized, premeditated thing that this "gang of eastern europeans" does repeatedly. Are there any other reports of similar events in the media or to the police?

 

I'd stay very skeptical of this story until further evidence comes out in support of it.

[Liberty]

Yeah, it could be fake. It's a story shared on the internet. What's your point? I'm not saying pass a law based on it. I'm sharing it for exactly what it is, just like when someone on this forum shares a story about their lives and I might no ask for police records of it.

 

Human trafficking is real. Gang rapes are real.

 

If someone is sharing an experience under an anonymous account, do you think they're going to give an exact date and police record so they are immediately identified and doxxed and harassed by the hordes of 4chan trolls on the internet?

 

I didn't take it as a generalized thing against eastern europeans or taxi/uber drivers, just as someone recounting their own specific experience. Would it have been better for you if it was the fabled white van full of dudes with NYC accents?

[alwaysinvert]

Yeah, it could be fake. It's a story shared on the internet. What's your point?

 

That it does not sound credible, obviously. If there were multiple women randomly nabbed outside of night clubs in order to be trafficked, there would be a media frenzy. But there's no such thing. There's a story posted to a subreddit heavily dedicated towards outrage content.

 

Would it have been better for you if it was the fabled white van full of dudes with NYC accents?

 

No.

[Liberty]

Yeah, it could be fake. It's a story shared on the internet. What's your point?

 

That it does not sound credible, obviously. If there were multiple women randomly nabbed outside of night clubs in order to be trafficked, there would be a media frenzy. But there's no such thing. There's a story posted to a subreddit heavily dedicated towards outrage content.

 

You're saying something different. I'm not saying it's common, or that we can know it was trafficking and not just rape or something else (she's saying what she thinks it was, doesn't mean it's right). But I know that people disappear and it doesn't always make the media, often because we don't know what happened, especially if it's not blondes...

 

Would it have been better for you if it was the fabled white van full of dudes with NYC accents?

 

No.

 

The person who posted this, who's also a member of this forum, wrote:

 

https://twitter.com/YoloCapMgmt/status/1023055681815900161

 

"Scary stuff for women to be mindful of. Seems like a low probability event but I know a couple people (including myself) who were snatched as young kids. https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/92hu6m/i_was_almost_takentrafficked_in_austin_tx/"

 

Do you want to see their police report too?

[alwaysinvert]

You're saying something different. I'm not saying it's common, or that we can know it was trafficking and not just rape or something else (she's saying what she thinks it was, doesn't mean it's right). But I know that people disappear and it doesn't always make the media, often because we don't know what happened, especially if it's not blondes...

 

I was answering your question - the story doesn't sound credible. That doesn't mean rapes or trafficking or kidnapping never happen. Duh. It means the story sounded off to me and I listed some of the reasons why. Telling the statistically likely story of trafficking and stranger rape is mundane - its' a story about drug addiction and social misery at the bottom of society. But that doesn't give many upvotes from middle-class internet strangers because there's way less emotional pull there for them.

 

Do you want to see their police report too?

 

Not really, since I know nothing beyond the tweet. There's nothing there to elicit skepticism from me. I have no trouble believing that a victim of kidnapping finds a story of an attempted kidnapping compelling. See how that works? I update based on my evaluation of the information at hand.

[Liberty]

The pattern that I'm seeing is the "oh, they're just looking for attention" which has been said of women talking about these kinds of things forever. We've recently seen just how frequent what they were talking about was with Trump/Weinstein/Cosby/that doctor for the US gymnastics olympics team/etc.

 

I'm NOT saying that people should be afraid of kidnappings as something statistically likely (probably more likely if you're a pretty 20yo drunk woman rather than a 40yo man, though), but it's likely that someone traumatized by an attempt would end her post with "be careful out there about people pretending to be uber drivers".

 

Your objections of no date and police records for an anonymous post don't make sense. It wouldn't be anonymous otherwise. And if you post anonymously with a throwaway reddit account, what attention are you getting exactly? I know we have intuition about how likely these things should be and when we hear about them frequently it sounds fake, but the internet is a big place and if millions of people converge on reddit, there's going to be a ton of unlikely stories that are true.

 

And how do you share something that happened to you like that WITHOUT looking like you want attention? It's a catch 22 and people can always shoot you down and disregard you with no reason... So these objections are not good enough for me. Doesn't mean you have to believe everything you read, it's a judgement call, but if I think "assume this story happened for sure, how would it be written differently than it is now by a traumatized person trying to stay anonymous" and I don't see too much.

 

I don't know what happened or not, or if it's fake, but I don't agree with what you call red flags. If she really was attacked by guys speaking another language, is she supposed to not mention it because people will say she's just trying to incite against foreigners? If they really said they were an uber, should she not say it because... But then you'd probably say it wasn't detailed enough to sound credible. With that kind of thinking you can try to tear down any story, real or not, and end up never believing anything that isn't convenient to you, just like people didn't believe women being sexually harassed for so long.

 

So I just posted it as something that I think probably happened, and if anyone can point to a red flag more specific than yours, I'm totally willing to change my mind. I'm just explaining why I disagree with you on these.

 

Here's a current story of disappearance, and I don't know what happened there either, but it does happen (or maybe she just ran away or had an accident or whatever):

 

https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/26/us/missing-university-of-iowa-student-mollie-tibbetts/index.html

[onyx1]

A 90lb woman has been dragged, head-first, into the back seat of a car by two strange men.  With her legs still outside the car, she is struggling and screaming for her life. 

 

Despite the chaos she is able to make a very nuanced observation:

 

"My husband's best friend about 15 feet ahead hears me first, stops dead in his tracks and starts bolting towards me."

 

Red flag.

[alwaysinvert]

The pattern that I'm seeing is the "oh, they're just looking for attention" which has been said of women talking about these kinds of things forever. We've recently seen just how frequent what they were talking about was with Trump/Weinstein/Cosby/that doctor for the US gymnastics olympics team/etc.

 

I'm NOT saying that people should be afraid of kidnappings as something statistically likely (probably more likely if you're a pretty 20yo drunk woman rather than a 40yo man, though), but it's likely that someone traumatized by an attempt would end her post with "be careful out there about people pretending to be uber drivers".

 

Your objections of no date and police records for an anonymous post don't make sense. It wouldn't be anonymous otherwise. And if you post anonymously with a throwaway reddit account, what attention are you getting exactly? I know we have intuition about how likely these things should be and when we hear about them frequently it sounds fake, but the internet is a big place and if millions of people converge on reddit, there's going to be a ton of unlikely stories that are true.

 

And how do you share something that happened to you like that WITHOUT looking like you want attention? It's a catch 22 and people can always shoot you down and disregard you with no reason... So these objections are not good enough for me. Doesn't mean you have to believe everything you read, it's a judgement call, but if I think "assume this story happened for sure, how would it be written differently than it is now by a traumatized person trying to stay anonymous" and I don't see too much.

 

I don't know what happened or not, or if it's fake, but I don't agree with what you call red flags. If she really was attacked by guys speaking another language, is she supposed to not mention it because people will say she's just trying to incite against foreigners? If they really said they were an uber, should she not say it because... But then you'd probably say it wasn't detailed enough to sound credible. With that kind of thinking you can try to tear down any story, real or not, and end up never believing anything that isn't convenient to you, just like people didn't believe women being sexually harassed for so long.

 

So I just posted it as something that I think probably happened, and if anyone can point to a red flag more specific than yours, I'm totally willing to change my mind. I'm just explaining why I disagree with you on these.

 

Here's a current story of disappearance, and I don't know what happened there either, but it does happen (or maybe she just ran away or had an accident or whatever):

 

https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/26/us/missing-university-of-iowa-student-mollie-tibbetts/index.html

 

You have a presupposition that there is even a woman to "believe in" behind this account. We have no idea if there is even that. But I'm glad the countdown to Trump and Weinstein being mentioned didn't get very far.

 

My objection wasn't to a poster not giving doxxing info, quite obivously. It was to point out that this story is conveniently completely uncheckable - by design - even in theory. Someone made a police report (not her) and she never gave her name at all to any officials. Why didn't the bouncer ask for her name as he was calling when she was still present? Why didn't police come to down to the club? They come for all kinds of minor happenings at night clubs and they usually come very quickly. Why would the bouncer allow them to leave before police arrived? Also, nobody out of her gang of five people thought this odd at any point in the following minutes, days, weeks? Yeah, this is unbelievable, sorry.

 

Also, if the club in question was named somebody could easily check this by calling the owner and asking for such an incident, without anyone risking a dox at all (since the owner doesn't know her identity). Very simple.

[rkbabang]

I think I was almost car jacked once when I was younger, about 19 or 20. I stopped at a red light and suddenly my passenger side door opens and some guy starts getting in. Luckily I was the first car at the light, so I just gunned it  through the intersection (Light was still red but traffic was light). He already had one leg in my car and went flying. I saw him rolling on the pavement in my rear view mirror.  I never reported it to anyone, but I started locking my car doors when I drove.

[SharperDingaan]

"It was terrifyingly similar to the actual movie Taken. I was 21 years old and I was out with my husband and 4 of his friends (all guys).

We were all out drinking and having a great time. I was noticeably drunk, I was stumbling a bit. I'm a small woman, 90 lbs. My husband's best friend about 15 feet ahead hears me first, stops dead in his tracks and starts bolting towards me. "

 

In the real world people don't refer to movies. Additionally, when was the last time you saw a married 21 year old (even in Austin)?

And have you ever come accross a drunk drinker who knew he/she was noticeably drunk - yet was still aware enough of their surroundings to notice the friend, but NOT the supposed immediately rising danger right next to him/her?

 

It indicates targeting by an incompetent author.

 

SD

 

[Liberty]

A 90lb woman has been dragged, head-first, into the back seat of a car by two strange men.  With her legs still outside the car, she is struggling and screaming for her life. 

 

Despite the chaos she is able to make a very nuanced observation:

 

"My husband's best friend about 15 feet ahead hears me first, stops dead in his tracks and starts bolting towards me."

 

Red flag.

 

You don't think they all talked about what happened afterwards? Or maybe you're imagining her writing this as it happens?

[Liberty]

"It was terrifyingly similar to the actual movie Taken. I was 21 years old and I was out with my husband and 4 of his friends (all guys).

We were all out drinking and having a great time. I was noticeably drunk, I was stumbling a bit. I'm a small woman, 90 lbs. My husband's best friend about 15 feet ahead hears me first, stops dead in his tracks and starts bolting towards me. "

 

In the real world people don't refer to movies. Additionally, when the last time you saw a married 21 year old (even in Austin)?

And have you ever come accross a drunk drinker who knew he/she was noticeably drunk - yet was still aware enough of their surroundings to notice the friend, but NOT the supposed immediately rising danger right next to him/her?

 

It indicates targeting by an incompetent author.

 

SD

 

::)

[Liberty]

You have a presupposition that there is even a woman to "believe in" behind this account. We have no idea if there is even that. But I'm glad the countdown to Trump and Weinstein being mentioned didn't get very far.

 

My objection wasn't to a poster not giving doxxing info, quite obivously. It was to point out that this story is conveniently completely uncheckable - by design - even in theory. Someone made a police report (not her) and she never gave her name at all to any officials. Why didn't the bouncer ask for her name as he was calling when she was still present? Why didn't police come to down to the club? They come for all kinds of minor happenings at night clubs and they usually come very quickly. Why would the bouncer allow them to leave before police arrived? Also, nobody out of her gang of five people thought this odd at any point in the following minutes, days, weeks? Yeah, this is unbelievable, sorry.

 

Also, if the club in question was named somebody could easily check this by calling the owner and asking for such an incident, without anyone risking a dox at all (since the owner doesn't know her identity). Very simple.

 

I love it when people go "things should have happened the way I imagine it, and it didn't, therefore it's not true".

 

That's not how life works. I could tell you a bunch of stuff that happened to me or friends of mine that don't fit neatly into "what should've happened" or "what usually happens" and yet it's true stuff.

 

The pattern I'm noticing is of a huge double standard with these kinds of stories. If some random dude online tells a story of almost being robbed and maybe killed or badly hurt by a bunch of guys and getting away or whatever, it's like, "oh man, glad you're ok, that sucks", but if a woman tells a story of almost being attacked/raped/etc, it's suddenly the Spanish inquisition and none of it is credible because all of a sudden everybody's an expert in how real stories should be told.

 

I just shared a story I saw for what it is. I'm not asking you to make an investment decision based on it. I don't know if it's true, but I find the opposition to it to be pretty weak, yet along predictable lines.

[clutch]

I just shared a story I saw for what it is. I'm not asking you to make an investment decision based on it. I don't know if it's true, but I find the opposition to it to be pretty weak, yet along predictable lines.

 

He was also just saying that it's fake, isn't he?

[rkbabang]

You have a presupposition that there is even a woman to "believe in" behind this account. We have no idea if there is even that. But I'm glad the countdown to Trump and Weinstein being mentioned didn't get very far.

 

My objection wasn't to a poster not giving doxxing info, quite obivously. It was to point out that this story is conveniently completely uncheckable - by design - even in theory. Someone made a police report (not her) and she never gave her name at all to any officials. Why didn't the bouncer ask for her name as he was calling when she was still present? Why didn't police come to down to the club? They come for all kinds of minor happenings at night clubs and they usually come very quickly. Why would the bouncer allow them to leave before police arrived? Also, nobody out of her gang of five people thought this odd at any point in the following minutes, days, weeks? Yeah, this is unbelievable, sorry.

 

Also, if the club in question was named somebody could easily check this by calling the owner and asking for such an incident, without anyone risking a dox at all (since the owner doesn't know her identity). Very simple.

 

I love it when people go "things should have happened the way I imagine it, and it didn't, therefore it's not true".

 

That's not how life works. I could tell you a bunch of stuff that happened to me or friends of mine that don't fit neatly into "what should've happened" or "what usually happens" and yet it's true stuff.

 

The pattern I'm noticing is of a huge double standard with these kinds of stories. If some random dude online tells a story of almost being robbed and maybe killed or badly hurt by a bunch of guys and getting away or whatever, it's like, "oh man, glad you're ok, that sucks", but if a woman tells a story of almost being attacked/raped/etc, it's suddenly the Spanish inquisition and none of it is credible because all of a sudden everybody's an expert in how real stories should be told.

 

I just shared a story I saw for what it is. I'm not asking you to make an investment decision based on it. I don't know if it's true, but I find the opposition to it to be pretty weak, yet along predictable lines.

 

+1. People watch way too much TV. Most crimes are never reported, and most crimes that are reported are never investigated. There was no one missing or kill d here. The police took a report then went back to writing speeding tickets and looking for drugs.

[Liberty]

A couple more comments by the original poster of the story:

 

Q: How did you deal with it?

 

A: I didn’t. I went home and never mentioned it again. My husband completely withdrew and 2 weeks later told me he’s haunted by what could’ve happened and he didn’t stop it. He wasn’t even one of the two people who rescued me. So he felt extremely guilty and I couldn’t even help him much cause I was in complete denial mode

 

The bouncer who got me out of the car called the manager who called the police and filed the report. They said they would pull security footage and see but no one was sure if it could be seen. Because when the car pulled up it pulled behind another car, when it pulled away and they pulled me inside, they were driving and the parked car blocks the view of me being pulled in (which is also why no one saw at first, until they heard me scream).

I regret everyday not going to the police and telling everything I remembered that night. I was so scared and in shock I went home and never mentioned it again and I feel panicked when I think of it. Someone commented above I could still report this so that’s what I will do.

[SharperDingaan]

You have a presupposition that there is even a woman to "believe in" behind this account. We have no idea if there is even that. But I'm glad the countdown to Trump and Weinstein being mentioned didn't get very far.

 

My objection wasn't to a poster not giving doxxing info, quite obivously. It was to point out that this story is conveniently completely uncheckable - by design - even in theory. Someone made a police report (not her) and she never gave her name at all to any officials. Why didn't the bouncer ask for her name as he was calling when she was still present? Why didn't police come to down to the club? They come for all kinds of minor happenings at night clubs and they usually come very quickly. Why would the bouncer allow them to leave before police arrived? Also, nobody out of her gang of five people thought this odd at any point in the following minutes, days, weeks? Yeah, this is unbelievable, sorry.

 

Also, if the club in question was named somebody could easily check this by calling the owner and asking for such an incident, without anyone risking a dox at all (since the owner doesn't know her identity). Very simple.

 

I love it when people go "things should have happened the way I imagine it, and it didn't, therefore it's not true".

 

That's not how life works. I could tell you a bunch of stuff that happened to me or friends of mine that don't fit neatly into "what should've happened" or "what usually happens" and yet it's true stuff.

 

The pattern I'm noticing is of a huge double standard with these kinds of stories. If some random dude online tells a story of almost being robbed and maybe killed or badly hurt by a bunch of guys and getting away or whatever, it's like, "oh man, glad you're ok, that sucks", but if a woman tells a story of almost being attacked/raped/etc, it's suddenly the Spanish inquisition and none of it is credible because all of a sudden everybody's an expert in how real stories should be told.

 

I just shared a story I saw for what it is. I'm not asking you to make an investment decision based on it. I don't know if it's true, but I find the opposition to it to be pretty weak, yet along predictable lines.

 

The reality is that societies do not treat people equally, and it is women who usually bear the brunt.

We know that if you can successfully cower someone by continuously beating them down, undermining, or discrediting; you obtain a type of immunity. Any kind of serious accusation the beaten-down makes, will not be believed; and the more serious the accusation, the LESS believed it will be. Hides a lot of crimes.

 

'Me too' and 'times-up' are long overdue - and just beginning.

It is far harder to pick off cowered individuals when they are in groups, and far harder to defend against accusations of the same thing by multiple independent women - all at the same time. Even if you're rich and famous.

 

Example, Donald Trump.

Currently on wife #3, 12 hookers we know of, and countless other gropes - yet still president?

So far he's been able to individually either intimidate, or pay the women off. But what happens if/when they eventually call him out as a group, and the Donald also liked to brag? And if on the visits to Moscow he also couldn't keep it in his pants?

 

Al Capone eventually went down to tax evasion, Trump eventually going down to 'Me too' doesn't seem that far-fetched.

The law appiles to everyone (including presidents), and any release of Moscow pictures just makes the case for removal stronger. An elegant 'face saving' solution that would also entrench 'Me too", and garner a lot of votes. Concede on the Russia Investigation, and the GORP will give you Trumps sex related resignation instead? No damaging admissions required?

 

SD

   

   

[rukawa]

I don't know if it's true, but I find the opposition to it to be pretty weak, yet along predictable lines.

 

Its not my attention on this thread to be an asshole here or mean. There is a definite predictable pattern on these stories but its goes both ways. Here are some threads which exemplify it:

 

http://www.cornerofberkshireandfairfax.ca/forum/general-discussion/this-girl-is-really-amazing!/msg226754/#msg226754

http://www.cornerofberkshireandfairfax.ca/forum/personal-finance/the-28-year-old-retiree/

 

The pattern here is:

1) Someone posts a somewhat unusual story relating to a woman (or something else)

2) Board strongly doubts the story

3) Posters claim the board is being sexist and only being overly doubtful because they are women

 

There are a few possibilities here:

1) The board is sexist and overly skeptical of women

2) Society and some posters on this board tend to be overly credulous regarding stories the fit a certain typical feminist type narrative or just generally credulous when it come to stories that fit their already pre-existing beliefs

 

The one things I would note is that the skeptics on this board generally don't have a bad record either regarding women or other things. They are often right to doubt. Emotionally if you identify with the story it doesn't feel good to have them attacked but some detachment here is necessary. I know there is often an emotional charge to these arguments because when someone attacks something associated with a belief you have...you end up feeling like they are attacking you.

 

I've been guilty of not listening to the board in these situations and its definitely been detrimental to me. Let me catalog a good example which I'm embarrassed about. I'm the poster that posted the 28 year old retiree thread. I definitely believed the board was being overly skeptical and negative. And the story connected with my pre-existing prejudices because I am a huge fan of the concept of early retirement. I bought two books off her site based on her recommendation which were terrible. I realized but never said that writser was right. I'll post a few comments from writser:

 

Writser, why are you so negative about these gurus?

 

Skepticism is my default setting when people try to sell me things,because I am frugal. And given the affiliate links, books and seminars on most of the ERE blogs these gurus are definitely trying to sell me something.

 

Whatever. Just another zero content clickbait early retirement blog. If you use *this link* to open a brokerage account and *this link* to buy a few books and *this link* for webhosting and *this link* to book a hotel you'll soon be a millionaire (read: I'll soon be a millionaire). All headlines are straight from the buzzfeed generator. Lots of hype, zero content. Just specifically engineered to make you click.

 

The only two ways to make money!

The two metrics you must track!

The secret to how blogging really makes money!

Seven hidden gems to kickstart your journey to early retirement!

One trick to combat social pressure!

The 5 minute plan that could save you $5000!

How to write a $3000 letter!

 

Only thing that is missing is a sign-up form for a new cryptocurrency ICO ..

 

Spoiler: you don't get rich with tricks, secrets and hidden gems (unless you can sell them to gullible people). Ignore & move on.

 

I think writser nailed it.

 

Writser.....you were right!!! I didn't lose much money here but I did learn an important lesson!! And Rb, you were right. I should have realize what I was being sold and the trick that was being played.

[clutch]

Emotionally if you identify with the story it doesn't feel good to have them attacked but some detachment here is necessary. I know there is often an emotional charge to these arguments because when someone attacks something associated with a belief you have...you end up feeling like they are attacking you.

 

+1

 

Lately I've become really cognizant of this tendency and how detrimental it can be to people (often myself as well). At my work especially I realized how much time and meetings are wasted because people get attached to their ideas emotionally and end up arguing about points that are so insignificant. And you can see those people losing respect from peers over time. Nowadays I just try to step away from such occurrences.

 

In some regard, I think this tendency also explains the erratic behaviors of Trump or even Musk on twitter... And of course many people on internet forums.

[Liberty]

I don't know if it's true, but I find the opposition to it to be pretty weak, yet along predictable lines.

 

Its not my attention on this thread to be an asshole here or mean. There is a definite predictable pattern on these stories but its goes both ways. Here are some threads which exemplify it:

 

http://www.cornerofberkshireandfairfax.ca/forum/general-discussion/this-girl-is-really-amazing!/msg226754/#msg226754

http://www.cornerofberkshireandfairfax.ca/forum/personal-finance/the-28-year-old-retiree/

 

The pattern here is:

1) Someone posts a somewhat unusual story relating to a woman (or something else)

2) Board strongly doubts the story

3) Posters claim the board is being sexist and only being overly doubtful because they are women

 

There are a few possibilities here:

1) The board is sexist and overly skeptical of women

2) Society and some posters on this board tend to be overly credulous regarding stories the fit a certain typical feminist type narrative or just generally credulous when it come to stories that fit their already pre-existing beliefs

 

The one things I would note is that the skeptics on this board generally don't have a bad record either regarding women or other things. They are often right to doubt. Emotionally if you identify with the story it doesn't feel good to have them attacked but some detachment here is necessary. I know there is often an emotional charge to these arguments because when someone attacks something associated with a belief you have...you end up feeling like they are attacking you.

 

I've been guilty of not listening to the board in these situations and its definitely been detrimental to me. Let me catalog a good example which I'm embarrassed about. I'm the poster that posted the 28 year old retiree thread. I definitely believed the board was being overly skeptical and negative. And the story connected with my pre-existing prejudices because I am a huge fan of the concept of early retirement. I bought two books off her site based on her recommendation which were terrible. I realized but never said that writser was right. I'll post a few comments from writser:

 

Writser, why are you so negative about these gurus?

 

Skepticism is my default setting when people try to sell me things,because I am frugal. And given the affiliate links, books and seminars on most of the ERE blogs these gurus are definitely trying to sell me something.

 

Whatever. Just another zero content clickbait early retirement blog. If you use *this link* to open a brokerage account and *this link* to buy a few books and *this link* for webhosting and *this link* to book a hotel you'll soon be a millionaire (read: I'll soon be a millionaire). All headlines are straight from the buzzfeed generator. Lots of hype, zero content. Just specifically engineered to make you click.

 

The only two ways to make money!

The two metrics you must track!

The secret to how blogging really makes money!

Seven hidden gems to kickstart your journey to early retirement!

One trick to combat social pressure!

The 5 minute plan that could save you $5000!

How to write a $3000 letter!

 

Only thing that is missing is a sign-up form for a new cryptocurrency ICO ..

 

Spoiler: you don't get rich with tricks, secrets and hidden gems (unless you can sell them to gullible people). Ignore & move on.

 

I think writser nailed it.

 

Writser.....you were right!!! I didn't lose much money here but I did learn an important lesson!! And Rb, you were right. I should have realize what I was being sold and the trick that was being played.

 

It's called sample bias, or cherry picking in this case.

 

There are countless posts about men on this board, a lot of them turn out to be wrong or money losing, but you're not coming out "people post about men and they turn out to be wrong, here's two examples". Elizabeth Holmes says something about women, but Jacob Wohl or Martin Shkreli isn't seen as being about men...

 

I said over and over again that I don't know if the story is true and posted it as is. My problem is with the objections. I think they're weak, and part of a double-standard that isn't being applied evenly.

 

I live near the border of two canadian provinces. I see something happen all the time (on both sides, as a mirror image): People say that the drivers from the other province are bad drivers. The reason? Because if someone cuts you off or drives badly but they have a license plate from your province, you don't notice anything special and go "that's a bad driver". But if they have a plate from the other side, you go "that's a bad ontarian/quebec driver". And it happens over and over until you see a pattern and it seems like people from the other side constantly drive badly, because our brains don't count actual frequency, they just notice what stands out.

 

So there's countless examples all around the net and this forum of stories about men turing out to be untrue. And since women are just people, there's plenty of those too. But stories about women seem to stand out to you as saying something specifically about women. Maybe you ought to question that.

 

As for the quote from me, there's a lot more context to it that I got into at the time:

 

http://www.cornerofberkshireandfairfax.ca/forum/personal-finance/the-28-year-old-retiree/msg308379/#msg308379

http://www.cornerofberkshireandfairfax.ca/forum/personal-finance/the-28-year-old-retiree/msg308390/#msg308390

 

I'm not against being skeptical or whatever. This is a strawman. I'm against what I see as weak arguments. To me the story is in the "interesting, but I don't know if true" pile, like a lot of other stuff in life. I'm fine with putting things in the gray zone.

 

When I see people wanting to dismiss it outright, I look at their reasons, and in this case, find them to be weak and double-standards and things I don't get when I post similar things about men ("she didn't write it how I think she should've, there's no date and police record on this anonymous story, people don't make movie reference when telling the truth" (seriously, you know that out of 7 billion people nobody references movies when something movie-like happens to them?), etc). That's all I'm saying.

[Spekulatius]

If a story is interesting, engaging and well written, does it even matter if it is true or not?

[Liberty]

If a story is interesting, engaging and well written, does it even matter if it is true or not?

 

Of course it matters, reality always matters.

 

But if we can only post things that we are 100% sure are true and personally verified, 99.9% of posts on this forum, and on the internet as a whole, would vanish. It's fine to post something and say "I don't know if this is true but I think it was worth a read, take it for what it is". It also matters what the stakes are: I'd have a much higher threshold for posting health recommendations than for posting a random human interest story.

 

If we learn more about it later in either direction, we update our belief, but we don't have to put everything in the "I know it's 100% true" or "I know it's 100% false" bucket right away based on little info. Most things are somewhere in the middle.

 

And when you learn something later, it's like with investing, it's possible to have been right for the wrong reasons or vice versa. The people who have the right process were those who were calibrated well based on the evidence (or lack of) at the time, not those who gambled on red or black and were lucky to be shown right by facts that only came out later and that they didn't have at the time.

[wachtwoord]

I agree with the above. At the same time, stories shape society (whether true or not), that's what the whole "fake news" topic is about.

 

The thing with that is though, that people don't mind when it's news (or propaganda, depending on ones perspective) that fits their worldview. If you don't agree with it, it's fake news/propaganda if you do agree it's informative. We should all try to judge each potential fact we happen upon individually and assign it a probability rather than a binary true/false. The vast majority of the population is however unwilling or unable to do this: propaganda works.

[Liberty]

I agree with the above. At the same time, stories shape society (whether true or not), that's what the whole "fake news" topic is about.

 

The thing with that is though, that people don't mind when it's news (or propaganda, depending on ones perspective) that fits their worldview. If you don't agree with it, it's fake news/propaganda if you do agree it's informative. We should all try to judge each potential fact we happen upon individually and assign it a probability rather than a binary true/false. The vast majority of the population is however unwilling or unable to do this: propaganda works.

 

I agree.

 

If I had to put a probability on it being true with the info I have, it would be around 70%. but that's just based on priors + a few hundred words of writing, so of course it's a weakly held belief. I think there's always been a lot of stories like that that we never heard about before and were never otherwise reported, especially if it's a near-miss, but now with the internet, more are brought to attention because anyone can tell their story. There's fakes too, of course.

 

But I posted it as a mini-horror story, one event that happened to one person at one time. Just a "oh crap, imagine what that would be like". Just like when I read about anything else I haven't personally experienced, like marines on Peleliu or Rwanda genocide victims and perpetrators (Google "Night of the Machete") or sailing across the Atlantic, to broaden my mind to more than just my own experiences. You guys turned it into a congressional hearing.