Elon Musk...human? - Political

[lnofeisone]

On 2/21/2025 at 2:11 PM, cubsfan said:

 

Pretty funny actually that no one gives the man credit for the ungodly corruption, payoffs, and waste he is uncovering. That is what will be EPIC.

So far he canceled $8B of stuff on a $6T budget. I wouldn't call that epic.

 

I would call his latest tweet with 5 bullets that feds have to send somewhat epic. Lord knows his dumb tweet cost the taxpayers $16M+. Imagine doing it every week and he is creating $800B worth of waste. He is also opening USG to all sorts of labor liabilities, you know, a hostile work environment. I am terrified as to what this will look like when Dems win back House/Congress and/or WH. That pendulum is going to swing so wide in the other direction which is truly unhealthy for the country and incredibly challenging for businesses to navigate. 

[james22]

44 minutes ago, lnofeisone said:

How does this not amount as tax cuts for the rich? 

 

You can't cut the taxes of those who don't pay taxes.

[cubsfan]

9 hours ago, lnofeisone said:

So far he canceled $8B of stuff on a $6T budget. I wouldn't call that epic.

 

I would call his latest tweet with 5 bullets that feds have to send somewhat epic. Lord knows his dumb tweet cost the taxpayers $16M+. Imagine doing it every week and he is creating $800B worth of waste. He is also opening USG to all sorts of labor liabilities, you know, a hostile work environment. I am terrified as to what this will look like when Dems win back House/Congress and/or WH. That pendulum is going to swing so wide in the other direction which is truly unhealthy for the country and incredibly challenging for businesses to navigate. 

 

So I take it you don't believe there is massive amounts of waste in our federal government.

 

We can agree to disagree.

[Gregmal]

10 hours ago, lnofeisone said:

Also, zeroing out tips is a really tiny amount. it's about 10% of what SALT brings and not even a 1% change for the additional deficit.

 

That's because poor people don't really pay that much in taxes to begin with. In terms of actual dollars, it's pretty low to begin with. Which is a further reason the "tax cuts for the rich" narrative is disingenuous. They're really the only ones paying taxes in terms of %s. The middle class gets "screwed" the most in terms of lifestyle impairment caused by government, but if we want to get down to it, Trumps tax policies are really the only ones that have come close to sniffing out real tax policy improvement. Every time a democrat gets near policy it's one of two things, outright rob high earners, or raise taxes for everyone. No party, has ever really done anything but pick the pocket of self employed folks either, which would IMO be a common sense area to start if you really want to encourage folks to earn their way out. 

[73 Reds]

9 minutes ago, Gregmal said:

That's because poor people don't really pay that much in taxes to begin with. In terms of actual dollars, it's pretty low to begin with. Which is a further reason the "tax cuts for the rich" narrative is disingenuous. They're really the only ones paying taxes in terms of %s. The middle class gets "screwed" the most in terms of lifestyle impairment caused by government, but if we want to get down to it, Trumps tax policies are really the only ones that have come close to sniffing out real tax policy improvement. Every time a democrat gets near policy it's one of two things, outright rob high earners, or raise taxes for everyone. No party, has ever really done anything but pick the pocket of self employed folks either, which would IMO be a common sense area to start if you really want to encourage folks to earn their way out. 

I am reminded of Buffett's repeated laments of how little he [personally] pays in taxes yet when has he donated any additional money to the US Treasury?  Some people complain that Elon won't make a dent and other people complain he is cutting too much.  This tells me he is doing a fine job.  

[cubsfan]

3 minutes ago, 73 Reds said:

 Some people complain that Elon won't make a dent and other people complain he is cutting too much.  This tells me he is doing a fine job.  

 

Right - they have absolutely no idea how to handle this guy.

 

When you leave the fold like Tulsi, RFK, Joe Rogan and Elon - they just lose their minds.

[james22]

 

[lnofeisone]

4 hours ago, cubsfan said:

 

So I take it you don't believe there is massive amounts of waste in our federal government.

 

We can agree to disagree.

What, in your opinion, is a "massive amount of waste?" Put $ values on it. 

[lnofeisone]

3 hours ago, Gregmal said:

That's because poor people don't really pay that much in taxes to begin with. In terms of actual dollars, it's pretty low to begin with. Which is a further reason the "tax cuts for the rich" narrative is disingenuous. They're really the only ones paying taxes in terms of %s. The middle class gets "screwed" the most in terms of lifestyle impairment caused by government, but if we want to get down to it, Trumps tax policies are really the only ones that have come close to sniffing out real tax policy improvement. Every time a democrat gets near policy it's one of two things, outright rob high earners, or raise taxes for everyone. No party, has ever really done anything but pick the pocket of self employed folks either, which would IMO be a common sense area to start if you really want to encourage folks to earn their way out. 

I tend to agree with you that anytime dems touch the tax code, their MO is "everyone must suffer." By the same token, Trump's tax code modification doesn't do a thing to help the middle class. Anyone in the $70k-400k is getting hoses by him. Anyone under $70k gets some improvement but the impact is going to be tiny (as you noted, they don't really pay bulk of the taxes). Anyone over $400k will benefit at the expense of those in the middle. 

[lnofeisone]

3 hours ago, 73 Reds said:

I am reminded of Buffett's repeated laments of how little he [personally] pays in taxes yet when has he donated any additional money to the US Treasury?  Some people complain that Elon won't make a dent and other people complain he is cutting too much.  This tells me he is doing a fine job.  

 

In terms of $ value, Elon didn't cut all that much on the $6T. Show me wrong. I'm open to seeing it. The amount of misery he brought to the Federal workforce is extremely real. The amount of illegal things he has done is also extremely real. The amount of liability he opened Gov't to is extremely real. You can try arguing that Gov't has sovereign immunity, but our Gov't also waived it for labor issues. If/when this admin gets replaced, the sheer number of tax dollars that will go to pay for all the class actions will be ridiculous. Talk about a waste of tax dollars. 

 

Eventually, Democrats will figure this out, and the pendulum will swing hard in the other direction. Those of us who have businesses and make significant capital investments don't do well when there is this much unpredictability.

 

I can tell you that I've deferred multiple large projects, and my suppliers and a few others call me every week to see when it will be back on schedule. Now, maybe $100k of projects that I had in my pipeline isn't a big deal but I'm not the only person.

 

In my main line of work, the number of contracts from private organizations that I'm tracking that are getting delays and cancelations is growing by the day. I'm in the AI field, with 85%+ of my work centered on commercial non-government entities. 

 

3 hours ago, cubsfan said:

 

Right - they have absolutely no idea how to handle this guy.

 

When you leave the fold like Tulsi, RFK, Joe Rogan and Elon - they just lose their minds.

 

Handle this guy? This guy is breeding the likes of AOC, who will enter Congress and be just as unhinged as him, and the handling of this guy will be merciless. the next time dems win anything they'll have morality police whip you if you get someone's pronouns wrong. Everyone will wonder how we got there but it is "this guy (i.e., Elon)" that is the impetus. Oh the irony all around. jfc. 

[73 Reds]

5 minutes ago, lnofeisone said:

 

In terms of $ value, Elon didn't cut all that much on the $6T. Show me wrong. I'm open to seeing it. The amount of misery he brought to the Federal workforce is extremely real. The amount of illegal things he has done is also extremely real. The amount of liability he opened Gov't to is extremely real. You can try arguing that Gov't has sovereign immunity, but our Gov't also waived it for labor issues. If/when this admin gets replaced, the sheer number of tax dollars that will go to pay for all the class actions will be ridiculous. Talk about a waste of tax dollars. 

 

Eventually, Democrats will figure this out, and the pendulum will swing hard in the other direction. Those of us who have businesses and make significant capital investments don't do well when there is this much unpredictability.

 

I can tell you that I've deferred multiple large projects, and my suppliers and a few others call me every week to see when it will be back on schedule. Now, maybe $100k of projects that I had in my pipeline isn't a big deal but I'm not the only person.

 

In my main line of work, the number of contracts from private organizations that I'm tracking that are getting delays and cancelations is growing by the day. I'm in the AI field, with 85%+ of my work centered on commercial non-government entities. 

 

 

Handle this guy? This guy is breeding the likes of AOC, who will enter Congress and be just as unhinged as him, and the handling of this guy will be merciless. the next time dems win anything they'll have morality police whip you if you get someone's pronouns wrong. Everyone will wonder how we got there but it is "this guy (i.e., Elon)" that is the impetus. Oh the irony all around. jfc. 

<<In terms of $ value, Elon didn't cut all that much on the $6T>>

He's only been at it for 1 month.  Did he resign?

[cubsfan]

9 minutes ago, 73 Reds said:

<<In terms of $ value, Elon didn't cut all that much on the $6T>>

He's only been at it for 1 month.  Did he resign?

 

I was thinking the same thing. 30 days into the job and miracles are expected at the bottom line.

[lnofeisone]

So is he doing a fine job or did he just start? Anyway, obviously, this will play out as it will play out, and we'll get to judge it with hindsight in mind. 

[73 Reds]

4 minutes ago, lnofeisone said:

So is he doing a fine job or did he just start? Anyway, obviously, this will play out as it will play out, and we'll get to judge it with hindsight in mind. 

<<So is he doing a fine job or did he just start?>>  Seems to me, both.  Didn't realize they are mutually exclusive.

[lnofeisone]

4 hours ago, 73 Reds said:

<<So is he doing a fine job or did he just start?>>  Seems to me, both.  Didn't realize they are mutually exclusive.

It's also not mutually exclusive that he is wasting money by sending out tweets that cost $10M+ in wasted time to see who "has a pulse and two working neurons." There were hour-long gov't meetings to figure out what to do to respond to this email. Even Tulsi said to ignore it. This is on top of all the extra costs that are now being added to contractors to make sure cyber component of all the DOGE nonsense isn't leaking any more classified information. How are you all OK with this colossal waste of tax dollars? How are you OK with exposing gov't to all the labor-related liabilities? I'm gonna be so pissed when my tax dollars will go to pay settlement agreements for all the gov't workers. 

[DooDiligence]

[73 Reds]

12 hours ago, lnofeisone said:

It's also not mutually exclusive that he is wasting money by sending out tweets that cost $10M+ in wasted time to see who "has a pulse and two working neurons." There were hour-long gov't meetings to figure out what to do to respond to this email. Even Tulsi said to ignore it. This is on top of all the extra costs that are now being added to contractors to make sure cyber component of all the DOGE nonsense isn't leaking any more classified information. How are you all OK with this colossal waste of tax dollars? How are you OK with exposing gov't to all the labor-related liabilities? I'm gonna be so pissed when my tax dollars will go to pay settlement agreements for all the gov't workers. 

So you're OK with all the ridiculous allocations of your tax dollars now?  And you doh't care that many govt. workers are being paid to do ?????  IMO the status quo was unacceptable.  Bring on the challenges.  Any compromise will be an improvement.

[DooDiligence]

1 hour ago, 73 Reds said:

So you're OK with all the ridiculous allocations of your tax dollars now?  And you doh't care that many govt. workers are being paid to do ?????  IMO the status quo was unacceptable.  Bring on the challenges.  Any compromise will be an improvement.

 

Disingenuous argument, but I get that you don't see that.

[73 Reds]

1 minute ago, DooDiligence said:

 

Disingenuous argument, but I get that you don't see that.

How so?  I don't see black or white; there is a lot of gray.  If someone doesn't begin the process nothing will change.  Sorry you can't see that.  

[DooDiligence]

Just now, 73 Reds said:

How so?  I don't see black or white; there is a lot of gray.  If someone doesn't begin the process nothing will change.  Sorry you can't see that.  

 

Nope. Not gonna engage further. Bibi.

[73 Reds]

Just now, DooDiligence said:

 

Nope. Not gonna engage further. Bibi.

OK, then why choose to engage in the first place?  

[lnofeisone]

1 hour ago, 73 Reds said:

So you're OK with all the ridiculous allocations of your tax dollars now?  And you doh't care that many govt. workers are being paid to do ?????  IMO the status quo was unacceptable.  Bring on the challenges.  Any compromise will be an improvement.

You are now changing the goalposts. Elon is being wasteful and destructive. When Gov't checks and balances are restored - for example IGs are brought back - they will have a field day with this. It'll be millions of $s spent (wasted really because Elon can follow a process instead of trying to a wrecking ball) righting a lot of these wrongs.

 

And again, how many gov't workers are being paid to do [I assume you meant to question what they do]. Give me a number. Give $ amounts. No conjectures, just straight-up facts.

 

I am mindful of where my tax dollars go. I care that my tax dollars are not abused by overpaying farmers in the mid-west for their soybeans, just like I care that my tax dollars don't go to some non-profit that claims that peace in Palestine will improve our climate. I'm also not stupid to see that what Elon is doing is counterproductive.

 

 

[73 Reds]

2 minutes ago, lnofeisone said:

You are now changing the goalposts. Elon is being wasteful and destructive. When Gov't checks and balances are restored - for example IGs are brought back - they will have a field day with this. It'll be millions of $s spent (wasted really because Elon can follow a process instead of trying to a wrecking ball) righting a lot of these wrongs.

 

And again, how many gov't workers are being paid to do [I assume you meant to question what they do]. Give me a number. Give $ amounts. No conjectures, just straight-up facts.

 

I am mindful of where my tax dollars go. I care that my tax dollars are not abused by overpaying farmers in the mid-west for their soybeans, just like I care that my tax dollars don't go to some non-profit that claims that peace in Palestine will improve our climate. I'm also not stupid to see that what Elon is doing is counterproductive.

 

 

How about we have this same discussion after a year, when Elon & Co. will have had time to uncover what you or others may consider to be serious amounts of waste?  He is just getting started.  What truly is baffling is any suggestion that there is not massive amounts of waste, abuse and fraud in government spending.  Would you rather he merely poke around the edges?  Does anyone truly believe that deficits can continue to grow indefinitely without consequences or taxing people to oblivion?

[dwy000]

6 minutes ago, 73 Reds said:

How about we have this same discussion after a year, when Elon & Co. will have had time to uncover what you or others may consider to be serious amounts of waste?  He is just getting started.  What truly is baffling is any suggestion that there is not massive amounts of waste, abuse and fraud in government spending.  Would you rather he merely poke around the edges?  Does anyone truly believe that deficits can continue to grow indefinitely without consequences or taxing people to oblivion?

I don't think anyone is suggesting there isnt massive amounts of waste in government spend (just like most large corporates).  The question is more how best to deal with it.  Sending 20 year olds in who literally have no idea what the people there do and cutting entire departments will ultimately create more chaos and harm than savings.  Working with those departments to figure out how best to lop 10-20% of spend over the next 2 years is much more effective than culling half the group and waiting to see what breaks.

 

Even more head scratching is why, after going thru whatever necessary process to reduce spend to get a soaring debt in hand, you would turn around and give all that away in tax cuts. It seems to defeat the purpose. 

[73 Reds]

1 minute ago, dwy000 said:

I don't think anyone is suggesting there isnt massive amounts of waste in government spend (just like most large corporates).  The question is more how best to deal with it.  Sending 20 year olds in who literally have no idea what the people there do and cutting entire departments will ultimately create more chaos and harm than savings.  Working with those departments to figure out how best to lop 10-20% of spend over the next 2 years is much more effective than culling half the group and waiting to see what breaks.

 

Even more head scratching is why, after going thru whatever necessary process to reduce spend to get a soaring debt in hand, you would turn around and give all that away in tax cuts. It seems to defeat the purpose. 

You're bringing politics into the mix which is not relevant to the issue of govt. waste.  Until a month ago, nothing has been done.  Now we are engaged.  As I suggested to another poster, bring on any challenges.  The issues will be sorted out and hopefully compromise will prevail.  The status quo was unacceptable.  At least someone is making an effort.  The fact that you, or anyone does not like specific proposed cuts has nothing to do with the larger issue which few folks who are complaining want to address.