Do you think Bitcoin is a safe store of value?

[rkbabang]

Oh look... Bitcoin drops 20% in hours.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-29/wild-bitcoin-ride-erases-2-200-in-five-hours-after-record-rally

 

Feel the store of value.

 

Oh crap!  This is devastating. It's now only 20% above where it was last week.  I can't believe it.

 

[rb]

Oh look... Bitcoin drops 20% in hours.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-29/wild-bitcoin-ride-erases-2-200-in-five-hours-after-record-rally

 

Feel the store of value.

 

Oh crap!  This is devastating. It's now only 20% above where it was last week.  I can't believe it.

That may be true. But stores of value are not supposed to do that and this thread is about bitcoin as a store of value not how much money you've made on bitcoin.

[matts]

I admittedly know little (nothing?) about blockchain technology. Was a tongue-in-cheek comment ;)

 

I was referring to the blind faith in the government and the indirect condemnation of those exposed in the paradise papers (who are not criminals while those releasing the papers are).

 

What are you talking about? A tax resident of the US or Spain for example, not declaring their income that they hid offshore is against the law in that country, hence by definition said person would be a criminal. I know that does not apply to ALL named in the Panama Papers, but would apply to some (many?).

 

 

Based on your attitude towards the government and taxes, the IRS should be auditing you every single year :P something tells me they would find some interesting discrepancies.

 

 

[writser]

That may be true. But stores of value are not supposed to do that and this thread is about bitcoin as a store of value not how much money you've made on bitcoin.

 

Not saying I disagree but:

 

[rkbabang]

Oh look... Bitcoin drops 20% in hours.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-29/wild-bitcoin-ride-erases-2-200-in-five-hours-after-record-rally

 

Feel the store of value.

 

Oh crap!  This is devastating. It's now only 20% above where it was last week.  I can't believe it.

That may be true. But stores of value are not supposed to do that and this thread is about bitcoin as a store of value not how much money you've made on bitcoin.

 

Bitcoin isn't a store of value.  It may become a store of value.  There is a huge difference.  If it evolves into a store of value to replace gold it will have to be worth trillions and it will be volatile as all holy hell getting there.

 

[wachtwoord]

I admittedly know little (nothing?) about blockchain technology. Was a tongue-in-cheek comment ;)

 

I was referring to the blind faith in the government and the indirect condemnation of those exposed in the paradise papers (who are not criminals while those releasing the papers are).

 

What are you talking about? A tax resident of the US or Spain for example, not declaring their income that they hid offshore is against the law in that country, hence by definition said person would be a criminal. I know that does not apply to ALL named in the Panama Papers, but would apply to some (many?).

 

 

Based on your attitude towards the government and taxes, the IRS should be auditing you every single year :P something tells me they would find some interesting discrepancies.

 

Note I wrote paradise papers, not panama papers. Paradise papers was all legal, even the leftwing propaganda machines admit that, it's just that the general populace doesn't think it's fair.

 

Plus the "journalists" (thieves) that "acquired" (stole) the papers from the law firm are not condemned at all for their heighnous act. They publically shared private information obtained by theft against the will of those involved. Such honourable people.

 

And myself? I'm much too small a fish to setup tax structures liked that without the costs exceeding the savings.

[rb]

What are you talking about? A tax resident of the US or Spain for example, not declaring their income that they hid offshore is against the law in that country, hence by definition said person would be a criminal. I know that does not apply to ALL named in the Panama Papers, but would apply to some (many?).

 

 

Based on your attitude towards the government and taxes, the IRS should be auditing you every single year :P something tells me they would find some interesting discrepancies.

 

Note I wrote paradise papers, not panama papers. Paradise papers was all legal, even the leftwing propaganda machines admit that, it's just that the general populace doesn't think it's fair.

 

Plus the "journalists" (thieves) that "acquired" (stole) the papers from the law firm are not condemned at all for their heighnous act. They publically shared private information obtained by theft against the will of those involved. Such honourable people.

 

And myself? I'm much too small a fish to setup tax structures liked that without the costs exceeding the savings.

No true. Of course the law differs from jurisdiction to jurisdiction but in Canada it is illegal not to report foreign bank accounts and holding and income thereof. There are a number of people in Canada that are in hot criminal water because of revelations from the paradise papers. I'm that's true for other jurisdictions. So no, it was not all legal.

 

Also I'm not a lawyer but leaking company documents I think lies more in the firing offense bucket than the criminal offense bucket. Publishing materials someone dropped in your mail box is also perfectly legal and does not constitute theft. Even I know that.

[LC]

Plus the "journalists" (thieves) that "acquired" (stole) the papers from the law firm are not condemned at all for their heighnous act. They publically shared private information obtained by theft against the will of those involved. Such honourable people.

 

Do you have any idea if what the Panama paper whistleblower did was illegal or not?

 

I'm no expert in Panamanian law, but it sounds a bit presumptive to blindly accuse someone of theft.

[wachtwoord]

Plus the "journalists" (thieves) that "acquired" (stole) the papers from the law firm are not condemned at all for their heighnous act. They publically shared private information obtained by theft against the will of those involved. Such honourable people.

 

Do you have any idea if what the Panama paper whistleblower did was illegal or not?

 

I'm no expert in Panamanian law, but it sounds a bit presumptive to blindly accuse someone of theft.

 

Says the person who assumes all individuals banking or investing in other countries than their own are not paying their legally required taxes :)

 

Anyway no reason to start a "fight" here. Doesn't seem like a fruitful discussion will develop so I suggest we kill it.

[LC]

Fair enough  ;D

[rkbabang]

Bitcoin becomes a store of value for the world it will create the most massive disparity of wealth distribution in the history of mankind. 

 

Someday that will show up on the blue square in Jeopardy and the contestant will say:

 

"What is the method Libertarians used to take over the world?"

 

 

Posting this reddit link from 4 years ago without comment, because I have no idea what to say.

 

 

[LC]

https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/29/16717416/us-coinbase-irs-records

[SnarkyPuppy]

https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/29/16717416/us-coinbase-irs-records

 

So it will be taxable?  Kind of like stocks?

[rkbabang]

https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/29/16717416/us-coinbase-irs-records

 

So it will be taxable?  Kind of like stocks?

 

Yes the IRS declared years ago (2012 or 13 maybe?) that it was going to treat bitcoin as an asset and selling it is a taxable event, like stocks.

 

[SnarkyPuppy]

https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/29/16717416/us-coinbase-irs-records

 

So it will be taxable?  Kind of like stocks?

 

Yes the IRS declared years ago (2012 or 13 maybe?) that it was going to treat bitcoin as an asset and selling it is a taxable event, like stocks.

 

My comment was made in jest.  Those pointing to the IRS wanting taxes as bearish is utterly absurd

[rkbabang]

https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/29/16717416/us-coinbase-irs-records

 

So it will be taxable?  Kind of like stocks?

 

Yes the IRS declared years ago (2012 or 13 maybe?) that it was going to treat bitcoin as an asset and selling it is a taxable event, like stocks.

 

My comment was made in jest.  Those pointing to the IRS wanting taxes as bearish is utterly absurd

 

Oh OK, I thought everyone knew that by now.  I agree. For those who are limiting their investments only to those things for which you do not have to pay taxes on the gains, what are you investing in?

 

[DooDiligence]

Nobody enjoys paying taxes but nearly everyone enjoys the benefits of living in a developed economy (except those who are deluded into thinking things aren't GREAT here (insert your own country for "here").

 

People who invest with tax avoidance as their primary focus will wave flags at parades expressing faux appreciation for their country.

 

Fire away!

[rkbabang]

Nobody enjoys paying taxes but nearly everyone enjoys the benefits of living in a developed economy (except those who are deluded into thinking things aren't GREAT here (insert your own country for "here").

 

People who invest with tax avoidance as their primary focus will wave flags at parades expressing faux appreciation for their country.

 

Fire away!

 

I don't wave flags or have any love for any country, but I also don't try to avoid taxes.  I follow the laws in the place I choose to live even though I disagree with many of them (taxes included).

 

The point of the last few posts isn't that taxes are good or bad it was that some people are claiming that the IRS going after crypto investors for taxes is a part of a bear case against crypto-investing.  But the IRS wants its cut in absolutely everything you invest in, so how is that a negative only for crypto-currencies?  It is a negative for people who choose to break the law (and get caught), but it has no effect on people who keep good records and pay their capital gains same as they would with stocks, or bonds, or real estate, or gold, or diamonds, or cattle futures, or anything else people invest in.

 

[DooDiligence]

Nobody enjoys paying taxes but nearly everyone enjoys the benefits of living in a developed economy (except those who are deluded into thinking things aren't GREAT here (insert your own country for "here").

 

People who invest with tax avoidance as their primary focus will wave flags at parades expressing faux appreciation for their country.

 

Fire away!

 

I don't wave flags or have any love for any country, but I also don't try to avoid taxes.  I follow the laws in the place I choose to live even though I disagree with many of them (taxes included).

 

The point of the last few posts isn't that taxes are good or bad it was that some people are claiming that the IRS going after crypto investors for taxes is a part of a bear case against crypto-investing.  But the IRS wants its cut in absolutely everything you invest in, so how is that a negative only for crypto-currencies?  It is a negative for people who choose to break the law (and get caught), but it has no effect on people who keep good records and pay their capital gains same as they would with stocks, or bonds, or real estate, or gold, or diamonds, or cattle futures, or anything else people invest in.

 

Dude, that wasn't aimed in ANY way at you & was prob totally uncalled for anyways.

 

Humble apologies if u thought it was (I love all the thoughts u post here.)

 

I was waving the flag in my own way (and I was also being a bit of a douche by derailing the thread.)

[rkbabang]

Nobody enjoys paying taxes but nearly everyone enjoys the benefits of living in a developed economy (except those who are deluded into thinking things aren't GREAT here (insert your own country for "here").

 

People who invest with tax avoidance as their primary focus will wave flags at parades expressing faux appreciation for their country.

 

Fire away!

 

I don't wave flags or have any love for any country, but I also don't try to avoid taxes.  I follow the laws in the place I choose to live even though I disagree with many of them (taxes included).

 

The point of the last few posts isn't that taxes are good or bad it was that some people are claiming that the IRS going after crypto investors for taxes is a part of a bear case against crypto-investing.  But the IRS wants its cut in absolutely everything you invest in, so how is that a negative only for crypto-currencies?  It is a negative for people who choose to break the law (and get caught), but it has no effect on people who keep good records and pay their capital gains same as they would with stocks, or bonds, or real estate, or gold, or diamonds, or cattle futures, or anything else people invest in.

 

Dude, that wasn't aimed in ANY way at you & was prob totally uncalled for anyways.

 

Humble apologies if u thought it was (I love all the thoughts u post here.)

 

I was waving the flag in my own way (and I was also being a bit of a douche by derailing the thread.)

 

No offence taken, I didn't think it was being aimed at me, but you did say "fire away"  :)  Probably belongs in the politics section though.

[DeepSouth]

Nobody enjoys paying taxes but nearly everyone enjoys the benefits of living in a developed economy (except those who are deluded into thinking things aren't GREAT here (insert your own country for "here").

 

People who invest with tax avoidance as their primary focus will wave flags at parades expressing faux appreciation for their country.

 

Fire away!

 

I don't wave flags or have any love for any country, but I also don't try to avoid taxes.  I follow the laws in the place I choose to live even though I disagree with many of them (taxes included).

 

The point of the last few posts isn't that taxes are good or bad it was that some people are claiming that the IRS going after crypto investors for taxes is a part of a bear case against crypto-investing.  But the IRS wants its cut in absolutely everything you invest in, so how is that a negative only for crypto-currencies?  It is a negative for people who choose to break the law (and get caught), but it has no effect on people who keep good records and pay their capital gains same as they would with stocks, or bonds, or real estate, or gold, or diamonds, or cattle futures, or anything else people invest in.

 

It's bearish for cryptocurrencies because equity traders know they have to pay taxes on gains so they plan for the continual liquidity needs of taxes. Many bitcoin traders are anarchists who laughingly believe that the US government is simultaneously a tyrannical state and incompetent/incapable at collecting taxes, so they haven't planned to pay taxes on their gains. This is clear from how few coinbase accounts pay any taxes on their bitcoin gains. Further, the IRS will tax bitcoin realized gains as ordinary income, creating a larger liquidity needs than securities which pay lower cap gains rate. If the IRS comes after $10B in bitcoin related taxes, that will create a large amount of selling pressure on bitcoin.

[SharperDingaan]

The IRS has at least 2 major problems

1) If you bought/sold crypto via a fund, you have a gain/loss - that in theory, could be taxed. If you bought the same cypto directly, you just bought 'money' and the FX gain/loss is not taxable. Same asset (crypto), different treatment.

2) Crypto exists only in cyberspace, there is no domicile, hence the tax rate is zero.

 

SD

[rb]

The IRS has at least 2 major problems

1) If you bought/sold crypto via a fund, you have a gain/loss - that in theory, could be taxed. If you bought the same cypto directly, you just bought 'money' and the FX gain/loss is not taxable. Same asset (crypto), different treatment.

2) Crypto exists only in cyberspace, there is no domicile, hence the tax rate is zero.

 

SD

I'm not sure about the US but FX is most definitely taxable in Canada. Where your stuff exists doesn't matter.

[Pelagic]

The IRS has at least 2 major problems

1) If you bought/sold crypto via a fund, you have a gain/loss - that in theory, could be taxed. If you bought the same cypto directly, you just bought 'money' and the FX gain/loss is not taxable. Same asset (crypto), different treatment.

2) Crypto exists only in cyberspace, there is no domicile, hence the tax rate is zero.

 

SD

 

I was always under the impression FOREX traders report gains/loss on FX trades as ordinary income. If a crypto currency is bought directly buying "money" it should be no different than buying say euros with dollars and taxed the same way every other FX trader pays taxes. The distinction between buying through an investment fund and buying directly is a good one since in theory gains/loss in the fund should be taxed at the capital gains rate vs. the ordinary income rate. Lots to figure out but if I can be certain of one thing it's that the IRS will figure out a way to get as much as they possibly can.

[RichardGibbons]

The IRS has at least 2 major problems

1) If you bought/sold crypto via a fund, you have a gain/loss - that in theory, could be taxed. If you bought the same cypto directly, you just bought 'money' and the FX gain/loss is not taxable. Same asset (crypto), different treatment.

2) Crypto exists only in cyberspace, there is no domicile, hence the tax rate is zero.

 

As far as I can see, foreign exchange gains and losses are taxable. Like, if you were trading regular currencies, you'd have to pay tax, right?  Is there something I'm missing?

 

I'm also confused by your reasoning on #2. Don't the people who own the crypto have a domicile, so therefore they have to pay taxes?  I'm not sure why crypto existing only in cyberspace matters.

 

I hope I'm wrong about this--I was planning to pay tax on my crypto gains.  So, if you're right about those answers, I'm really interested.  Or is your argument more like, "the IRS has no way of knowing, therefore you don't have to pay tax"?