Guest misterstockwell Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 With all the doom and gloom around FFH(at least from the market perspective), I thought we should revisit at the CDS portfolio. I haven't gotten the updated ORH holdings from 12/31, but the 9/30 holdings showed a great many foreign financials, as well as many US. The stock prices on almost all of these have dropped to levels far below 11/21/2008. The largest positions were Allianz, Societe Generale, Aegon, Zurich, Meunchener, Deutsche Bank, Swiss Re, Genworth, Goldman, Hanover, BofA etc. They should have some decent profits to take in these this quarter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watsa_is_a_randian_hero Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 If someone sends me a list of the 12/31 holdings I can provide updated values from bloomberg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I also was wondering what was up with the CDS's. 8 billion notional is still half of what they had at their peak. Nice opportunity given current fall out with global financials... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest misterstockwell Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 If someone wants to register here, https://external-apps.naic.org/insData/index.jsp , they can get the latest Odyssey and C&F filings which give you representative info for FFH(who doesn't have to file). First 5 reports are free. I have used mine up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watsa_is_a_randian_hero Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I have 0 remaining free reports as well. If someone else registers - post the PDF here and I'll download the current CDS spreads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest misterstockwell Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Can you get spreads from 12/31 as well to compare? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watsa_is_a_randian_hero Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UhuruPeak Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I tried but ORH doesn't seem to have filed already? someone else wants to check too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericd1 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I grabbed the reports and sent them on to watsa_is_a_randian_hero...Hope I got the correct ones. BTW - They are huge files Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watsa_is_a_randian_hero Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 yeah - taking a look now. Looks like he has been buying a ton of mbs for pennies on the dollar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAllen Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I'm taking a look also but this is the first time perusing these very detailed statements. The Abitibi Bonds are marked at 11 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAllen Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 The $72M cost RMBS have a par value of $708M and yield anywhere from 20%-461% to maturity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAllen Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 This is cool stuff. Can I not just post this on here? It is 5.8MB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watsa_is_a_randian_hero Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Here are the CDS spreads. I'm calculating about a $5 per share gain based on the duration. About half of this is coming from Bank of America, JPMorgan, and Aegon. If someone wants to figure out a way to get all of the MBS and Muni cusips in to excel, I can give a value for that too. Spread Spread 12/31/2008 3/6/2009 Allianz (used senior) 134 159.125 Societe Generale Senior 89 136 Hanover Re 84.5 150 XL Capital 865 1049.25 Barclays 154.5 230.327 Aegon 409.5 639.311 ACE 103.25 132.625 Bank of America 112.357 410.959 Munich Re 65 117 JP Morgan 100.167 300 Zurich 149 203 Deutsche Bank 138.375 145 Citi 201.938 645.417 Capital One 291.3 570.394 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valuecfa Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Boy they sure did purchase a lot of MBS's. I have little experience with these, so i hope the team is confident in their analysis of these securities. Is that large Cheung Kong Hldg. a new purchase for ORH? It's right up there with Pfizer, kraft, intel, dell, jnj, as a top holding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyleholmes Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Was wondering if you guys could post the link to this information. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest misterstockwell Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Sweet---I started buying Cheung Kong the other day. I wasn't aware ORH owned it. Good to have Prem as my wingman. ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watsa_is_a_randian_hero Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 As far as the MBS are concerned - I pulled a few up on Bloomberg. It looks like its not a question of will they default - it is a question of when. Watsa bought these for pennies on the dollar though. Most are sub-tranches in leveraged structures - the value of which is very sensitive to the timing and levels of foreclosures. If foreclosures come in less than anticipated, or recoveries are higher, it may be possible for these investments to double (bought at 5, receive 10 cents worth of cash flows, then default). For example, one bond I pulled up (a Citi MBS), using a 10% CPR, 10% CDR% (high), 40% recovery, and a 15% discount rate, the security is worth about 3 cents on the dollar and defaults in September. Changing the recovery rate to 60% though results in a value of over 8 cents, about 2.5 times higher. They are so sensitive - these are basically call options on the housing/mortgage market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StubbleJumper Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 I wonder whether the MBS market is really a variant of Akerlof's "Market for Lemons." There is no way for a buyer to reasonably assess the quality of the underlying mortgages, so a prudent buyer must assume that the MBS is comprised of the worst crap out there. Bids are probably pushed down in consequence. However, we know that the MBS are not all comprised of the worst crap out there. There will likely be some that come out quite nicely. It is entirely possible that this lack of transparency will result in undervaluation of MBS (we won't likely know for a few more years). Perhaps that's where Prem's coming from? SJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFValue Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 I remeber at last year's AGM that somebody asked Prem about buying MBS. he said that the only reasonable way to do that was to go over one by one and not look at them as an asset class. He also mentioned that they did not have the intention of doing that at that point (IIRC). Well, they are doing it now... Also, Tilson has gone over a tranch that they purchased under the same premise...cash yields are huge and very sensitive to a few % of sensitivity, like a call option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watsa_is_a_randian_hero Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 StubbleJumper - All of these mbs you can type in a cusip and get any type of info from bloomberg you would want - delinquency buckets, foreclosures, types of mortgages, prepay speeds, fico score stratifications, geographic origin, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StubbleJumper Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 All of these mbs you can type in a cusip and get any type of info from bloomberg you would want - delinquency buckets, foreclosures, types of mortgages, prepay speeds, fico score stratifications, geographic origin, etc. Sure, you can get all the observable characteristics of the MBS. What about the characteristics that are unobservable to the typical buyer? Delinquency rates and foreclosures tell you about problems that have occurred in the past, which is good information....but when you plunk a cusip into a Bloomberg machine, does it tell you how many of the mortgages were liar loans, ninja loans, inflated property appraisals, etc? There was a big pile of crap mortgages issued over the past few years and you might be able to discern some of the losers from the winners though credit scores or the other observable characteristics....but isn't it a little like trying to pick fly-shit out of pepper? Or attempting to sort raisins and turds? Akerlof would argue that asset prices are bid down in those circumstances...we'll know in a few years! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAllen Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Remember that if they are still paying interest and you purchased them for less than the annual interest then returns could get interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Partner24 Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Do you know what is the total $ amount that have been invested in MBS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watsa_is_a_randian_hero Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 if you search "mortgage" in the FFH AR, they reference it in there too. Its about $160 million. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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