Lebron hits 50k at 40

[Malmqky]

No chance Shaq is below Kawhi. Hell I might have him just above Kobe personally.

 

1. MJ

2. Bron

3. Kareem

Russell / Wilt / Magic / Bird / Shaq/ Kobe/ Duncan/ Hakeem in no order after that. 

 

Maybe I'm off but this is off the top of my head and seems right.

 

Shaq so low is laughable.

[Malmqky]

Also D Wade about Shaq?? C'mon.

[Castanza]

I want to know why he hates Shaq so much lol 

[Rainier]

14 minutes ago, Malmqky said:

Also D Wade about Shaq?? C'mon.

If I were drafting today, knowing the trajectory of all of those players and their injuries and work ethic and everything…I would take everyone I have ranked above Shaq before Shaq, with the possible exceptions of Walton (injury), Kawhi (injury), Dr J (hard to evaluate due to ABA competition).  

 

So, maybe I’d move him up three spots to 26.
 

But I would absolutely take Wade over Shaq. Unless I was drafting in like 1950 or something. Anytime from 1980 onward, he’d be drafted around 25 on that list. 
 

Now if it was the idea of Shaq, the version going out of LSU, that I was drafting. Then yeah, he’d be higher. But knowing what I know, I wouldn’t want a decade of fat Shaq. Fat Shaq with the Lakers benefitted from some extreme tailwinds when it comes to narratives for the league (i.e. favorable calls in the playoffs) and the level of competition in the league at that time. There were basically three teams with any hope from year to year - the Lakers, Spurs, and Kings. And no one in the East. JKidd’s nets and Iverson’s 76ers were not a lot of competition in the finals. All of the real contests were in the WCF. So, all Shaq had to do was get through the west and had smooth sailing. Plus, he had a top 10ish all time player with him in Kobe. A top 3 all time coach. And one of the best supporting casts of role players in the last 30 years. 
 

I know I’m in the minority with this opinion, and that’s fine. I’m good with living solo on anti-Shaq island. But it’s not debatable to me.  Shaq is one of the all time most overrated players.

 

Still, I’ve got him 29th on that list! That’s not bad at all! And, honestly, pretty impressive he’s that high given his (again, self-admitted) laziness.

[Rainier]

9 minutes ago, Castanza said:

I want to know why he hates Shaq so much lol 

Hey, I don’t hate him at all!!! I’ve got him 29th. Of course he’ll be 30th in a couple of years once Luka has a title!

[Malmqky]

2 hours ago, Rainier said:

If I were drafting today, knowing the trajectory of all of those players and their injuries and work ethic and everything…I would take everyone I have ranked above Shaq before Shaq, with the possible exceptions of Walton (injury), Kawhi (injury), Dr J (hard to evaluate due to ABA competition).  

 

So, maybe I’d move him up three spots to 26.
 

But I would absolutely take Wade over Shaq. Unless I was drafting in like 1950 or something. Anytime from 1980 onward, he’d be drafted around 25 on that list. 
 

Now if it was the idea of Shaq, the version going out of LSU, that I was drafting. Then yeah, he’d be higher. But knowing what I know, I wouldn’t want a decade of fat Shaq. Fat Shaq with the Lakers benefitted from some extreme tailwinds when it comes to narratives for the league (i.e. favorable calls in the playoffs) and the level of competition in the league at that time. There were basically three teams with any hope from year to year - the Lakers, Spurs, and Kings. And no one in the East. JKidd’s nets and Iverson’s 76ers were not a lot of competition in the finals. All of the real contests were in the WCF. So, all Shaq had to do was get through the west and had smooth sailing. Plus, he had a top 10ish all time player with him in Kobe. A top 3 all time coach. And one of the best supporting casts of role players in the last 30 years. 
 

I know I’m in the minority with this opinion, and that’s fine. I’m good with living solo on anti-Shaq island. But it’s not debatable to me.  Shaq is one of the all time most overrated players.

 

Still, I’ve got him 29th on that list! That’s not bad at all! And, honestly, pretty impressive he’s that high given his (again, self-admitted) laziness.

 

I mean, I respect you for having your own opinion and standing behind it.

 

But I could not disagree more.

 

Prime/peak Shaq was the single greatest offensive force I've seen. Remember hack a shaq? Teams literally had scrubs rostered just to foul out and try to slow him down. He was an above average defender and passer.

 

14x All NBA. Was the best player on the court at all times for 3 rings of his rings. Kobe wasn't even a starter for the first and wasn't in his prime until end of the three peat.

 

But anyways, let's agree to disagree here. This isn't a topic about Shaq, let's get back to Lebron.

Edited Thursday at 11:19 PM by Malmqky

[Rainier]

Agree on getting back to LeBron. And I apologize, didn’t mean to derail the thread so much. Shaq definitely doesn’t need this much attention.

 

 

[Castanza]

@Rainier Are you a Raptors fan? 

[Rainier]

15 hours ago, Castanza said:

@Rainier Are you a Raptors fan? 

No. Was a Sonics fan as a kid. Then mavericks and spurs. 

[Castanza]

19 minutes ago, Rainier said:

No. Was a Sonics fan as a kid. Then mavericks and spurs. 

Ah okay wasn’t sure because you mentions Vince Carter and Leonard. 
 

Miss the Sonics 

[bargainman]

I don't know if MJ/Pippen were that high IQ, they just had amazing athletic gifts, a great coach and front office that was ahead of its time.  Cooper used to say he much rather guard MJ vs Bird cause Bird would just wear them out with his brain.  When I think high IQ I think Lebron, Magic, Bird, even Kareem apparently was brilliant.  Jokic and Luka too.  Chris Paul, Rondo and Kidd to a lesser degree.  I'd almost say Bird and DJ vs Mchale since DJ was the PG.  Walton was super high IQ too when he played with Bird.  It's hard to compare the eras as well.  Anyway, it's all subjective.  Even the number of finals is not a good marker since it's a team game.  Lebron languished for years in Cleveland cause they didn't build a team around him.  I mean it's hard to name anyone from the team he took to his first finals.  If you want it to be more objective at an individual level you need to look at all nba finishes, DPOY, all defense teams etcs. plus sprinkle some other team accolades.  But still.

 

Anyway Lebron is special.  I can't believe he can still dunk at will.  He's breaking and broken so many records it's ridiculous.

[Gamecock-YT]

On 3/5/2025 at 11:06 AM, bargainman said:

Talk about investing in your body.

 

Or PEDs.

[Parsad]

On 3/6/2025 at 6:37 AM, Rainier said:

 

Luka and LeBron (especially LeBron) are obviously physically gifted. But they’re in rarified air in terms of all-time basketball IQ. The only other players on the league on their level are Jokic, decrepit Chris Paul, and Draymond.
 

Of course basketball IQ is obviously the most subjective thing ever and can’t be quantified at all. More of a know it when you see it trait I guess.  Bird, Jokic, Chris Paul, Stockton, Payton being prime examples. Physically not impressive and may not even score much in a game, but routinely control the entire flow of the game by themselves.
 

 

I think you have to include Steph on that list.  Look at his numbers and then add another 5-7 points to each game...as an elite player, he gets less free throw calls than anyone in history.  I think he's #2 on fewest free throw chances for a player with 20 points a game in a season...13+ seasons with 20 points a game or well over that.  Then look at how he's changed the game solely through his work ethic...no physical gifts...just hard work!  Perhaps the most clutch shooter alongside Kobe, Michael Jordan and LeBron.  Cheers!

[Parsad]

On 3/6/2025 at 8:23 AM, Castanza said:

Luka hasn’t been in the league long enough to put him in any all time great list yet imo. Shaq absolutely was a very high IQ player. Basketball IQ is a tough thing to judge because it’s specific to role, position, and offense vs defense.

 

 

 

Shaq would have probably been the most dominant player in history alongside Wilt Chamberlain if he could just shoot free throws!  Because of that, I put Bill Russell and Tim Duncan ahead of him as best centers.  Cheers!  

[Parsad]

On 3/6/2025 at 9:23 AM, Malmqky said:

 

Luka isn't that bad of a defender.

 

High IQ, gets his hands on a lot of passes, puts in an acceptable amount of effort. Sure his lateral agility sucks and he's not a plus defender, but he's not even the worse defender on his team.

 

Remember he was carrying the entire offensive load and playing on one leg half the time with the Mavs.

 

 

 

If anyone doubts how powerful the Luka/LeBron duo is, all they had to do was watch the Lakers/Knicks game yesterday.  Luka's offensive threat allows the rest of the Lakers to be all out defenders.  That final 7-8 minutes in the fourth quarter, the Lakers were just driving the Knicks crazy with their defense.  If it wasn't for Brunson, the game would have been a blow-out!  And while Luka's fitness needs work (I worry about his knees and ankles), he proved himself a reasonably smart defensive player by reading where the ball was going, and then feeding the ball or shooting the ball to hammer the Knicks offensively. 

 

As a guard, I think LeBron is probably the best two-way player in history...even better than Jordan.  When he has someone like Luka to play with, it frees up LeBron to run with the offense and then fly back and help on defense...he's not carrying the ball as much or running the offense.  If you watched the games since Luka joined the Lakers, this is the most exciting LeBron has looked in years and he looks like he's having a hell of a lot of fun!  Maybe he'll stick around another five years!  Cheers!

[Parsad]

On 3/6/2025 at 10:35 AM, xboojum said:

From a comment on the sports blog Defector:

 

* JJ Redick is in college: LeBron 27/7/7 
* JJ Redick, NBA rookie: LeBron 27/7/6 
* JJ Redick, NBA starter: LeBron 27/7/6 
* JJ Redick, 15 year vet, LeBron 25/8/8 
* JJ Redick analyst/podcaster: LeBron 26/8/7 
* JJ Redick is LeBron's coach: LeBron 25/9/8

 

Just a machine.

 

Yeah, that's just crazy!  Amazing!  Cheers!

[Parsad]

2 hours ago, Gamecock-YT said:

 

Or PEDs.

 

LeBron was built like that when he was 15.  I remember watching a few national high school games with him and he's always been built like that.  He was touted as a #1 draft as a 15 year old.  When he played in the national high school tournaments as a 17 year old, it was like watching Eric Lindros when he played Junior hockey...men playing with boys!  Cheers!

[Rainier]

6 hours ago, Parsad said:

 

Shaq would have probably been the most dominant player in history alongside Wilt Chamberlain if he could just shoot free throws!  Because of that, I put Bill Russell and Tim Duncan ahead of him as best centers.  Cheers!  

+1

 

I would also definitely have Hakeem and and Kareem in front of Shaq and Wilt.