OT - Sleep training a baby

[Castanza]

32 minutes ago, Kazid said:

As a new dad of a 10 week old, it's nice to hear everyone's perspectives.

I feel you, @stahleyp!

 

I wouldn't give much weight to my comments given n=1 and being so early in the journey, but for what it's worth we are cosleeping and do not plan on sleep training at this point. That could change, but so far we're overall happy with things. Around weeks 3-5 weeks our son started sleeping for 3.5-4.5 hour blocks, and I think around week 6 we got one glorious 5 hour block! It's regressed a bit the last few weeks, but consistently getting 3.5-4 now, with a few 4.5s sprinkled in.

 

Here are some of the patchwork approach of things we've been doing:

• Sunlight exposure early in the day, preferably some midday, and towards sunset. Just like with adults, this exposure both early and late when the sun is lower in the sky is helpful in setting the circadian rhythm, and thus has some impact on sleep. I believe babies don't start developing this until 2+ months and it's an ongoing thing, but I have to think it helps to some degree. Sample size is small, but we think he does better on days when he's outside more.
• Having something of a routine at night. Can't tell you the "right" one, but generally trying to create a progressively calmer environment as we approach the first nighttime sleep cycle. Low/no lights. Quiet, calm voices. Gentle music. Not intense playing/jostling. Slow movements. 
• Making sure he gets naps in during the day and does not get overtired. He definitely is harder to get down and keep down when we keep him up too long during the day, normally as a result of visitors.
• Squeezing in a bit extra feeding closer to bed, so if normally spaced/following cues and it's 2 hours, maybe go 1.5 out from bedtime and right before bedtime to "top off".
• When he wakes during the night, don't instantly go to him. If he's wailing sure, but general movement or light wimpering let him be. Their sleep cycle is short and they awaken during it, and sometimes (hopefully) put themselves back down after a brief wake.
• Our son struggles with gas (although getting better) at night, so we preemptively bicycle his legs when we go to bed to help work stuff out so he stays down.
• We sometimes notice he does not stay down when we don't burp him well enough. Now of course we think we do it well enough, but then we find sometimes he wakes up in 10-25 minutes, we console him, and a burp slips out. Thus we didn't actually get it all out. So really trying to get some solid burps out before putting the baby down is worth it so it doesn't wake them up too soon.
• We actually hold him during his first sleep cycle and we watch a movie. He doesn't like sleeping while not being held in general, so we hold him, turn off the lights, face him away from screen, and watch a movie on quiet. After he does this first cycle, he is sleepy and stays down better.

Who knows what if any of it is helping, but we're making it.

 

Gota love it.

Good insights  pretty much spot on for what we’ve been doing here. But we did opt for some Mylicon gas drops and it helped a lot. 

Edited August 22, 2023 by Castanza

[Blugolds11]

35 minutes ago, Kazid said:

 

• Our son struggles with gas (although getting better) at night, so we preemptively bicycle his legs when we go to bed to help work stuff out so he stays down.

 

One of the twins burped easily from the start, no issues, the other would strain his entire body and scream in pain, it was hard to watch. I also tried the bicycles, the kid has probably put on 5k miles worth of bicycles LOL, and I would gentle push his legs/quads back into his stomach and that would occasionally get a fart. 

 

We tried "gripe water" and that seemed to help, a little through the day at times, and a little before bed. could be a placebo (for me) but it did seem to make a difference. 

 

Seems as though he is through that phase maybe, burps and farts come easier for him now. Initially I was the "burp pro" I think mom didnt feel comfortable patting the back enough to produce relief. At that point I was so tired physically and mentally that I wasnt afraid to pat his back "like I meant it" and it seemed to work. I also got some burps by pushing and rubbing his back from his butt to the base of his shoulders, almost "Drawing up" the gas. Not sure why that worked but it did, maybe it relaxed or stimulated the muscle enough to move the right way and release. God I even watched youtube videos talking about foot massages, toe massages etc for gas relief, at that stage I was trying everything LOL. 

 

Interesting difference with twins. A is cool as a cucumber, always smiling, rarely fusses, super chill, honestly if he would have been solo and a first (so far) I wouldnt understand what the big deal is, he's easy peasy. B is the struggler and regularly upset, fussing, screaming, hard to get to sleep etc. Makes me wonder if that will continue through adulthood, is he always gonna be the "handful"? LOL

 

[Blugolds11]

25 minutes ago, Castanza said:

Good insights  pretty much spot on for what we’ve been doing here. But we did opt for some Mylicon gas drops and it helped a lot. 

 

We didnt have good luck with the Mylicon...Gripe Water worked better for us for some reason. Either way at that point I would have flown in elixir from tibet if I thought it would have helped and I would have bought it by the 55 gal drum LOL it was pretty intense for a while there. 

[Sweet]

Didn’t realise so many in the board had young children.  
 

It’s hell at times, let’s be honest.

[Castanza]

Just now, Blugolds11 said:

 

We didnt have good luck with the Mylicon...Gripe Water worked better for us for some reason. Either way at that point I would have flown in elixir from tibet if I thought it would have helped and I would have bought it by the 55 gal drum LOL it was pretty intense for a while there. 

First week we didn’t use anything but week two the drops were a game changer. Little dude was thrashing like crazy with gas cramps. I was trying everything like you the first week. Some people (mommy bloggers) say not to give them mylicon or gripe water for the first two months. Our doc said both were fine but that mylicon was FDA approved and gripe water wasn’t . My wife said they frequently give mylicon to NICU babies at every hospital she’s worked at so we stuck with that one. But mainly because this is the one that worked lol 
 

 

[Castanza]

2 minutes ago, Sweet said:

Didn’t realise so many in the board had young children.  
 

It’s hell at times, let’s be honest.

 

[RichardGibbons]

3 hours ago, zzzyx said:

 

LOL....the appeal to "SCIENCE"....and then the extrapolation to child abuse.  Too funny!

 

LOL, yeah, science--correlation is not causation, and it's interesting to speculate about underlying causes when you have a strong correlation. Spanking kids was pretty standard in my lifetime, though it's abuse now.

[Sweet]

2 hours ago, RichardGibbons said:

 

LOL, yeah, science--correlation is not causation, and it's interesting to speculate about underlying causes when you have a strong correlation. Spanking kids was pretty standard in my lifetime, though it's abuse now.

Human parents have co-slept throughout history, and that’s good?  Human parents spanked throughout history, and that’s bad?

 

Co-sleeping is strongly associated with Sudden Infant Death Syndrome in young children.  There are probably safer ways to co-sleep but the risk of SIDS is still higher.  Reason enough to not co-sleep because dead kids definitely don’t develop well.  Not sure why all the talk about co-sleeping parents caring more then.

 

[HubbadaPow]

My youngest had laryngitis as an infant so we couldn't hear her when she cried at night.  Of our three kids, that was the best sleep training I ever experienced. 

[RichardGibbons]

19 hours ago, Sweet said:

Human parents have co-slept throughout history, and that’s good?  Human parents spanked throughout history, and that’s bad?

 

Yes and yes. 

[Guest]

8 hours ago, HubbadaPow said:

My youngest had laryngitis as an infant so we couldn't hear her when she cried at night.  Of our three kids, that was the best sleep training I ever experienced. 

 

[adesigar]

On 8/22/2023 at 8:42 PM, Sweet said:

Co-sleeping is strongly associated with Sudden Infant Death Syndrome in young children.  There are probably safer ways to co-sleep but the risk of SIDS is still higher.  Reason enough to not co-sleep because dead kids definitely don’t develop well.  Not sure why all the talk about co-sleeping parents caring more then.

 

 

 

Co-sleeping is very common in Asia and most babies sleep with their parents. There is a very low incidence of SIDS in Asia compared to US and most other western European countries.

 

Why is "sleep training" not needed in the vast majority of countries around the world?  People in most countries don't let their babies cry and they don't need to or try to "sleep train" them.  

 

 

Edited August 24, 2023 by adesigar

[Sweet]

2 hours ago, adesigar said:

 

 

Co-sleeping is very common in Asia and most babies sleep with their parents. There is a very low incidence of SIDS in Asia compared to US and most other western European countries.

 

Why is "sleep training" not needed in the vast majority of countries around the world?  People in most countries don't let their babies cry and they don't need to or try to "sleep train" them.  

 

 

Cool - lots of anecdotes.
 

Co-sleeping in the Western countries is associated with a higher risk of SIDS, that’s a fact.

 

It could be different in Asia.  1) Do you have a comparison of co-sleeping vs cot sleeping?  2) Do you know what’s the cause of the difference?

 

(Note - babies normally sleep in a cot beside the parents bed, not as some of you seem to imagine at the other end of the house).
 

Most people in other countries don’t let their baby cry?  That’s an extraordinary claim - why should I believe you?  And most people in other countries don’t sleep train their babies - evidence please?

 

Is sleep training needed?  I can’t speak for everyone so I won’t because I have no idea.

I do know this, from our case of twins, one was a great sleeper the other a very light sleeper.  The light sleeper would briefly wake during sleep cycles and cry, wouldn’t take the bottle, just didn’t like to be alone.  Ferber method allows the baby to cry for a bit, but lets them know they aren’t alone by picking them up at planned intervals.  Two days of this (yes only two) and he slept much better then on, he was more rested during the day, cried way less, and mum was better rested and could provision better care.  But apparently we are terrible parents even though all results in our case suggest it’s beneficial for our baby.

 

Sleep training is not just ‘letting your baby cry’ - that’s cruel.

 

Edited August 24, 2023 by Sweet

[Sweet]

8 hours ago, RichardGibbons said:

Yes and yes. 

Yes so there are some things in human history which we used to do which are good and others which we now frown upon.  So let’s not herald prior human practices as proof it’s the right thing to do.

[adesigar]

10 hours ago, Sweet said:

Cool - lots of anecdotes.
 

Co-sleeping in the Western countries is associated with a higher risk of SIDS, that’s a fact.

 

It could be different in Asia.  1) Do you have a comparison of co-sleeping vs cot sleeping?  2) Do you know what’s the cause of the difference?

 

(Note - babies normally sleep in a cot beside the parents bed, not as some of you seem to imagine at the other end of the house).
 

Most people in other countries don’t let their baby cry?  That’s an extraordinary claim - why should I believe you?  And most people in other countries don’t sleep train their babies - evidence please?

 

Is sleep training needed?  I can’t speak for everyone so I won’t because I have no idea.

I do know this, from our case of twins, one was a great sleeper the other a very light sleeper.  The light sleeper would briefly wake during sleep cycles and cry, wouldn’t take the bottle, just didn’t like to be alone.  Ferber method allows the baby to cry for a bit, but lets them know they aren’t alone by picking them up at planned intervals.  Two days of this (yes only two) and he slept much better then on, he was more rested during the day, cried way less, and mum was better rested and could provision better care.  But apparently we are terrible parents even though all results in our case suggest it’s beneficial for our baby.

 

Sleep training is not just ‘letting your baby cry’ - that’s cruel.

 

 

 

Cool -Lots of questions that could have been answered with simple online searches.

 

Most people in other countries do let their baby cry?  That’s an extraordinary claim - why should I believe you?  And most people in other countries do sleep train their babies - evidence please?

 

Google is your friend. Learn to use it.

 

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220322-how-sleep-training-affects-babies#:~:text=In global terms%2C the idea,some form of the technique.

 

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220131-the-science-of-safe-and-healthy-baby-sleep

 

Edit: Added more links for people to read.

 

https://www.babysleepsite.com/sleep-training/baby-toddler-sleep-cultural-differences/

 

https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/how_cosleeping_can_help_you_and_your_baby#:~:text=Cosleeping and SIDS&text=The American Academy of Pediatrics took their cue%2C and all,where cosleeping is most common.

 

 

https://www.naturalchild.org/articles/james_mckenna/cosleeping_world.html#:~:text=For the overwhelming majority of,and babies routinely share sleep.

 

 

 

Edited August 24, 2023 by adesigar

[Sweet]

1 hour ago, adesigar said:

 

Cool -Lots of questions that could have been answered with simple online searches.

 

Most people in other countries do let their baby cry?  That’s an extraordinary claim - why should I believe you?  And most people in other countries do sleep train their babies - evidence please?

 

Google is your friend. Learn to use it.

 

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220322-how-sleep-training-affects-babies#:~:text=In global terms%2C the idea,some form of the technique.

 

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220131-the-science-of-safe-and-healthy-baby-sleep

 

Edit: Added more links for people to read.

 

https://www.babysleepsite.com/sleep-training/baby-toddler-sleep-cultural-differences/

 

https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/how_cosleeping_can_help_you_and_your_baby#:~:text=Cosleeping and SIDS&text=The American Academy of Pediatrics took their cue%2C and all,where cosleeping is most common.

 

 

https://www.naturalchild.org/articles/james_mckenna/cosleeping_world.html#:~:text=For the overwhelming majority of,and babies routinely share sleep.

 

 

 

 

 

To the specific claims:

• 1) Do you have a comparison of co-sleeping vs cot sleeping?  2) Do you know what’s the cause of the difference?

Is the answer no?  You didn't post anything about that.

 

 

Some quotes from some of your articles:

 

"In global terms, the idea of "training" babies to sleep alone and unaided is uncommon. Modern Mayan mothers, for example, expressed shock when they heard that in the US, babies were put to sleep in a separate room. But in North America, Australia and parts of Europe, many families swear by some form of the technique" - sleep training doesn't have to mean putting your baby alone in a separate room.  What are you talking about?

 

"Instead, it’s the expectation that babies will have night-wakings and the family’s “village” will help, whether it means getting up with the baby at night or allow Mom to nap during the day." - it's the expectation of every parent that babies will get up through the night, it's a strawman to suggest anything different.

 

"In many countries, parents and children share the same bed for several years. This is the case in many Asian countries — babies sleep with their parents until they’re toddlers, and at that point, they move to their own small bed near their parents’ bed" - so they aren't co-sleeping after a certain age and they are being sleep trained like everyone else.

 

"In many cultures, cosleep­ing is the norm until children are weaned" - also not co-sleeping and also involves sleep training.

 

"In the Western world, co-sleeping isn’t exactly the norm. Here in the West, we tend to sleep our babies in cribs, in a separate nursery. Room-sharing is still popular the first 6 months or so, but other forms of co-sleeping (like co-sleeping long-term, or bed-sharing) are still more on the rare side among Western moms." - this article says co-sleeping isn't the norm, and then contradicts itself in the next sentence by saying room sharing is popular and is a form of co-sleeping.

 

"Cosleeping is practiced in a variety of ways around the world. In Latin America, the Philippines, and Vietnam, some parents sleep with their baby in a hammock next to the bed" - since when is this co-sleeping?  If this is co-sleeping then the vast majority of parents of Western parents will co-sleep too, therefore the claim that Westerners don't co-sleep is wrong.

 

"Many experts see this as a strong argument for using sleep training to ultimately boost the whole family's wellbeing.  "If we're not healthy and functioning as parents, it's very hard to look after our children and give them the love and parenting that they need"  - plenty of pro-sleep training arguments in your own link.

 

Edited August 24, 2023 by Sweet

[RichardGibbons]

14 hours ago, Sweet said:

Yes so there are some things in human history which we used to do which are good and others which we now frown upon.  So let’s not herald prior human practices as proof it’s the right thing to do.

 

I agree 100% that we should both team up to pound that straw man into the ground.

 

For instance, I haven't enslaved or genocided anyone this year, though human historical practices indicate it's a good idea. And I think that's the right decision (for me, at least. Don't want to judge....)

[Guest]

18 hours ago, RichardGibbons said:

 

I agree 100% that we should both team up to pound that straw man into the ground.

 

For instance, I haven't enslaved or genocided anyone this year, though human historical practices indicate it's a good idea. And I think that's the right decision (for me, at least. Don't want to judge....)

 

Those are actually both okay since there is no moral standard we bags of chemcials "ought" to follow.  Each society/cultures just makes it up as they go along. 

Edited August 25, 2023 by stahleyp

[nafregnum]

https://beatyourgenes.org/2023/08/10/313-dr-lisle-nate-why-are-people-snobby-why-doesnt-my-spouse-want-to-improve-their-health-can-you-sleep-train-an-infant-single-by-choice-but-lonely/

 

Beat Your Genes podcast is about Evolutionary Psychology.  I remember listening to this earlier this month, where Dr. Lisle answered a question about sleep training.  Might have to skip past the first question if you're not interested in that one.  In a nutshell: You won't screw up a kid by sleep training.