adesigar Posted October 30, 2025 Posted October 30, 2025 3 hours ago, Marco Van Basten said: Abraham Lincoln in my opinion was a horrible model. Under him, the country plunged into a civil war that costs hundreds of thousands of lives. Yes, slavery, which has existed since time immemorial is evil. However, why did you need a war to abolish it? He did not even try to bribe the South - we will pay you twice the market rate for every slave you free, however every single one slave in the South must be freed for this to work or the deal is off? Why wasn't this tried? Ah yes what a brilliant idea to strike a deal. Let’s give more money to evil people. So the north would have paid the south 2x for the slaves and then the south wouldn’t have just turned around and procured the same no of slaves and pocketed the difference? Thank god Lincoln wasn’t such a complete idiot and moron.
Marco Van Basten Posted October 30, 2025 Posted October 30, 2025 3 hours ago, LC said: My friend, put gently I think the accuracy of your post could be improved with a review of the historical record... If you're interested: https://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/disp_textbook.cfm?smtID=2&psid=3059 O'k, so if he didn't care about freeing the slaves, what was wrong with letting the South secede?
Marco Van Basten Posted October 30, 2025 Posted October 30, 2025 (edited) 3 minutes ago, adesigar said: Ah yes what a brilliant idea to strike a deal. Let’s give more money to evil people. So the north would have paid the south 2x for the slaves and then the south wouldn’t have just turned around and procured the same no of slaves and pocketed the difference? Thank god Lincoln wasn’t such a complete idiot and moron. Actually, importation of slaves was forbidden at that point into the US, and well before then British Empire ended the North Atlantic slave trade. As for calling slave owners evil, well, slavery existed since time immemorial. You and I can agree that slavery is immoral, but calling slave owners evil for owning slaves is like calling all of our ancestors evil - pretty much every human being is a descendant of both a slave and slave owner. Edited October 30, 2025 by Marco Van Basten
adesigar Posted October 30, 2025 Posted October 30, 2025 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Marco Van Basten said: Actually, importation of slaves was forbidden at that point into the US, and well before then British Empire ended the North Atlantic slave trade. As for calling slave owners evil, well, slavery existed since time immemorial. You and I can agree that slavery is immoral, but calling slave owners evil for owning slaves is like calling all of our ancestors evil - pretty much every human being is a descendant of both a slave and slave owner. Right because the people that practiced slavery wouldn’t ignore such laws. Oh wait they didn’t. Slavery was banned in 1808. Slaves were brought into the US uptil 1860. Edited October 30, 2025 by adesigar
Sweet Posted October 30, 2025 Posted October 30, 2025 23 minutes ago, Mephistopheles said: Well my point was in my original post that it's not about deportations but about the cruelty. If it was about deportations than Obama would be a MAGA hero. Villify one group of people to blame for all of life's miseries; is just one example amongst a myriad that shows we're on that authoritarian march. In a way I respect the diehard MAGAs, more so than the independents/moderates/"literally not seriously" folks who split hairs and bend over backwards to intellectualize these actions all the while missing the forest for the trees. Not saying this towards you by any means. Appreciate the back and forth. Obama’s family separation policy had young kids in what were described as ‘cages’ which seems to have been forgotten about. With respect to the differences. Under Obama and Biden there were caravans of migrants coming to the US. Many deportations took place at the border upon interception (more or less). Trump isn’t getting large number of migrants coming to the border. Instead the illegals he’s deporting are all around the country, very often caught and then released. That’s why you are seeing a surge of ICE in cities. The illegals being deported are those who know they shouldn’t be in the US, have been told to leave, and are refusing to do comply. The only recourse is for ICE to go door to door to get them.
cubsfan Posted October 30, 2025 Posted October 30, 2025 2 minutes ago, Sweet said: Obama’s family separation policy had young kids in what were described as ‘cages’ which seems to have been forgotten about. With respect to the differences. Under Obama and Biden there were caravans of migrants coming to the US. Many deportations took place at the border upon interception (more or less). Trump isn’t getting large number of migrants coming to the border. Instead the illegals he’s deporting are all around the country, very often caught and then released. That’s why you are seeing a surge of ICE in cities. The illegals being deported are those who know they shouldn’t be in the US, have been told to leave, and are refusing to do comply. The only recourse is for ICE to go door to door to get them. Yes, and the sanctuary cities that have broken federal law just end up making it even more cruel. By not honoring detainer requests for violent felons, they refuse to co-operate with ICE and endanger everyone. If they would simply turn over the criminals to ICE - it would all be so easy - but, no, they need to make it political - and in effect - harbor violent criminals.
Parsad Posted October 30, 2025 Posted October 30, 2025 6 hours ago, LC said: Just getting terrorists off the streets: I don't know the validity of that video, but if it is true...that's just one of the saddest things I've seen happen in the U.S. in the last few years! The U.S. would have definitely lost its way. Cheers!
Mephistopheles Posted October 30, 2025 Posted October 30, 2025 Just now, Sweet said: Obama’s family separation policy had young kids in what were described as ‘cages’ which seems to have been forgotten about. With respect to the differences. Under Obama and Biden there were caravans of migrants coming to the US. Many deportations took place at the border upon interception (more or less). Trump isn’t getting large number of migrants coming to the border. Instead the illegals he’s deporting are all around the country, very often caught and then released. That’s why you are seeing a surge of ICE in cities. The illegals being deported are those who know they shouldn’t be in the US, have been told to leave, and are refusing to do comply. The only recourse is for ICE to go door to door to get them. Yes will concede about the child separation thing under Obama. Nothing wrong with ICE. Again the problem is the cruelty and (arguably more importantly) the erosion of due process/rights - all in the broader picture of IMO authoritarian tendencies across the board unrelated to ICE. And by no means has anti-Constitutional stuff happened only under Trump. For example, NSA wiretapping was created under Bush and expanded under Obama who campaigned against it. Just in this case we have a clown who is surrounded by fascists. I don't think Trump himself is a fascist as much as he's self serving, luckily. But that means whomever kisses his ass gets their way no matter how terrible. I'm sure little Stephen Miller feels like a big man when he sees his ICE thugs zip tie 12 year olds!
Parsad Posted October 30, 2025 Posted October 30, 2025 4 hours ago, Marco Van Basten said: You clearly don't know what Gestapo was. If ICE was Gestapo, you'd be lined against a wall and shot just for criticizing them. Nope, it started with them displacing and isolating Jews...restricting their rights, due process, where they could work, how much in assets they could have, even whom they could associate with. Fascism usually has a slow build to the eventual horrific outcome if not curtailed! Cheers!
Parsad Posted October 30, 2025 Posted October 30, 2025 1 hour ago, Mephistopheles said: Deporting illegals is great Treating people inhumanely is awful Denying Constitutional rights (for illegals or for US citizens) is terrifying All of the above can be true all at once And yes there have been enough documented cases of the cruelty with a few minutes of research +1! Cheers!
Parsad Posted October 30, 2025 Posted October 30, 2025 51 minutes ago, Sweet said: I’m aware of some of these cases already because they have been posted in this thread. Enough documented cases to what though - stop ICE doing their job? Fairly call them Gestapo? What is your point? There are different ways of completing a task. The point is that the current administration is pushing the limits of the Bill of Rights to complete their task, and are the inhumane examples truly necessary to accomplish that task...like picking up an elementary student without informing her family (if that video is accurate). If that was my niece or nephew, I would have gone through that group of ICE members regardless of the outcome for me. Just no way any fucker is taking one of them like that! Cheers!
Mephistopheles Posted October 30, 2025 Posted October 30, 2025 7 minutes ago, Parsad said: Nope, it started with them displacing and isolating Jews...restricting their rights, due process, where they could work, how much in assets they could have, even whom they could associate with. Fascism usually has a slow build to the eventual horrific outcome if not curtailed! Cheers! Yes, boiling frog. And in this case the frogs are the non MAGA, non TDS spineless and bystanders. How anyone with a brain can justify having this maniac in office after Jan 6 is insane! Funnily enough, I'm sure none of this group of shrewd value investors would want Trump running any of their companies or their portfolio. lol
Parsad Posted October 30, 2025 Posted October 30, 2025 12 minutes ago, Mephistopheles said: Yes will concede about the child separation thing under Obama. Nothing wrong with ICE. Again the problem is the cruelty and (arguably more importantly) the erosion of due process/rights - all in the broader picture of IMO authoritarian tendencies across the board unrelated to ICE. And by no means has anti-Constitutional stuff happened only under Trump. For example, NSA wiretapping was created under Bush and expanded under Obama who campaigned against it. Just in this case we have a clown who is surrounded by fascists. I don't think Trump himself is a fascist as much as he's self serving, luckily. But that means whomever kisses his ass gets their way no matter how terrible. I'm sure little Stephen Miller feels like a big man when he sees his ICE thugs zip tie 12 year olds! +1! That being said, under Obama, children were still being processed through the system...not simply just taken away and deported, then reunited in another country with their family. Cheers!
Parsad Posted October 30, 2025 Posted October 30, 2025 Just now, Mephistopheles said: Yes, boiling frog. And in this case the frogs are the non MAGA, non TDS spineless and bystanders. How anyone with a brain can justify having this maniac in office after Jan 6 is insane! Funnily enough, I'm sure none of this group of shrewd value investors would want Trump running any of their companies or their portfolio. lol Nope! But they are ok with him running the biggest economy in the world. Bizarre! Cheers!
Castanza Posted October 30, 2025 Posted October 30, 2025 6 hours ago, Cigarbutt said: Wasn't Abraham Lincoln a reasonable model here? Wasn't he able to navigate a difficult period bridging ideals with the general public (with sometimes very obvious incoherences and even contradictions)? I think you should take a closer look at Lincoln and the period before you make that comparison. I’d suggest the book Battle Cry of Freedom by James McPherson. To me we are much closer to McCarthyism, Midnight in America (post WWII), or even the Nixon era. America has survived far worse than what we are experiencing currently.
Castanza Posted October 30, 2025 Posted October 30, 2025 44 minutes ago, Parsad said: +1! Cheers! Whatever the solution to all of this…removing the humanity of those being targeted is not a good first foot forward. Most atrocities are carried out by Ordinary people…a good thing to keep in the back of your mind.
cubsfan Posted October 30, 2025 Posted October 30, 2025 Funny, no one chooses to answer the most basic question: why do you condone states and cities disobeying Federal Law?
Sweet Posted October 30, 2025 Posted October 30, 2025 1 hour ago, Parsad said: Nope, it started with them displacing and isolating Jews...restricting their rights, due process, where they could work, how much in assets they could have, even whom they could associate with. Fascism usually has a slow build to the eventual horrific outcome if not curtailed! Cheers! The comparisons with the Jews in Nazi Germany are truly silly. Before WW2 most of the Jews were in Germany legally and committed no crime. Illegal immigrants have broken federal law and are not citizens. I’m not aware of any country that doesn’t deport or have laws which punish illegal entry and stay. Some, including Russia, Austria, Singapore and India impose significant jail time and nobody says a dam thing about it.
Parsad Posted October 30, 2025 Posted October 30, 2025 48 minutes ago, cubsfan said: Funny, no one chooses to answer the most basic question: why do you condone states and cities disobeying Federal Law? At every level, from the citizen right up to the Federal Government, there are laws and rights in place for everyone...including cities and states. They are well within their rights and laws to act for or against any decision they believe impeded or goes against those rights and laws. That's how the country was designed, how the laws were designed. And exactly what the courts are for. Cheers!
Parsad Posted October 30, 2025 Posted October 30, 2025 14 minutes ago, Sweet said: The comparisons with the Jews in Nazi Germany are truly silly. Before WW2 most of the Jews were in Germany legally and committed no crime. Illegal immigrants have broken federal law and are not citizens. I’m not aware of any country that doesn’t deport or have laws which punish illegal entry and stay. Some, including Russia, Austria, Singapore and India impose significant jail time and nobody says a dam thing about it. One, you brought up the Gestapo comment. Two, even illegal immigrants have the right to due process. If you have a problem with that, then take it up with the courts, which in many cases are being bypassed! Cheers!
cubsfan Posted October 30, 2025 Posted October 30, 2025 12 minutes ago, Parsad said: At every level, from the citizen right up to the Federal Government, there are laws and rights in place for everyone...including cities and states. They are well within their rights and laws to act for or against any decision they believe impeded or goes against those rights and laws. That's how the country was designed, how the laws were designed. And exactly what the courts are for. Cheers! Well that is obviously wrong. Federal Immigration law, enacted by Congress, is being violated in hundreds of sanctuary cities and states.
Parsad Posted October 30, 2025 Posted October 30, 2025 1 minute ago, cubsfan said: Well that is obviously wrong. Federal Immigration law, enacted by Congress, is being violated in hundreds of sanctuary cities and states. Yes, and that is what the courts are for. If the courts tell you that you have to pay a $100,000 fine for something, you have the right to not pay and appeal that. You even have the right not to pay it all all and the let the court system move through the process to prosecute you or seize your assets. That is why the system is designed the way it is. Cheers!
Sweet Posted October 30, 2025 Posted October 30, 2025 Just now, Parsad said: Yes, and that is what the courts are for. If the courts tell you that you have to pay a $100,000 fine for something, you have the right to not pay and appeal that. You even have the right not to pay it all all and the let the court system move through the process to prosecute you or seize your assets. That is why the system is designed the way it is. Cheers! Question. Other than proving you are here legally, what other due process is required?
cubsfan Posted October 30, 2025 Posted October 30, 2025 16 minutes ago, Parsad said: Yes, and that is what the courts are for. If the courts tell you that you have to pay a $100,000 fine for something, you have the right to not pay and appeal that. You even have the right not to pay it all all and the let the court system move through the process to prosecute you or seize your assets. That is why the system is designed the way it is. Cheers! Huh - so they are violating Federal Law - and that's ok, even if the laws were passed by the Congress? So we call all just go out and break any laws that we feel like - and let the courts catch up to us. Sounds like a great way to insure the destruction of a civilization. Laws just don't matter.
Parsad Posted October 30, 2025 Posted October 30, 2025 25 minutes ago, Sweet said: Question. Other than proving you are here legally, what other due process is required? Really, you're asking that? https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/about-immigration/due-process-and-courts/ Cheers!
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