Interview With Francis Chou

[Ballinvarosig Investors]

http://www.canadianbusiness.com/investing/francis-chou-value-investing/

 

Francis Chou says he owes his career to the Financial Post. In 1979, a 25-year-old Chou, then working as a Bell telephone technician, opened up the paper and gazed upon an article about value investing. He knew nothing about stocks, but the piece spoke to him. It reminded him of growing up in India and having to shop for groceries for his family, where he was constantly comparing prices. If he saw a bag of rice at one place, he’d go to another to look for the same thing at a lower price. Value investing, he says, is almost the same exercise. “You don’t haggle on price, but when you go to a store and you find a good product for 40% off, you buy it,” he says.

 

Why this veteran value investor has half his portfolio in cash right now

Chou started reading as much as he could on value investing. In 1981 he asked six of his Bell Canada colleagues if they would be willing to invest with him. He put about $50,000 in the market and started making money. While most of those first clients have long since cashed out, one client gave him $80,000 to invest later that year and that person is now worth $5 million, says Chou, who adds that he’s been doubling his money about every five and a half years.

 

Chou has become a renowned value investor—in 2015, Barron’s called him one of the World’s Best Investors. He also helped Prem Watsa, a colleague at boutique investment firm Gardiner Watson in the 1980s, understand why insurance companies are good investments. He was working with Watsa when the latter bought Markel Financial Holdings, the precursor to Fairfax Financial Holdings Ltd. (TSX: FFH).

 

With only a high school diploma, Chou obtained his Certified Financial Analyst designation in 1985 and registered as a portfolio manager and investment counsel. A year later he officially launched Chou Associates Management and its flagship product, the Chou Associates Fund, which evolved out of the private placement fund his Bell Canada colleagues invested in.

 

Back then value investing was relatively easy. People didn’t invest in stocks the same way they do today and good companies priced at six times earnings were the norm. The flip side was that stocks didn’t move a whole lot. “They didn’t go anywhere for years,” he says, “but you could keep hunting for bargains.”

 

Today, the opposite is true. Stocks have seen enormous gains and price-to-earnings ratios have skyrocketed. Now, companies trading at 22 times earnings are a dime a dozen, he says. That’s made his job a lot more difficult. “It’s much harder to find bargains,” he says. “It’s so different.” Other value managers are buying stocks at higher valuations, but Chou is a deep-value investor who tries to find bigger discounts than his peers. He typically wants to own a company that’s trading at a 40% discount to what it’s really worth. If the markdown isn’t steep enough, he won’t buy, even in this environment.

 

That said, deals do pop up. Most of the companies Chou owns have seen their values drop for some reason—maybe the sector has fallen out of favour, as we saw with oil and gas last year, or a company has missed an earnings target, or there’s a funding or liquidity issue. Whatever challenge the business is facing, though, it should only be temporary. “We want companies that can overcome those problems in time,” he says.

 

Of course, it’s impossible to foresee if a business will indeed rise from the ashes, which is why Chou does plenty of due diligence before buying. First and foremost, he wants his companies to have positive cash flow and the ability to grow earnings. Management needs to know what it’s doing, too. The top executives are the ones who will determine whether the company realizes its value. Chou also thinks about all the things that could impair intrinsic value—maybe something will prevent earnings from growing, for instance. “We always look at what could go wrong,” he says.

 

The Top 10 Best Value Stocks for 2016

If he ends up making the wrong choice, then a failure won’t affect his portfolio as much as it would someone who bought the stock at fair value. “You need to have that cushion, that margin of safety, against a mistake in your judgment,” he says. One company that currently fits his style is Resolute Forest Products (NYSE: RFP), a Montreal-based pulp, paper and wood products producer. The firm has had a rough go of it since the recession, with prices for all its products declining. Yet Chou doesn’t think it should be trading under US$5 a share. “That means the market cap of the company is selling for less than US$400 million, but it has consolidated sales of close to US$4 billion,” he says. He thinks that each individual segment could sell for US$400 million alone. If it continues to sell as much as it has, the market will eventually see the value in this business. For now, he says, “It’s very undervalued.”

 

In 2002, Chou started buying junk bonds, which, he says, aren’t that different from value-priced equities. He’s looking for companies that have gone bankrupt and whose notes are now trading at 60 cents on the dollar. But he wants to buy that debt at about 20 cents. He scooped up a lot of loans to these kinds of companies, mostly oil and gas, nine months ago. (One he described in his last annual investor letter was Dallas-based Exco Resources. “If the company restructures or goes into bankruptcy, the recovery value of the bond is greater than the current price,” he wrote.) With equity valuations at historic highs and government bonds barely eking out a return, junk bonds offer solid yields at a good price, he reasons.

 

At the moment, no sector stands out in terms of valuation—it’s all expensive, he says—but he’s being patient. He did buy some stock in January 2016, when markets corrected, and he’s holding about 20% of his portfolio in cash that he intends to deploy when the companies he wants to own take a dive. And they will get cheaper, he says. He’s not sure when, but, as he learned on his shopping runs in India, there’s always a better price around the corner. “There are cycles and periods where you can buy stocks cheaply,” he says. “Maybe the whole market doesn’t come down, but there will be pockets of opportunity.”

[dyow]

I keep hearing about this guy but what are his historical returns?

 

[augustabound]

I keep hearing about this guy but what are his historical returns?

 

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Chou+funds+returns

 

[Gregmal]

I keep hearing about this guy but what are his historical returns?

 

After big concentrated investments in RFP, SD, BBRY, and SHLD, I can't believe he's still in business.

[dyow]

I keep hearing about this guy but what are his historical returns?

 

After big concentrated investments in RFP, SD, BBRY, and SHLD, I can't believe he's still in business.

 

Yeah, the article calls him one of the "savviest value investors" in the world.  That is a pretty big claim. 

[dyow]

I keep hearing about this guy but what are his historical returns?

 

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Chou+funds+returns

 

incredible, internet wizard

[augustabound]

I keep hearing about this guy but what are his historical returns?

 

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Chou+funds+returns

 

incredible, internet wizard

 

Just curious what dyow means?

[shhughes1116]

I keep hearing about this guy but what are his historical returns?

 

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Chou+funds+returns

 

incredible, internet wizard

 

Just curious what dyow means?

 

Do Your Own Work

[augustabound]

I keep hearing about this guy but what are his historical returns?

 

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Chou+funds+returns

 

incredible, internet wizard

 

Just curious what dyow means?

 

Do Your Own Work

I know what it means. I just find it ironic it was so hard to put 3 words into Google. It was easier to ask someone else the question and await an answer. Not doing your own work.

[dyow]

I wasn't trying to insult you.

 

OK....I shouldn't have asked that question.....and yes i should have googled it.

 

Do your own work is a reminder to myself, and i did not do my own work.

 

 

[augustabound]

I wasn't trying to insult you.

 

OK....I shouldn't have asked that question.....and yes i should have googled it.

 

Do your own work is a reminder to myself, and i did not do my own work.

 

;D  It's all good. I wasn't insulted, I was just struck with the irony because I knew when I saw your screen name what it meant.

 

 

[Guest]

I like Chou a lot but his performance is pretty poor (at least for his US based fund).

 

http://www.morningstar.com/funds/xnas/choex/quote.html

 

Keep in mind the comparative lines on the morningstar chart are moderate/allocation funds - not the S&P 500. Against that, it's even worse (nearly 10% annually worse for the 5 year period).

 

Over the past 5 years he's only beaten 4% of peers. I own it in my 401k for almost a year and it's been one of the worst performers (and I've owned a little in an IRA for about 5 years (ughhhh).

[KinAlberta]

I keep hearing about this guy but what are his historical returns?

 

After big concentrated investments in RFP, SD, BBRY, and SHLD, I can't believe he's still in business.

 

Has SHLD actually been a dud?

 

Some investors have got the remains of SHLD, Seritage and $32 in other distributions according the Berkowitz. Not sure what that amounts to though

[fareastwarriors]

I like Chou a lot but his performance is pretty poor (at least for his US based fund).

 

http://www.morningstar.com/funds/xnas/choex/quote.html

 

Keep in mind the comparative lines on the morningstar chart are moderate/allocation funds - not the S&P 500. Against that, it's even worse (nearly 10% annually worse for the 5 year period).

 

Over the past 5 years he's only beaten 4% of peers. I own it in my 401k for almost a year and it's been one of the worst performers (and I've owned a little in an IRA for about 5 years (ughhhh).

 

And the expense ratio is way too high....

[Guest]

The stated expense ratio is pretty high (but not bad for a pretty small fund). He actually waived most of it last year (and even reimbursed it from 2015). The guy has incredible integrity.

 

http://chouamerica.com/pdf/Chou%20America%20Mutual%20Funds%202015.05.01%20as%20supplemented%202015.09.25%20and%202016.02.18%20(Prospectus).pdf

[educatedidiot]

Francis Chou's latest 13F is out.  He bought Sandridge Energy, added to his VRX, and sold some Sears (among other portfolio tweaks):

http://www.rocketfinancial.com/Holdings.aspx?fID=8456

[Ballinvarosig Investors]

Francis Chou's latest 13F is out.  He bought Sandridge Energy, added to his VRX, and sold some Sears (among other portfolio tweaks):

http://www.rocketfinancial.com/Holdings.aspx?fID=8456

I am guessing he didn't buy Sandridge, rather some of the debt he held was converted to equity.

[FFHWatcher]

I wasn't trying to insult you.

 

OK....I shouldn't have asked that question.....and yes i should have googled it.

 

Do your own work is a reminder to myself, and i did not do my own work.

 

;D  It's all good. I wasn't insulted, I was just struck with the irony because I knew when I saw your screen name what it meant.

 

Favourite COFB posts in a while.  I can also use that Google Link that shows how to type it into Google.

[longlake95]

Francis Chou's latest 13F is out.  He bought Sandridge Energy, added to his VRX, and sold some Sears (among other portfolio tweaks):

http://www.rocketfinancial.com/Holdings.aspx?fID=8456

 

Hey! educatedsmart guy: saw your link for Chou's 13F, that didn't interest me as much as where you got the data. I checked out rocketfinancial.com, it's awesome. no screen clutter, easy to read and well organized...probably too good to be true, they will probably start charging - I'd even consider paying. lol. thanks.

[kmukul]

Yes great site, went straight to my favorites, there are great sites for indian markets for us markets I am still trying to find which is good for long term shareholders

[educatedidiot]

It's also great for getting data on business segments.  With Disney for example:

http://www.rocketfinancial.com/Overview.aspx?fID=5102&pw=168324

 

You can click on Media Networks to see the performance of that specific segment, and then drill-down even further to see how the Cable Networks are performing vs the Broadcasting operations

[longlake95]

Ok...that is very cool...the ability to drill down. However, it seems not all the data is available for many companies. I noticed the data for Canadian companies to be thin. Hopefully that will improve over time. But it's a great start.

[OracleofCarolina]

http://chouamerica.com/index.html

 

Annual report is out for Chou America fund.

 

Disappointing run so far for Chou Opportunity fund

 

since inception(7/1/10), Chou 4.35%, S&P 500 15.15

[Guest]

It's somewhat amazing (in a bad way) that he can have a decent chuck of money (for a mutual fund) in tarp warrants and still lose money last year.

 

Regrettably I own the fund (bought around the time was introduced...ouch) and quite a bit larger amount in 401k (started buying in March of last year). I'm hoping for some type of mean reversion but have been wrong so far. The fact that he waives the management fee at least makes me feel better.

[Jurgis]

Anybody has opinions about his income fund? Looks like a lot of risky bonds... but is he good in investing into them?

 

I guess I should look at past reports on why the fund went down in 2014-2015. Probably energy bonds?..