The Joy of Less, A Minimalist Living Guide - Francine Jay

[racemize]

Buffett once phoned up Pabrai (after Pabrai had bought that lunch with him at auction) and asked him for his best idea.  Pabrai gave him Potash Corp.  Months later, Buffett told him he looked into it, but decided against it.  I can't remember why - something to do with not liking its monopolistic nature (I know that doesn't make sense).

 

He didn't like that it involved a cartel.

[Parsad]

You guys aren't psychologists or therapists, so I'm uncomfortably surprised by the amount of venom or at least, impolite bullying, thrown at ScottHall.  Very surprised by some of the people on here with the comments. 

 

The courtesy and humility of Buffett or Prem should be one of the lessons you guys learn, alongside the ability to return 15% annualized.  Live and let live people!  Neither would have said the things you guys have said if Scott Hall described his lifestyle. 

 

Personally, do what makes you happy Scott!  I live in a 4,000 square foot house, but during the holidays, my favorite thing to do was turn on the fireplace and sleep on a makeshift bed of three blankets near it on the floor, while Bloomberg played quietly on the big-screen tv and I could see my beautiful Noble Fir fresh Christmas tree lit up.  I rarely sleep in my bed...often on the living room sofa or the family room sofa.  My family thinks I'm crazy, but I love sleeping like that. 

 

When we have a big family party or wedding, etc, everyone takes a room when you have so many guests over, but for several of us, we like to camp out in the family room and sleep there, while talking till 6-7 in the morning reminiscing.  It's a hell of a lot of fun!  So to each to his own...you never know what things, even the simple things in life, make people happy!  Cheers!

 

   

[rkbabang]

ScottHall, wow that's pretty hardcore.  I think its great that you can do it.  I couldn't.  I'll admit that if I was single I could get away with much less in the home furnishings department, but there are still some basics I'd have.  I'd need a table to eat, a desk for my computer, a comfortable reading chair, and, yes, a bed.  I wouldn't necessarily need a frame, headboard, and all that, but I'd at least get a good thick Bob-o-pedic mattress, put it on the floor, throw a sheet set on it and a good blanket and pillow.  I couldn't sleep on the ground every day.  There's nothing wrong with being asexual either, it probably means you have much less trouble in your life than the average person.  There are pluses and minuses to everything.

 

[Liberty]

well i dont really give a shit either way, i am just curious. But you could make the same argument you are making for a crackwhore. Or for someone who is depressed. Or for anyone with mental issues really. People dont work perfectly rational like you say. they can put themselves in shitty situations and lie to themselves that they are perfectly happy. Or that it is the 'best' option if they are trapped in it by their mental issues or circumstances.

 

I met a few people who claimed they werent interested in sex, and I was pretty sure they were all lying to themselves. Because if you really arent interested in women, then their beauty shouldn't phase you much right? And usually it did, and they were awkward as hell around good looking women. And they also appeared sort of frustrated usually with a bit of a short fuse.

 

I also knew someone who was in debt and after a while he started claiming that money wasn't important at all in life. But he was clearly pretty jealous of my situation.  It is more sort of an ego defense system that kicks in after a while after you start to think you will never attain it anyway. You will just make yourself believe that you dont need it.

 

Then there is the person who went through a bad break up, and now claims relationships wont make him or her happy anymore. Can go on about this.

 

There is a large gap between knowing what makes you happy, and what actually makes you happy in the end. And unless you gave it all a serious try, you dont really know what your missing I think.

 

People lie to themselves for lots of reasons. That was my reason for posting that.

 

1) You didn't need to be rude about it.

 

2) You have no facts at all to make you think this was the case here.

 

3) By that standard, maybe you are a crackwhore projecting your own problems on others. Who knows, right?

[rkbabang]

well i dont really give a shit either way, i am just curious. But you could make the same argument you are making for a crackwhore. Or for someone who is depressed. Or for anyone with mental issues really. People dont work perfectly rational like you say. they can put themselves in shitty situations and lie to themselves that they are perfectly happy. Or that it is the 'best' option if they are trapped in it by their mental issues or circumstances.

 

I met a few people who claimed they werent interested in sex, and I was pretty sure they were all lying to themselves. Because if you really arent interested in women, then their beauty shouldn't phase you much right? And usually it did, and they were awkward as hell around good looking women. And they also appeared sort of frustrated usually with a bit of a short fuse.

 

I also knew someone who was in debt and after a while he started claiming that money wasn't important at all in life. But he was clearly pretty jealous of my situation.  It is more sort of an ego defense system that kicks in after a while after you start to think you will never attain it anyway. You will just make yourself believe that you dont need it.

 

Then there is the person who went through a bad break up, and now claims relationships wont make him or her happy anymore. Can go on about this.

 

There is a large gap between knowing what makes you happy, and what actually makes you happy in the end. And unless you gave it all a serious try, you dont really know what your missing I think.

 

People lie to themselves for lots of reasons. That was my reason for posting that.

 

1) You didn't need to be rude about it.

 

2) You have no facts at all to make you think this was the case here.

 

3) By that standard, maybe you are a crackwhore projecting your own problems on others. Who knows, right?

 

My theory, and this could be total incorrect, is that sex is such a strong drive in most people that they simply can't understand people for whom it is different.  This is why homosexuality causes such strong feelings in many heterosexual people.  They can't relate, they refuse to believe it even exists in some cases.  The same applies to someone saying they have no interest.  That is so far outside of what most of us can relate to that many will simply refuse to believe it or be offended by it.  People are generally tolerant only within limits.  Once you go outside those limits and start talking about something they don't/can't understand the venom starts flowing.  You can see this with sex, religion, and politics.  If you go too far outside a person's tolerance limits a valve blows and all rational thinking stops.

 

[writser]

What I read.

 

My theory, and this could be total incorrect, is that sex is such a strong drive in most people that they simply can't understand people for whom it is different.  This is why homosexuality causes such strong feelings in many heterosexual people.  They can't relate, they refuse to believe it even exists in some cases.  The same applies to someone saying they have no internet.  That is so far outside of what most of us can relate to that many will simply refuse to believe it or be offended by it.  People are generally tolerant only within limits.  Once you go outside those limits and start talking about something they don't/can't understand the venom starts flowing.  You can see this with sex, religion, and politics.  If you go too far outside a person's tolerance limits a valve blows and all rational thinking stops.

[yadayada]

well i dont really give a shit either way, i am just curious. But you could make the same argument you are making for a crackwhore. Or for someone who is depressed. Or for anyone with mental issues really. People dont work perfectly rational like you say. they can put themselves in shitty situations and lie to themselves that they are perfectly happy. Or that it is the 'best' option if they are trapped in it by their mental issues or circumstances.

 

I met a few people who claimed they werent interested in sex, and I was pretty sure they were all lying to themselves. Because if you really arent interested in women, then their beauty shouldn't phase you much right? And usually it did, and they were awkward as hell around good looking women. And they also appeared sort of frustrated usually with a bit of a short fuse.

 

I also knew someone who was in debt and after a while he started claiming that money wasn't important at all in life. But he was clearly pretty jealous of my situation.  It is more sort of an ego defense system that kicks in after a while after you start to think you will never attain it anyway. You will just make yourself believe that you dont need it.

 

Then there is the person who went through a bad break up, and now claims relationships wont make him or her happy anymore. Can go on about this.

 

There is a large gap between knowing what makes you happy, and what actually makes you happy in the end. And unless you gave it all a serious try, you dont really know what your missing I think.

 

People lie to themselves for lots of reasons. That was my reason for posting that.

 

1) You didn't need to be rude about it.

 

2) You have no facts at all to make you think this was the case here.

 

3) By that standard, maybe you are a crackwhore projecting your own problems on others. Who knows, right?

no but whenever someone claims they dont need things like friends or sex I usually assume they are lying to themselves or to me. 90% lie, 10% it is actually true. And that is just from experience. Actually being like that, and not having those impulses is just statistically so rare. Not sure how that would make me a crackwhore.

 

More power to scott if hes the last 10% and is actually happy with this.

[Liberty]

People not interested in sex or stuff are probably more common than good investors...

[matjone]

I suspect ScottHall  doesn't really give a damn what we say.  After seeing this thread I checked out his twitter and he seems pretty focused on investing.  While we were bickering over whether he should buy furniture he probably just made some more money.

 

I do envy him a little and I remember fantasizing about going to live in a cabin in the woods after reading Walden in H.S.  I lived a pretty spartan lifestyle while I was single, but once I moved in with my girlfriend that all went out the window.  Roughly 75% of the items in our house aren't necessary from my utilitarian male point of view.

[ukvalueinvestment]

What's his twitter handle?  I like to follow independent minded value investors...

[matjone]

it's in his signature

[yadayada]

People not interested in sex or stuff are probably more common than good investors...

yeah but thats the thing, I have met quite a few who claimed that. And in every case they didnt even try it once. I had a neighbour who was extremly cheap. He wouldnt heat up his food because that cost energy lol (and then load up triple when he ate with us). He would buy jeans for really cheap. Claiming it was ridicilous that people paid for brands. Then once he tried on a pair of levi's that were like 4x the price, and now he only wears those.

 

I know a girl who claimed she wasn't interested in sex. Then when she tried it once when she was like 23, she turned into this sex craving maniac afterwards, and completly changed her view. Same for 2 guys, and one has a girlfriend now I think.

 

I knew a vegetarian who litterally never tried meat, then came around when he tried it once.

 

And I know from personal experience how you can just fool yourself into thinking you dont like or need something and just impair how much you really can get out of life.

 

I was judging a bit prematurely here I guess. But my point is, people think they dont need or like something and you  never really know untill you tried it properly.

[BTShine]

Oh and someone give this scott guy a hug.

 

I really don't need your or anyone else's sympathy. I'm better off in life than most.

 

Agreed.  You are definitely better off in life than most!  Congrats, you seem very content and intellectually curious -- a fabulous combination in my humble opinion. 

[watsa_is_a_randian_hero]

This is a forum that has a lot of free-thinkers and contrarians...but also a lot of people who strive to maximize their personal net worth and professional success.  I would argue that for most people, networking will add to this success, and that for most people, networking would be more easily achieved by not creating an unsettling impression.  I would argue that to a degree, conforming to societal standards and expectations would be beneficial if one's goals involve maximizing net worth and professional success.

 

That's a different topic, but an interesting one.

 

I think it depends. Was Buffett advantaged or disadvantaged by having such a different lifestyle from most other money managers? By staying in Omaha rather than going to Wall Street, etc, some could say he wasn't networking properly and wasn't plugged in the "deal flow" or whatever, but others could say he was avoiding the echo chamber and groupthink and reducing pressure of activity for activity's sake.

 

Later in life he got pretty social thanks mostly to Kay Graham, but in his early decades he was a lot more awkward and isolated, and definitely had a very frugal lifestyle for a billionaire (buying hail-damaged used cars, never moving to a bigger house, not eating anything fancy, etc).

 

I think Michael Burry is also a pretty unusual person, and that seemed to have helped him see things differently and do things that others couldn't be bothered to do.

 

In the end, if you're good at what you do, have integrity and other virtues, people will overlook almost anything. And those who don't, you probably don't care about them anyway...

 

I almost envy Scott, I know that my investing would probably improve if I didn't spend so much time thinking about sex...

 

Warren Buffett I think was an uber-networker.  He was very social, and even took Dale Carnegie classes.  He regularly exchanged ideas with other investors, and did live in NYC working for Ben Graham for a bit.  I think Warren Buffett would not have been nearly as successful if it were not for this. 

[watsa_is_a_randian_hero]

Networking is only really necessary if you're not an investing genius.  Someone like Buffett got by fine at first, in small cap land, because there was/is so much opportunity out there if you're good.  Now he has a network of people who bring him stuff.

 

This is a misnomer on buffett.  As mentioned in my last post, I believe he would not have been anywhere near as successful had he not been an uber-networker.  You say "he got by fine at first in small cap land"...but that is not true.  He made his millions managing Buffett Partnerships, outside money for dozens of other clients that he earned performance fees on.  If he were only compounding his own money and never managed outside money and never exchanged ideas with other investors and never started buying entire businesses (dealmaking as opposed to stockpicking takes social skills/networking) he would have done well for himself, but he would have never been a billionaire. 

 

[ukvalueinvestment]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.  He did the Dale Carnegie course because he was scared of public speaking.  He said he was a terrible salesman because he looked and sounded like a 12 year old (something like that).

 

Re the partnerships, a lot of his original investors were friends and family (not much networking required), and later investors came on board because of performance.

 

Look, I'm not saying the guy was an anti social recluse, but you can't really be an uber networker living in Omaha, can you?

 

I think I read that his final partnership was worth $600mln in today's money.  That sounds pretty small to mid cap to me - I know he invested in AMEX.

 

My idea of a networker is someone who is at the bar at a conference, handing out business cards....

 

Back to Scott Hall - I found his twitter, the guy's clearly good.  But I found evidence of one expense... a Capital IQ!! They're quite costly, right?

[Liberty]

yeah but thats the thing, I have met quite a few who claimed that. And in every case they didnt even try it once. I had a neighbour who was extremly cheap. He wouldnt heat up his food because that cost energy lol (and then load up triple when he ate with us). He would buy jeans for really cheap. Claiming it was ridicilous that people paid for brands. Then once he tried on a pair of levi's that were like 4x the price, and now he only wears those.

 

I know a girl who claimed she wasn't interested in sex. Then when she tried it once when she was like 23, she turned into this sex craving maniac afterwards, and completly changed her view. Same for 2 guys, and one has a girlfriend now I think.

 

I knew a vegetarian who litterally never tried meat, then came around when he tried it once.

 

And I know from personal experience how you can just fool yourself into thinking you dont like or need something and just impair how much you really can get out of life.

 

I was judging a bit prematurely here I guess. But my point is, people think they dont need or like something and you  never really know untill you tried it properly.

 

But unlike these people, you don't know Scott, so you have no reason to assume he's lying to us or to himself anymore than you have reasons to assume that any other person here is lying or mistaken about anything else. This makes you sound like those people who can't understand that some people are gay ("they should just try sleeping with someone of the other sex"), and to me that sounds very patronizing.

[Liberty]

This is a misnomer on buffett.  As mentioned in my last post, I believe he would not have been anywhere near as successful had he not been an uber-networker.  You say "he got by fine at first in small cap land"...but that is not true.  He made his millions managing Buffett Partnerships, outside money for dozens of other clients that he earned performance fees on.  If he were only compounding his own money and never managed outside money and never exchanged ideas with other investors and never started buying entire businesses (dealmaking as opposed to stockpicking takes social skills/networking) he would have done well for himself, but he would have never been a billionaire.

 

If you read his bios and listen to his interviews, you'll learn that he literally vomited from public speaking at first, that during social events he would go in another room and read annual reports, etc. He got over all that over time (Carnegie, Kay Graham), but that's certainly not where he started, not his natural inclination. I think he say that it could be a useful tool for him so he set out to consciously acquire those skills.

[rkbabang]

What I read.

 

My theory, and this could be total incorrect, is that sex is such a strong drive in most people that they simply can't understand people for whom it is different.  This is why homosexuality causes such strong feelings in many heterosexual people.  They can't relate, they refuse to believe it even exists in some cases.  The same applies to someone saying they have no internet.  That is so far outside of what most of us can relate to that many will simply refuse to believe it or be offended by it.  People are generally tolerant only within limits.  Once you go outside those limits and start talking about something they don't/can't understand the venom starts flowing.  You can see this with sex, religion, and politics.  If you go too far outside a person's tolerance limits a valve blows and all rational thinking stops.

 

I'm not quite sure what you mean.  I'm 41 years old, I lived about half my life without the internet, so I can certainly imagine it.

[Rabbitisrich]

Yeah, there a quite a few anecdotes that depict Buffett as being extremely sensitive and prone to anxiety. Even fairly recently, he pulled out of a championship partners bridge tourney, right before the match, because of self-doubt.

[watsa_is_a_randian_hero]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.  He did the Dale Carnegie course because he was scared of public speaking.  He said he was a terrible salesman because he looked and sounded like a 12 year old (something like that).

 

Re the partnerships, a lot of his original investors were friends and family (not much networking required), and later investors came on board because of performance.

 

Look, I'm not saying the guy was an anti social recluse, but you can't really be an uber networker living in Omaha, can you?

 

I think I read that his final partnership was worth $600mln in today's money.  That sounds pretty small to mid cap to me - I know he invested in AMEX.

 

My idea of a networker is someone who is at the bar at a conference, handing out business cards....

 

Back to Scott Hall - I found his twitter, the guy's clearly good.  But I found evidence of one expense... a Capital IQ!! They're quite costly, right?

 

He started with friend/family money, but then expanded. 

 

600mm aum - but aum size doesn't dictate the size of the companies you invest in

 

your idea of a networker as someone at the bar at a conference handing out business cards is my idea of a sh*tty salesperson.  maybe our difference of opinion lies in a difference in our definitions of "networker"

 

Its myth that he got to where he is now based purely on book smarts and researching stocks like a recluse.  He exchanged investor ideas, recruited partners/clients AUM, got access to company management (which is no easy thing), orchestrated deal-making.  People downplay his networking skills (or social skills, if you'd prefer that term) as a role in his success...I'm not sure why.    The guy deserves credit for it. 

 

 

[watsa_is_a_randian_hero]

This is a misnomer on buffett.  As mentioned in my last post, I believe he would not have been anywhere near as successful had he not been an uber-networker.  You say "he got by fine at first in small cap land"...but that is not true.  He made his millions managing Buffett Partnerships, outside money for dozens of other clients that he earned performance fees on.  If he were only compounding his own money and never managed outside money and never exchanged ideas with other investors and never started buying entire businesses (dealmaking as opposed to stockpicking takes social skills/networking) he would have done well for himself, but he would have never been a billionaire.

 

If you read his bios and listen to his interviews, you'll learn that he literally vomited from public speaking at first, that during social events he would go in another room and read annual reports, etc. He got over all that over time (Carnegie, Kay Graham), but that's certainly not where he started, not his natural inclination. I think he say that it could be a useful tool for him so he set out to consciously acquire those skills.

 

I've read that as well...I think it was mentioned in Snowball.  But I believe Snowball also highlighted that him "getting over it over time" (as you say) was instrumental in his success.

 

Also, there is a difference between public speaking fears and having good social skills.  The skillset of getting your foot in the door to interview management, or meeting/exchanging ideas with other investors such as Munger (which was only one of many he did this with) is a different skillset than public speaking.

[Liberty]

Its myth that he got to where he is now based purely on book smarts and researching stocks like a recluse.  He exchanged investor ideas, recruited partners/clients AUM, got access to company management (which is no easy thing), orchestrated deal-making.  People downplay his networking skills (or social skills, if you'd prefer that term) as a role in his success...I'm not sure why.    The guy deserves credit for it.

 

I don't think anyone's saying that he doesn't have tremendous social skills. I'm just saying he didn't start out that way, unlike many others who are just natural social animals.

[Parsad]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.  He did the Dale Carnegie course because he was scared of public speaking.  He said he was a terrible salesman because he looked and sounded like a 12 year old (something like that).

 

Re the partnerships, a lot of his original investors were friends and family (not much networking required), and later investors came on board because of performance.

 

Look, I'm not saying the guy was an anti social recluse, but you can't really be an uber networker living in Omaha, can you?

 

I think I read that his final partnership was worth $600mln in today's money.  That sounds pretty small to mid cap to me - I know he invested in AMEX.

 

My idea of a networker is someone who is at the bar at a conference, handing out business cards....

 

Back to Scott Hall - I found his twitter, the guy's clearly good.  But I found evidence of one expense... a Capital IQ!! They're quite costly, right?

 

He started with friend/family money, but then expanded. 

 

600mm aum - but aum size doesn't dictate the size of the companies you invest in

 

your idea of a networker as someone at the bar at a conference handing out business cards is my idea of a sh*tty salesperson.  maybe our difference of opinion lies in a difference in our definitions of "networker"

 

Its myth that he got to where he is now based on book smarts and researching stocks like a recluse.  He exchanged investor ideas, recruited partners/clients AUM, got access to company management (which is no easy thing), orchestrated deal-making.  People downplay his networking skills (or social skills, if you'd prefer that term) as a role in his success...I'm not sure why.    The guy deserves credit for it.

 

You're correct, but it came over time.  It's well documented in The Snowball, Of Permanent Value and his own comments that dealing with people wasn't his first inclination.  It became part of him so that he could achieve his goal of financial independence.  Even comments about him by his wife Susan Buffett suggest a peculiar, more introverted personality when he was young, and that actually he opened up after the Dale Carnegie course, his marriage to Susan and his long interactions with Kay Graham.  Buffett became/is an extremely extroverted personality, with sales skills galore and a bewildering charm.  A lot of it was learned over time. 

 

Not unlike Mohnish...the fellow you see and hear today is not the guy I met in 2001.  I would not have bought a chocolate bar, let alone invest in a partnership with him back then.  He was also the fellow who came up with the idea to use value investing with technology companies...Digital Disrupters...remember that!  Five years later he was a very different person, terrific investor and fantastic marketer...ten years later he had become a natural teacher.  Today, he's dinner companion to Charlie Munger, philanthropist and value investing icon.  But he wasn't that way in 2001.  We all learn to adapt to our environment and what is required of us to achieve our goals.  Cheers!

[Guest]

I think that most people find the idea of a person who doesn't have any sexual interests (in men or women) and lives in an empty apartment unsettling because most people cannot relate to a person like that, and people are afraid of what they don't understand.

 

BTW, my annual budget for my wife and I is about $122k.  It would be difficult for me to change my lifestyle to bring that under 100k.  I have a wife (no kids) and live in a city, so my costs are higher than others.

 

stahleyp - don't take this the wrong way, but I think it is calculative "cheating" to not count the true cost of things like housing or car payment.  Just because you don't have a payment doesn't mean there is zero cost to owning.  Depreciation and opportunity costs are real costs.  I don't have a car payment but I include the depreciation cost in my annual budget.

 

The extra expenses of housing are included in the budget. I simply do virtually all the work myself. My family is quite handy on things. My brother helped put in my hardwood floors in, drywall, etc.

 

Also, my car is probably only worth about $4,000 (or less). I figured I'll have it for roughly 5-10 more years so the depreciation costs are minimal. The cost of gas, insurance and maintenance are included in the total budget.