cubsfan

Put me down as a confused Westerner 3 years ago. I was all for Ukraine Nato membership and taking it to Russia on the offensive. A couple key posters changed my mind. Because you are right, the media narrative painted was totally dishonest, and I was too stupid to realize the complexity of the roots of the conflict. It's not black & white - and we don't belong there. The USA has no business being in Ukraine - we can't get out fast enough.

That's exactly why the Europeans get to run the deal now, since they don't trust Trump. You should slide Justin Trudeau in there with UK Prime Minister Keir Starmer (who looks pretty competent to me.

You need to listen to the interviews with Rubio, Bessant, JD, Lindsey Graham.

The UK, France and the Scandinavian countries have very powerful air forces. Should all else fail - the UK & France have nukes. That should give Putin plenty of reasons to rethink negotiating a peace deal with Europe.

The purpose of the Friday meeting was for Zelensky to sign the economic agreement, then have a private lunch with the President & his cabinet, then have a press conference. Zelensky agreed to sign BEFORE he arrived in DC, and was the agenda. Trump had teed up the security issues with France & the UK earlier in the week. Everyone was on board, as now Zelensky had the 3 major countries behind him due to Trump. He broke the verbal agreement, by refusing to follow through - and destroyed his chances with President Trump. Rubio, Bessant and JD Vance - all warned Trump previously that they had reservations about Zelensky's character - that they were not sure he could be trusted. Turns out they were correct.

It's really wonderful to see Europe FINALLY step up and own this conflict. They should have done it 2 years ago - but definitely better late then never. Too bad it took Trump to get them to finally move:

Zelensky is the one begging for help, not the United States. In the past, if I interviewed a candidate that I liked for our managment team, I generally gave them some information about my superior, who were generally very successful and a bit formal. I remember one candidate that "dressed down" for the boss. It was a disaster and the boss reminded me "We sell million dollar engagements - what's wrong with this guy?" It's very clear that Zelensky doesn't think he needs to "sell himself" to the guy that can make him a hero. Very, very poor judgement.

It's not a huge deal. But if you're really serious, it's does nothing but help you signal your seriousness. I've been in court enough to know, I'll always wear a suit and be very respectful toward the judge. It's huge sign of respect. The adversary is not the judge or Trump - it's Putin or whoever is on the other side of the court. A smart person knows you do everything you can to get the middleman or whoever is helping you negotiate - on your side. Strategic mistake by Zelensky - although not a huge dea. Zelensky's ego got in the way. Missed opportunity.

For sure - a truly despicable move by the Democratic Party leading Zelensky down this path. He played games with the United States and may lose his country as a result. It will be interesting to see what kind of reception he gets back at home.

Major big time fuck up by Zelensky as a negotiator. Verbally agree with the very party that can save you. Then, go around your sponsor and negotiate with people underneath him. You never, ever, ever do that in a negotiation UNLESS you are willing to blow up your own deal. Live and learn Zelensky - good luck getting back into the White House when you can't be trusted. More: Trump off to the fastest start of any president in modern history, Dems are desperate to be relevant. It’s a mark of their bad judgment that Zelensky is their new hero. He & they have zero chance of persuading tapped-out Americans that an open-ended commitment of their tax dollars and possibly sending troops to Ukraine is sensible. Certainly Trump supporters didn’t vote for that, and the president himself campaigned on bringing the war to a fast end, not sending our army to fight Russians.

https://nypost.com/2025/03/01/opinion/dems-lead-zelensky-ukraine-off-a-cliff-with-pressure-to-reject-mineral-deal/ Before meeting Trump, Zelensky met with anti-Trump Democrats who advised him to reject the terms of the mineral deal the president was offering, according to Sen. Chris Murphy (D-Conn.). The earlier meeting with Dems undercuts wild claims that Trump and Vice President J.D. Vance staged an ambush. In fact, it was Zelensky who came with an ulterior motive. The purpose of the meeting was to sign the mineral agreement he and Trump representatives had negotiated. He had twice refused to sign it after promising to, and thanks to Murphy, we now know he had no intention of signing it Friday. By listening to the nakedly partisan advice of Dems instead of dealing forthrightly with the current president, Zelensky betrayed his countrymen and, for now at least, leaves them without the military and diplomatic protection that only America can provide. Good luck counting on Britain, France and the rest of Europe to save Ukraine. Maybe the Germans will send strudel.

No problem at all @Sweet I'm done with this thread for good. I really hope Trump washes his hands of this terrible war. It's Europe's war - the USA has had terrible quagmires like Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. No more pointless wars for us, as the electorate demands. The USA has China, Mexico, Middle East and a $37T deficit to deal with. More than enough. Europe hates Trump and Americans - so we just need to get out for good and let you all deal with it.

Just remember - Trump has NO problem putting his own people in place. He's done it often. He has tremendous confidence in JD Vance - and I can see why. Many in the MAGA party wanted nothing to do with Zelensky. They think he is a liar and scumbag. They counseled Trump not to meet with Zelensky and play peacemaker, that he could not be trusted. And of course, Putin can't be trusted. Many want him to just pull the plug on the Ukraine war because of the corruption and election interference. Trump actually wants to be peacemaker.

I'll only respond knowing that I have not seen it. @Xerxes But it was reported much of the 40 minute meeting, less the last 5 minute blowup - Zelensky was making faces and rolling his eyes - which Trump could not see. Others reported this - and Vance was sitting directly across from Zelensky. So - don't know if it's true or not. Don't really care anyway.

He has not spelled out his security guarantees. He should not. The minerals deal was a predicate required for the security aspect. First Zelensky agrees to Trump's further participation in the final agreement. Then Trump engages with Putin - and as a go between - to arrange a final and lasting cease fire. It's a multistage process - at any time, if Putin doesn't agree to Trump's terms - the deal is off - and the USA is out. The whole deal is off, including mineral's deal. If Putin does agree with Trump's terms - and violates the final agreement - then Putin knows there will be holy hell to pay. He did the same thing with Iran, the Taliban and the Russians in Syria. In the case of Iran and Taliban - he warned them against any futher killing of Americans. He was never specific at all about what would happen. When he killed Soleimani - Iran stopped their nonsense - they were shocked that an American President would do such a violent thing to take out the highest member of Iran's military, a high ranking statesmen. That itself is an act of war to assissinate another country's statesment.That is what @james22 means with strategic ambiguity. Trump is totally unpredictable. He may be a mad-man, but he's our mad-man. Putin will be told "don't violate the agreement or there will be hell to be paid". When the Taliban killed American soldiers after Trump's warning - he dropped the MOAB on their tunnel complex killing hundreds of Taliban. Message was recieved. Trump also showed the highest Taliban leader, Abdul, a picture of his family's house - and told him "don't kill any more Americans". When Abdul asked him why the picture - Trump told him - you don't want to find out, don't kill any more Americans. When you are the biggest badass these guys have ever seen - you are risking your life & country when you call his bluff. You think he is Putin's buddy. I think Putin is petrified of the wrong move against Trump. What other single country than the USA can destroy Russia for good? Why does Putin want to find out? After all, he's likely to prevent NATO membership for Ukraine, get to keep Crimea & Donbas. We see it differently obviously.

The USA mobilized in a matter of months after Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. That was 80 years ago and Europe has a massive industrial base. It's amazing what a nation has to do when it is motivated.

It's really time for Europe to take this over. Obviously, the allies have lost confidence in Trump.

The strongest military in the world on his side. Like @james22 said - ambiguity is an enormous strategic advantage in final negotiations. You or Putin have no idea what might be in store for Putin should he violate a final agreement. To spell it out now would be a mistake, you save it for Putin. I have a very hard time believing that Zelenksy is in a stronger postion against Putin without Trump.

I'll modify my response after a careful reading. IMO - Europe should take the lead on negotiations with Putin. In Europe's mind, Trump is exactly the wrong individual to deal with anyone. So take the lead - work out what you can with all parties: Ukraine, Russia, Europe and lastly the United States. Perhaps an astute first step before the possibility of a Russian/Europe war. Personally, I think Crimea, Donbas and NATO membership for Ukraine are non-starters and will lead to a much larger conflict.

^^^^ There we go again. Trump is the responsible of all Ukraine's problems, even child kidnapping. Nice. Not a word about Biden or Europe ignoring this issue. It's all on Trump. The sooner the USA gets out of this quagmire , the better.

Now that's funny.

Silence...... because Europe has had 3 years to settle this, certainly should have been done 2 years ago when momentum was behind them. They tried to wait out the election and hope that Kamala would win. That was their piss poor plan. Now they have to scramble. So - yeah - they have no better plan. Just a war of words berating the USA.

Personally, I can't wait to see the European leaders host a nice tea party for Putin & Zelensky for the signing of the treaty. Don't forget the Danish pastries - everyone will feel so much better.

+1 - We can argue about the optics and methods as you say. The public forum makes clear America's stance for all to see. I'll say it again - all the matter is results, not methods. In this case, ending a pointless war. I find it laughable that people think this war would be an easy to end.

You are correct. It's a bad situation, especially for Zelensky. He just threw away his winning hand.