Dilution of the American brand

[DTEJD1997]

Hey all:

 

I don't want to devolve TOO far in politics.  I wish to discuss this mainly from an economic standpoint...

 

America is about to tremendously devalue it's brand.  HOW?  By granting citizenship to millions of illegal or "undocumented" workers.

 

American citizenship used to be the "gold standard" for citizenship across the world.  People desired it highly.  They would risk tremendous amounts to get here, they would work hard to get it...

 

Now, Congress is basically going to GIVE it away.

 

I would argue that it should be SOLD.  Applicants should have to pay a $500 or $1,000 application fee.  This is STRICTLY non-refundable and must be paid up front.

 

If they pass that, they would pay a much more substantial fee in order to actually become a citizen.  I'm talking about $30,000 at a minimum, perhaps more.  A substantial down payment would be required, something like $10,000.  The rest could then be paid over a 5 or 6 year period, carried at the low, low interest rate of 12% on the unpaid balance.  The USA government has student loans at a low 6.8%.....So I think 12% would be a relative bargain.  You would have to pay a certain minimum every year, and MUST be paid by the end of the period.

 

In addition to the fee, potential citizens MUST pay an additional 2% into social security for a period of 10 years.  During that 10 years, they would not be eligible for ANY benefits.

 

Conviction of a felony would result in forfeiture of monies paid, and a ticket OUT of the USA.

 

I know that other countries will "sell" citizenship, but the rate is usually MUCH higher.  I think Singapore is $500k.  They also frequently have the requirement of creating jobs too.

 

If the USA just hands out citizenship to MILLIONS of people for basically nothing, what is it worth?

 

I would think the politicians would be all over this.  Democrats would like it as it bring a tremendous amount of money into government coffers.  Republicans would like it as it might put a brake on illegal immigration.  It would also get the media off of their backs as being uncaring.

 

Any thoughts on this?

[NormR]

The good people you guys don't want are welcome up here in Canada.  We're happy to have people with the moxie to uproot themselves and live in a new land. 

 

Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door,

to Canada 

[LC]

Ehhh...I think the appeal of American citizenship is that you can come here with nothing and you have the chance to "make it". Not that you have to come here with a $1000 deposit and then pay out another $30k. Kind of throws a kink in the "rags to riches" story.

[DTEJD1997]

Hey all:

 

I have NO PROBLEM with immigration....My ancestors were immigrants themselves.

 

HOWEVER, letting in millions of people who did not follow the rules?

 

I had many friends in school and graduate school who were HIGHLY educated and wanted to stay in the USA after graduation.  They had to go back to their home country.

 

Or how about a friend of mine who is an engineer.  He goes to Singapore/Thailand on business several times a year for weeks/months at a time.  He has a Thai girlfriend.  She can't even come over to the USA to visit.

 

These are all law abiding people.  They are being treated worse than people who simply show up.

 

What about people in Europe/Middle East/Asia who want to come to the USA and are made to wait years, or can't even get over here.

 

So millions of people NOT following the rules/law are to just be given citizenship?  What message does this send to people who are following the rules?

 

I say if the person wants to jump to the front of the line OR not follow the rules, have them pay a high fee for doing so.

 

As to immigrants going to Canada, would you guys take 11 million people?

[Guest valueInv]

Maybe the US of A should hire a advertising agency  ;)

[Hielko]

American citizenship used to be the "gold standard" for citizenship across the world.  People desired it highly.  They would risk tremendous amounts to get here, they would work hard to get it...

Right.... only an American citizen could write the above

I had many friends in school and graduate school who were HIGHLY educated and wanted to stay in the USA after graduation.  They had to go back to their home country.

Only demonstrates that the current rules are stupid and slowing down economic development in the USA. Using the current rules as an argument against reform isn't good logic imo.

[twacowfca]

The good people you guys don't want are welcome up here in Canada.  We're happy to have people with the moxie to uproot themselves and live in a new land. 

 

Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door,

to Canada

 

Oh Canadia . . . I knew it!  You really are the 51st State.  :)

[Kraven]

The good people you guys don't want are welcome up here in Canada.  We're happy to have people with the moxie to uproot themselves and live in a new land. 

 

Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door,

to Canada

 

Oh Canadia . . . I knew it!  You really are the 51st State.  :)

 

Canada is real?  I always thought that was just what parents use to scare their kids if they misbehave. Like "if you don't eat your broccoli you will be sent to Canada".

[Packer16]

With country music and Saskatchewan Roughrider football, what more could you ask for? 

 

Packer

[JBird]

They would risk tremendous amounts to get here, they would work hard to get it...

Mexicans are still dying every day trying to get across the border.

 

Republicans would like it as it might put a brake on illegal immigration 

 

A ten foot wall and the risk of death hasn't stopped them, I would be surprised if asking for thousands of dollars they don't have will.

 

If the USA just hands out citizenship to MILLIONS of people for basicallynothing,whatis it worth?

 

The U.S. has handed out citizenship to millions for basically nothing since 1776.

 

[Palantir]

 

American citizenship used to be the "gold standard" for citizenship across the world.  People desired it highly.  They would risk tremendous amounts to get here, they would work hard to get it...

 

Now, Congress is basically going to GIVE it away.

 

This talk of selling citizenship got me thinking.

 

I think the US is interesting in the sense that it is less of a country and more of a corporation. Rather than built around the idea of an imagined community that shares ethnic, cultural, religious, or racial ties, like say Russia, Iran, or Israel, it's envisioned as a place where you can "achieve your dreams" which essentially results in it not having a national culture. Now the US used to be a nation of an "imagined community" prior to waves of immigration in the 1800s, but now that it has passed that stage, in a sense it is embracing the mercantilist notion of the nation by admitting illegal immigrants to form the lowest layer of its workforce.

 

I'm not against immigration, I'm an immigrant of Indian origin myself, but I just can't grasp the fact that a large section of the media and country seems to think that US citizenship is some sort of inalienable right for illegal immigrants, who in my opinion have violated the laws of this nation by coming here. To me, it just smacks of sheer arrogance. But oh well....this isn't supposed to be political right?

[JBird]

Palantir, are you now a naturalized citizen?

[ERICOPOLY]

I don't suppose it would be popular to try the tactics that the Comanches used to push the Spanish out.

[Palantir]

Palantir, are you now a naturalized citizen?

 

Yes I am.

[Sunrider]

You do realise that the US already does sell its citizenship? It's 500k - 1m and called an investors' visa. If you're really keen on making money out of your brand then perhaps just spend another couple of bn on higher walls on your southern border, forcefully implant every "real" citizen with a chip, kick out all the others and rigorously sell more of the above visas.

 

Oh and I think you're forgetting that there are also cases where people resign their greencard or citizenship. Mostly when they've made lots of money.

 

Just something to think about.

 

And yes, I think, you're definitely wandering off into politics and perhaps that could go onto another forum.

 

C.

Hey all:

 

I don't want to devolve TOO far in politics.  I wish to discuss this mainly from an economic standpoint...

 

America is about to tremendously devalue it's brand.  HOW?  By granting citizenship to millions of illegal or "undocumented" workers.

 

American citizenship used to be the "gold standard" for citizenship across the world.  People desired it highly.  They would risk tremendous amounts to get here, they would work hard to get it...

 

Now, Congress is basically going to GIVE it away.

 

I would argue that it should be SOLD.  Applicants should have to pay a $500 or $1,000 application fee.  This is STRICTLY non-refundable and must be paid up front.

 

If they pass that, they would pay a much more substantial fee in order to actually become a citizen.  I'm talking about $30,000 at a minimum, perhaps more.  A substantial down payment would be required, something like $10,000.  The rest could then be paid over a 5 or 6 year period, carried at the low, low interest rate of 12% on the unpaid balance.  The USA government has student loans at a low 6.8%.....So I think 12% would be a relative bargain.  You would have to pay a certain minimum every year, and MUST be paid by the end of the period.

 

In addition to the fee, potential citizens MUST pay an additional 2% into social security for a period of 10 years.  During that 10 years, they would not be eligible for ANY benefits.

 

Conviction of a felony would result in forfeiture of monies paid, and a ticket OUT of the USA.

 

I know that other countries will "sell" citizenship, but the rate is usually MUCH higher.  I think Singapore is $500k.  They also frequently have the requirement of creating jobs too.

 

If the USA just hands out citizenship to MILLIONS of people for basically nothing, what is it worth?

 

I would think the politicians would be all over this.  Democrats would like it as it bring a tremendous amount of money into government coffers.  Republicans would like it as it might put a brake on illegal immigration.  It would also get the media off of their backs as being uncaring.

 

Any thoughts on this?

[ERICOPOLY]

You do realise that the US already does sell its citizenship? It's 500k - 1m and called an investors' visa. If you're really keen on making money out of your brand then perhaps just spend another couple of bn on higher walls on your southern border, forcefully implant every "real" citizen with a chip, kick out all the others and rigorously sell more of the above visas.

 

Oh and I think you're forgetting that there are also cases where people resign their greencard or citizenship. Mostly when they've made lots of money.

 

Just something to think about.

 

And yes, I think, you're definitely wandering off into politics and perhaps that could go onto another forum.

 

C.

Hey all:

 

I don't want to devolve TOO far in politics.  I wish to discuss this mainly from an economic standpoint...

 

America is about to tremendously devalue it's brand.  HOW?  By granting citizenship to millions of illegal or "undocumented" workers.

 

American citizenship used to be the "gold standard" for citizenship across the world.  People desired it highly.  They would risk tremendous amounts to get here, they would work hard to get it...

 

Now, Congress is basically going to GIVE it away.

 

I would argue that it should be SOLD.  Applicants should have to pay a $500 or $1,000 application fee.  This is STRICTLY non-refundable and must be paid up front.

 

If they pass that, they would pay a much more substantial fee in order to actually become a citizen.  I'm talking about $30,000 at a minimum, perhaps more.  A substantial down payment would be required, something like $10,000.  The rest could then be paid over a 5 or 6 year period, carried at the low, low interest rate of 12% on the unpaid balance.  The USA government has student loans at a low 6.8%.....So I think 12% would be a relative bargain.  You would have to pay a certain minimum every year, and MUST be paid by the end of the period.

 

In addition to the fee, potential citizens MUST pay an additional 2% into social security for a period of 10 years.  During that 10 years, they would not be eligible for ANY benefits.

 

Conviction of a felony would result in forfeiture of monies paid, and a ticket OUT of the USA.

 

I know that other countries will "sell" citizenship, but the rate is usually MUCH higher.  I think Singapore is $500k.  They also frequently have the requirement of creating jobs too.

 

If the USA just hands out citizenship to MILLIONS of people for basically nothing, what is it worth?

 

I would think the politicians would be all over this.  Democrats would like it as it bring a tremendous amount of money into government coffers.  Republicans would like it as it might put a brake on illegal immigration.  It would also get the media off of their backs as being uncaring.

 

Any thoughts on this?

 

Does the investor's visa really grant citizenship, or just residency?

 

[ASTA]

Ericopoly,

My limited knowledge about that is its only a green card and one has to apply to citizenship later like 10 years.

The only problem is that you have to hire 10 Americans to work for you which in investing is a no no. Maybe have a side real estate business ;D 

 

[Sunrider]

Ericopoly,

My limited knowledge about that is its only a green card and one has to apply to citizenship later like 10 years.

The only problem is that you have to hire 10 Americans to work for you which in investing is a no no. Maybe have a side real estate business ;D

 

Correct - residency/greencard first, but clearly you can then apply with pretty decent chances after you've been in the country for a while.

 

In any event, I find this discussion a bit surreal and misplaced. Does the original poster really think the US 'brand' as such is diluted by naturalising (mostly hard working, otherwise they'd probably starve) illegal immigrants? I don't think so.

 

What I can tell you (as someone living outside the US) is that what does damage the US brand abroad are revelations (unsurprising as they may be) a la Snowden, the disgrace (for a society built on laws and individual freedom, and the restraint of government) that's still going on in Gitmo, the joke that you previously called president, etc. So if you're really worried about the US' standing in the world, then that'd be the place to start.

 

Oh - and I very much like the US so definitely not a 'french surrenderer monkey' for whom everything American is bad.

 

Cheers. C.

 

 

[DTEJD1997]

You do realise that the US already does sell its citizenship? It's 500k - 1m and called an investors' visa.

 

OK, if we give away citizenship to 11MM illegal immigrants, then who would pay $500k for an investor's visa?  Simply come across the Southern border and stay here and then get your citizenship virtually for free?

 

What kind of precedent is this setting?

 

I am all for immigration, LEGAL immigration. If we want to allow 1, 10, 100, 1,000 or 1,000,000 Mexican nationals (or any other group) than that is fine, have the discussion and do it in orderly fashion.  Screen who is coming in and set some rules.  If law abiding Mexicans, Colombians, Canadians, Indians, Chinese, Vietnamese, Australians, English etc. wish to come here that is fine.  Follow the rules and come legally. 

 

How are people going to feel that follow the rules?  They are suckers, they have a distinct disadvantage playing by the rules.

 

As to people who think this is a terrible idea, maybe we should just have totally open borders?  Anybody who can get here is granted citizenship?

 

Why even have border checkpoints? 

 

Why should some people have to take a civics test to become a citizen and others don't?

 

Why have laws on the books and not follow them? 

 

Nothing possibly could go wrong!

 

 

 

 

 

[LC]

Why not grant them a work visa instead...the govt collects its tax but still has the authority to deport if needed. The immigrant doesn't need to operate on the wrong side of the law.

[DTEJD1997]

Why not grant them a work visa instead...the govt collects its tax but still has the authority to deport if needed. The immigrant doesn't need to operate on the wrong side of the law.

 

LC, a very elegant solution.  I am embarrassed that I did not think of that.

 

I guess this is what was done in times past.  Work permits were issued for 6 months or a year.  Evidently this cut illegal immigration by about 90% and seemed to work out.

 

I wonder why we can't go back to this?  Must have been too sensible for our halfwit politicians.

 

I think this is the best solution. 

[turar]

What I can tell you (as someone living outside the US) is that what does damage the US brand abroad are revelations (unsurprising as they may be) a la Snowden, the disgrace (for a society built on laws and individual freedom, and the restraint of government) that's still going on in Gitmo, the joke that you previously called president, etc. So if you're really worried about the US' standing in the world, then that'd be the place to start.

 

Oh - and I very much like the US so definitely not a 'french surrenderer monkey' for whom everything American is bad.

 

Cheers. C.

 

Haha, this 100 times. When I first saw the thread title, I thought it would be either about Snowden/NSA affair; or Guantanamo which is still open, where prisoners are being force-fed through tubes everyday; or the decline of American middle class; or free hunting passes on Blacks in Florida, aka "Stand Your Ground" law; or the highest incarcerated rate in the world; or Iraq/Afghanistan invasions; or maybe even all of the above. I was wrong.

[Sunrider]

Yep - all for laws (except for law positivism or whatever you'd call what happend in the third Reich ... they had lots of laws, too).

 

Issue is - is worth 42bn or whatever crazy number that's going to border patrol over the next few years? I mean I understand government is inefficient but how expensive can a high wall be? Hell you got all these minuteman vigilantes down there anyway watching the border and protecting the US from being overrun by the hordes of South Americans you fear.  I say give them all a badge ... much cheaper than 42bn.

 

Oh but it's your tax money so you're absolutely free to spend it how you want!

 

Cheers - C.

 

(in case it's not clear: I'm taking the mickey .. it's slightly amusing that people get so riled up about these topics, illegal immigrants and their violation of the law are probably the smallest real issue the US faces now).

 

You do realise that the US already does sell its citizenship? It's 500k - 1m and called an investors' visa.

 

OK, if we give away citizenship to 11MM illegal immigrants, then who would pay $500k for an investor's visa?  Simply come across the Southern border and stay here and then get your citizenship virtually for free?

 

What kind of precedent is this setting?

 

I am all for immigration, LEGAL immigration. If we want to allow 1, 10, 100, 1,000 or 1,000,000 Mexican nationals (or any other group) than that is fine, have the discussion and do it in orderly fashion.  Screen who is coming in and set some rules.  If law abiding Mexicans, Colombians, Canadians, Indians, Chinese, Vietnamese, Australians, English etc. wish to come here that is fine.  Follow the rules and come legally. 

 

How are people going to feel that follow the rules?  They are suckers, they have a distinct disadvantage playing by the rules.

 

As to people who think this is a terrible idea, maybe we should just have totally open borders?  Anybody who can get here is granted citizenship?

 

Why even have border checkpoints? 

 

Why should some people have to take a civics test to become a citizen and others don't?

 

Why have laws on the books and not follow them? 

 

Nothing possibly could go wrong!

[CorpRaider]

I don't know what you guys are talking about.  As long as America has Canadian comedians, British TV shows, Belgian assault rifles, and German tank parts, we will remain the dominant force in the universe!  Heh.

[Sunrider]

I don't know what you guys are talking about.  As long as America has Canadian comedians, British TV shows, Belgian assault rifles, and German tank parts, we will remain the dominant force in the universe!  Heh.

 

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