cwericb Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 “There is no way that Sino is a complete fraud, as they invariably have some trees/business, it would be impossible to fake everything. But just because it's only a partial fraud doesn't mean the stock has any value. Remember, there's a lot of debt, that would pick through this corpse if it turned out to be a fraud, likely leaving nothing for the equity” Good point Hester. oec2000 you said: “It's amazing that some continue to call this a buying opportunity on the sole basis that the company "must be worth something between zero and $20+ and then rationalising this speculation by saying that it's ok because we are not betting the family farm on it and dismissing the red flags because we don't like or trust the guys waving it." If you are attempting to quote me, please read what I said more carefully... 1 At no time did I say it was a buying opportunity. I simply posed the question. Buying opportunities come at times when the market turns against a company for various reasons. I was pondering the fact that this could be one of those times similar to FFH at $60. 2. Again, if this was an attempt to quote me it is a miss-quote as I do not recollect saying or inferring that. I posed several questions as points to consider. They were not statements. What I said was “Of course a lot of investors don't think [that this is a buying opportunity], but isn't that what makes a buying opportunity? I don't think anyone should be betting the family farm on this, but I certainly think it deserves some thought.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFValue Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 citron on HRBN, stock trading at 7 (down 50% today) with a buyout offer at 24. http://www.citronresearch.com/index.php/2011/06/16/harbin-electric-loan-fraud-and-the-docs-to-prove-it/ CBHT halted there are no toxic assets only toxic prices, howard marks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hester Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 How does disclosing the locations of their plantations impede their replanting program?!! I sure don't see the "reputable" analysts calling out mgmt on things like this. I agree, but I don't think Sino allowed any analysts capable of calling out management to be on the conference call. No buy side analysts, and Anissa Lee from Nomura, a pre Muddy Waters critic, was cut off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hester Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 citron on HRBN, stock trading at 7 (down 50% today) with a buyout offer at 24. http://www.citronresearch.com/index.php/2011/06/16/harbin-electric-loan-fraud-and-the-docs-to-prove-it/ CBHT halted there are no toxic assets only toxic prices, howard marks This is one I'm actually short, and I've been short since it riduculously traded at just a 13-14% discount to the buyout "offer" not too long ago... Good day for me obviously. This is one of two stocks I eluded to earlier in another Sino thread, with questionable buyout offers. The other is CFSG with an offer for financing from Bain Capital. I'm not short that one but might be. Both stocks have had reasonable borrows. This is a pretty egregious offer though. I'm surprised Citron's claims have had this kind of effect. They've been vocally critical in the past, with little effect. The key with this is the SAIC documents show higher debts than any SEC documents. There is no reason whatsoever for that to be the case except for the fact that they are faking the SEC filings. You cannot explain away this discrepency by saying there are unconsolidated subs, or the SAIC filings are wrong, because HRBN would have no incentive to report higher debts than they really have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hester Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 By the way if anyone is thinking of actually buying this donut (HRBN, not Sino), I'd be happy to share my research, although I can't add much past Citron, as they were quite thorough. Just PM/email me. This one is a very blatant fraud and should be avoided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oec2000 Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 If you are attempting to quote me, please read what I said more carefully... 1 At no time did I say it was a buying opportunity. I simply posed the question. Buying opportunities come at times when the market turns against a company for various reasons. I was pondering the fact that this could be one of those times similar to FFH at $60. Fair point; my mistake. I may have read too much into your comments (below) which gave the impression that you thought there was a buying opportunity (I assumed that your questions were rhetorical). So if the truth lies somewhere in between, and that seems more and more likely, than do we have a buying opportunity here? Of course a lot of investors don't think so, but isn't that what makes a buying opportunity? I don't think anyone should be betting the family farm on this, but I certainly think it deserves some thought. How does disclosing the locations of their plantations impede their replanting program?!! I sure don't see the "reputable" analysts calling out mgmt on things like this. I agree, but I don't think Sino allowed any analysts capable of calling out management to be on the conference call. No buy side analysts, and Anissa Lee from Nomura, a pre Muddy Waters critic, was cut off. That's why I had "reputable" in quotes - basically in reference to the sell side analysts that various posters here have implied to be reputable and trustworthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFValue Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 HRBN responds to Citron's allegations http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Harbin-Electric-Inc-Responds-prnews-95490784.html?x=0&.v=1 I find this fascinating because there is clearly a miss pricing here, unfortunately I have no edge whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lessthaniv Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Filtering the Muddy Water http://susan-mallin.blogspot.com/search/label/muddy%20waters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claphands22 Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 HRBN responds to Citron's allegations http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Harbin-Electric-Inc-Responds-prnews-95490784.html?x=0&.v=1 I find this fascinating because there is clearly a miss pricing here, unfortunately I have no edge whatsoever. The CEO reaffirmed his proposal...oy vey...I don't have a bone in the hrbn bit (in other Chinese RTOs, yes) but he responded exactly how citron expected them to. No definitive agreement, just a reaffirmation of a proposal, jeesh. I've already married off two other daughters while this putz is still making promises about a promise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippy1 Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 The CEO reaffirmed his proposal...oy vey...I don't have a bone in the hrbn bit (in other Chinese RTOs, yes) but he responded exactly how citron expected them to. No definitive agreement, just a reaffirmation of a proposal, jeesh. I've already married off two other daughters while this putz is still making promises about a promise. Ha! Ha! That is a good one! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hester Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 HRBN responds to Citron's allegations http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Harbin-Electric-Inc-Responds-prnews-95490784.html?x=0&.v=1 I find this fascinating because there is clearly a miss pricing here, unfortunately I have no edge whatsoever. That management rebuttle made Sino's rebuttle look like it was written by Warren Buffett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nodnub Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 That management rebuttle made Sino's rebuttle look like it was written by Warren Buffett thanks, just had my first belly laugh of the day :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFValue Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 HRBN Agrees to Buyout http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/20/us-harbinelectric-idUSTRE75J2W120110620?feedType=RSS&feedName=innovationNews&rpc=43 stock up > 50%, trading at 50% of offer......no position, but still can not stop following. Gun to head I would short. Now they say it will close in 4th Quarter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
given2invest Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 The oddest part of this is MS and GS advising. I wouldn't touch this on either side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hester Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I'm short this one still. I find the timing of this a little odd, I suspect this is manufactured as a response to Citron, because the formal response of management was weak at best. That being said the news is a negative development for the shorts. This is no where near being done, they don't have a date yet. I don't find GS and MS advising to be a bullish sign, as they have little economic interest in the deal going through (they're not financing or participating in the buyout on the equity side). They are unlikely to have done much in the way of DD to find out if this company is a fraud. And as recent history has shown, even giant institutions/funds with large economic interests in finding out if there is fraud or not, will still not see even blatant fraud. It's becoming an assymetric bet, where you get a double if the buyout actually occurs, and close to 100% loss if it doesn't. So the question becomes, is there a 50/50 chance the buyout offer goes through. I don't think so. I opened my short in the 20's, so this is a smaller position for me since the stock has fallen, and I'm not sure I'd open a larger short position at these levels. That being said, I'm still very comfortably short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFValue Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 a bunch of filings related to the merger agr. today this gives me pause If completed, the merger will result in the Company becoming a privately-held company, and the Shares will no longer be listed on any public market. Morgan Stanley & Co. Incorporated and Lazard Frères & Co. LLC are serving as financial advisors to the Special Committee. Goldman Sachs (Asia) LLC is serving as financial advisor to Mr. Tianfu Yang. Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher LLP is serving as legal advisor to the Special Committee. Loeb & Loeb LLP is serving as legal advisor to the Company. Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP is serving as legal advisor to Mr. Tianfu Yang. Davis Polk & Wardwell LLP is serving as legal advisor to Abax. fascinating.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hester Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Phony SEC suit filed against Block. http://www.thestreet.com/_yahoo/story/11160087/1/china-fraud-plot-thickens-with-fake-sec-suit.html?cm_ven=YAHOO&cm_cat=FREE&cm_ite=NA It's becoming more and more apparent who the actual "miscreant" stock manipulators are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lessthaniv Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 As of today both Harbin and Sino Forest have been on the naked short sale list for 13 days. But, is that really a surprise? http://www.buyins.net/tools/short_list.php?dys=%3E12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hester Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 I got forced to cover HRBN on Thursday by my broker, so no longer have a financial interest, but I think this will be interesting to watch. For me, the greater debt in the SAIC filing is the smoking gun. I might take an option position at some point. I wish they had LEAPS but that's too much to ask on a small reverse merger stock. If the HRBN and CFSG buyout deals fail, this sector is doomed. The greater fools really would be running out. In Sino news Paulson is finally speaking out, after selling out. Although not saying anything earth shaking. He did lose a pretty penny. In a memo to investors, Mr. Paulson said the actual loss was closer to $100 million based on the average price the firm paid for the shares since it began buying in 2007. But from the stock’s price at end of last year, the firm lost $562 million. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooskinneejs Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 I thought this was an insightful and balanced look at Sino-Forest and some of Block's accusations. The comments and responses at the bottom are also good. Enjoy: http://www.metalaugmentor.com/eforum/?p=6994 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooskinneejs Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 China-Biotic's auditors resigned in June and explained why in the letter linked below. While not directly related to Sino-Forest, the letter provides some interesting insights into some of the fraudulent activity occuring in some of the Chinese companies. Page 3 lists a few examples of how the auditor believes the company was faking it's cash balances (going so far as to set up a fake bank website) and customer sales. http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1271057/000114420411037217/v226804_ex16-1.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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