Guardianship Scams

[sarganaga]

This New Yorker article https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/10/09/how-the-elderly-lose-their-rights just scratches the surface of an absolutely evil scam perpetrated by lawyers, "professional guardians", judges, & other courthouse lizards on the elderly. Yes, they can really take your property without due process and with almost no recourse.

[LC]

Holy crap this is some bullsh1t of the first degree. Truly terrible - and as the article mentions the problem persists in other retirement areas. I can't imagine what I'd do if someone tried pulling this on my folks.

[sarganaga]

If you get to become a ward, there's not really any hope for you. This is the worst thing next to an immediate death penalty & almost no one is talking about it. Young people "know " it could never happen to them.

[LongHaul]

Really crazy.  Thx for posting.  There is some real evil out there that will lie, cheat and steal and prey on anyone to make a buck.

 

I think I would immediately hire a lawyer to sort thru this.

 

This has been a similar saga with Stan Lee.

https://deadline.com/2018/08/restraining-order-protect-stan-lee-keya-morgan-1202447721/

[sarganaga]

Really crazy.  Thx for posting.  There is some real evil out there that will lie, cheat and steal and prey on anyone to make a buck.

 

I think I would immediately hire a lawyer to sort thru this.

 

This has been a similar saga with Stan Lee.

https://deadline.com/2018/08/restraining-order-protect-stan-lee-keya-morgan-1202447721/

 

Once guardianship has been awarded, it can take years to get it reversed (if ever)  even if there was never a need for a guardianship to begin with. Also, the guardian is allowed to use the ward's money to hire the guardian's lawyers & expert witnesses. So, the more you fight, the more your assets are depleted.

 

[bizaro86]

Would an enduring power of attorney help prevent this? If your relative could present a court with a document saying "if I'm ever not in sound mind I appoint my son John smith my guardian" it seems like that would be governing, wouldn't it?

 

I'd be pretty young for someone to pull this on me, but it seem likely that the time to prepare for stuff like that is before you need to.

[Jurgis]

Would an enduring power of attorney help prevent this? If your relative could present a court with a document saying "if I'm ever not in sound mind I appoint my son John smith my guardian" it seems like that would be governing, wouldn't it?

 

I'd be pretty young for someone to pull this on me, but it seem likely that the time to prepare for stuff like that is before you need to.

 

I am not a lawyer, so...

 

I think any defensive moves work in certain cases, don't work in others and result in even worse situation in yet others.

 

Yes, if you make a relative your guardian, this will work unless the court is corrupt/broken like in NewYorker article and moves guardianship to non-relative anyway. Especially if your relative is not resident of the state and only in-state guardians are allowed.

 

Also this puts a risk that your relative could take advantage of you. This might not be an issue for you personally, but for other people it might be (I know situations like that and there are articles about this too). Obviously the state guardian and judge in NewYorker article were evil. But look at it from different perspective: what if a relative is evil and milking old person? Then you'd want the state to appoint different guardian than the evil relative. How do you determine who's evil who's not? Yeah, in ideal world you can. In our world, it's not that easy. Of course the relative will say that they are not evil, the state guardian will say that they are not evil, and the court judge will say that they are not evil either.

 

The best thing is to have trustworthy relatives, trustworthy lawyers/advisors/doctors and live in a location that has trustworthy legal system. It might not be easy to get all of these, but it's worthwhile to try.  8)

 

[bizaro86]

Would an enduring power of attorney help prevent this? If your relative could present a court with a document saying "if I'm ever not in sound mind I appoint my son John smith my guardian" it seems like that would be governing, wouldn't it?

 

I'd be pretty young for someone to pull this on me, but it seem likely that the time to prepare for stuff like that is before you need to.

 

I am not a lawyer, so...

 

I think any defensive moves work in certain cases, don't work in others and result in even worse situation in yet others.

 

Yes, if you make a relative your guardian, this will work unless the court is corrupt/broken like in NewYorker article and moves guardianship to non-relative anyway. Especially if your relative is not resident of the state and only in-state guardians are allowed.

 

Also this puts a risk that your relative could take advantage of you. This might not be an issue for you personally, but for other people it might be (I know situations like that and there are articles about this too). Obviously the state guardian and judge in NewYorker article were evil. But look at it from different perspective: what if a relative is evil and milking old person? Then you'd want the state to appoint different guardian than the evil relative. How do you determine who's evil who's not? Yeah, in ideal world you can. In our world, it's not that easy. Of course the relative will say that they are not evil, the state guardian will say that they are not evil, and the court judge will say that they are not evil either.

 

The best thing is to have trustworthy relatives, trustworthy lawyers/advisors/doctors and live in a location that has trustworthy legal system. It might not be easy to get all of these, but it's worthwhile to try.  8)

 

Those are good points, with lots to think about. I'm more of the age where my elderly relatives are trusting me with stuff. Which works out great for them, because I'm honest and hardworking.  :D

 

But it does seem like a good idea to have a plan in place for things like this. I'm going to bring it up with my estate lawyer the next time we do our wills.

[sarganaga]

Would an enduring power of attorney help prevent this? If your relative could present a court with a document saying "if I'm ever not in sound mind I appoint my son John smith my guardian" it seems like that would be governing, wouldn't it?

 

I'd be pretty young for someone to pull this on me, but it seem likely that the time to prepare for stuff like that is before you need to.

 

Having a living trust, durable power attorney for healthcare directives, & financial durable power of attorney makes you safer. A complicit judge can choose to disregard these in some cases. Having 5 or so successor trustees makes it more difficult for the courthouse lizards to have all of them disqualified.

 

The only surefire way to be completely safe from professional guardianship predators is to be completely broke. No money to steal, no problems for you.

[sarganaga]

After reading the New Yorker article I did some online searching & found Americans Against Abusive Probate Guardianship, which was founded by Dr Sam Suger, a Florida doctor whose family was a victim. Their website http://aaapg.net/ has a lot of good information.

 

I also bought Sam Sugar's book, Guardianships and the Elderly, The Perfect Crime http://aaapg.net/new-book-from-aaapg-founder-dr-sam-sugar-guardianship-and-the-elderly-the-perfect-crime/ . Most of the info is more scary than anything. There are some great suggestions, but the situation with the legal system is really bad

 

Making this scam public seems to be helping some. I spend part of my time living in Las Vegas which was/is a real hotspot. Some offenders here have been jailed. The politically connected worst case who is estimated to have stolen over $100,000,000 seems to be having no problem, though

[LC]

Also it's a good idea to avoid retirement states where these lecherous cretins prey.

 

It may be fine to live there to collect low/no state taxes, but keep your assets in a trust elsewhere.

 

Finally, screw the corrupt assholes who are involved in all this. The judges, doctors, lawyers, etc. All of them can rot in hell. Makes my blood boil.

[Jurgis]

Would an enduring power of attorney help prevent this? If your relative could present a court with a document saying "if I'm ever not in sound mind I appoint my son John smith my guardian" it seems like that would be governing, wouldn't it?

 

I'd be pretty young for someone to pull this on me, but it seem likely that the time to prepare for stuff like that is before you need to.

 

I am not a lawyer, so...

 

I think any defensive moves work in certain cases, don't work in others and result in even worse situation in yet others.

 

Yes, if you make a relative your guardian, this will work unless the court is corrupt/broken like in NewYorker article and moves guardianship to non-relative anyway. Especially if your relative is not resident of the state and only in-state guardians are allowed.

 

Also this puts a risk that your relative could take advantage of you. This might not be an issue for you personally, but for other people it might be (I know situations like that and there are articles about this too). Obviously the state guardian and judge in NewYorker article were evil. But look at it from different perspective: what if a relative is evil and milking old person? Then you'd want the state to appoint different guardian than the evil relative. How do you determine who's evil who's not? Yeah, in ideal world you can. In our world, it's not that easy. Of course the relative will say that they are not evil, the state guardian will say that they are not evil, and the court judge will say that they are not evil either.

 

The best thing is to have trustworthy relatives, trustworthy lawyers/advisors/doctors and live in a location that has trustworthy legal system. It might not be easy to get all of these, but it's worthwhile to try.  8)

 

Those are good points, with lots to think about. I'm more of the age where my elderly relatives are trusting me with stuff. Which works out great for them, because I'm honest and hardworking.  :D

 

But it does seem like a good idea to have a plan in place for things like this. I'm going to bring it up with my estate lawyer the next time we do our wills.

 

Yet another side of this - which you may be familiar with since you have elderly relatives:

 

(Some changes were made to protect the innocent):

 

Elderly person: Hi, who are you?

Younger person: I'm your kid. You should get a nurse, move to retirement home, nursing facility.

Elderly person: No, I'm fine, this is where I lived whole life I am not moving anywhere.

 

Elderly person leaves the gas turned on: I wanted to make tea

Younger person: You should get a nurse, move to retirement home, nursing facility.

Elderly person: No, I'm fine, this is where I lived whole life I am not moving anywhere.

 

Elderly person falls and cannot get up...

Younger person: You should get a nurse, move to retirement home, nursing facility.

Elderly person: No, I'm fine, this is where I lived whole life I am not moving anywhere.

 

Elderly person shits into their pants, bed, etc...

Younger person: You should get a nurse, move to retirement home, nursing facility.

Elderly person: No, I'm fine, this is where I lived whole life I am not moving anywhere.

 

:-\

 

(And this is without even touching the money side...)

[Jurgis]

Also it's a good idea to avoid retirement states where these lecherous cretins prey.

 

It may be fine to live there to collect low/no state taxes, but keep your assets in a trust elsewhere.

 

Finally, screw the corrupt assholes who are involved in all this. The judges, doctors, lawyers, etc. All of them can rot in hell. Makes my blood boil.

 

Yes.

[sarganaga]

Would an enduring power of attorney help prevent this? If your relative could present a court with a document saying "if I'm ever not in sound mind I appoint my son John smith my guardian" it seems like that would be governing, wouldn't it?

 

I'd be pretty young for someone to pull this on me, but it seem likely that the time to prepare for stuff like that is before you need to.

 

I am not a lawyer, so...

 

I think any defensive moves work in certain cases, don't work in others and result in even worse situation in yet others.

 

Yes, if you make a relative your guardian, this will work unless the court is corrupt/broken like in NewYorker article and moves guardianship to non-relative anyway. Especially if your relative is not resident of the state and only in-state guardians are allowed.

 

Also this puts a risk that your relative could take advantage of you. This might not be an issue for you personally, but for other people it might be (I know situations like that and there are articles about this too). Obviously the state guardian and judge in NewYorker article were evil. But look at it from different perspective: what if a relative is evil and milking old person? Then you'd want the state to appoint different guardian than the evil relative. How do you determine who's evil who's not? Yeah, in ideal world you can. In our world, it's not that easy. Of course the relative will say that they are not evil, the state guardian will say that they are not evil, and the court judge will say that they are not evil either.

 

The best thing is to have trustworthy relatives, trustworthy lawyers/advisors/doctors and live in a location that has trustworthy legal system. It might not be easy to get all of these, but it's worthwhile to try.  8)

 

Those are good points, with lots to think about. I'm more of the age where my elderly relatives are trusting me with stuff. Which works out great for them, because I'm honest and hardworking.  :D

 

But it does seem like a good idea to have a plan in place for things like this. I'm going to bring it up with my estate lawyer the next time we do our wills.

 

Yet another side of this - which you may be familiar with since you have elderly relatives:

 

(Some changes were made to protect the innocent):

 

Elderly person: Hi, who are you?

Younger person: I'm your kid. You should get a nurse, move to retirement home, nursing facility.

Elderly person: No, I'm fine, this is where I lived whole life I am not moving anywhere.

 

Elderly person leaves the gas turned on: I wanted to make tea

Younger person: You should get a nurse, move to retirement home, nursing facility.

Elderly person: No, I'm fine, this is where I lived whole life I am not moving anywhere.

 

Elderly person falls and cannot get up...

Younger person: You should get a nurse, move to retirement home, nursing facility.

Elderly person: No, I'm fine, this is where I lived whole life I am not moving anywhere.

 

Elderly person shits into their pants, bed, etc...

Younger person: You should get a nurse, move to retirement home, nursing facility.

Elderly person: No, I'm fine, this is where I lived whole life I am not moving anywhere.

 

:-\

 

(And this is without even touching the money side...)

 

Jurgis, This is certainly true. Dysfunctional/greedy families can be a big part of this. One of the top recommendations from people who have been through this is that families resolve their disputes without involving courts.

 

The situations that are most concerning are those where reasonably healthy people, without notice, are snatched up by professional guardians after secret hearings, isolated from their families & friends, drugged with "control medication", & financially exploited.

[Jurgis]

The situations that are most concerning are those where reasonably healthy people, without notice, are snatched up by professional guardians after secret hearings, isolated from their families & friends, drugged with "control medication", & financially exploited.

 

I hear ya, I hear ya.