drugs and prostitution

[Guest]

A truly rational person realizes that guilt is simply an evolutionary instinct. He (or she!) then rationalizes it away to increase material happiness (in whatever that does that makes them happy).

 

Are you talking about a character from a Marvel comic?

 

Were it to be possible to have such mastery of rationalization, guilt would never be experienced.

 

However, back to the real world.  We anticipate guilt and adjust behavior to avoid it.  Just like physical pain.

 

Perhaps that would be a great idea for the next mega franchise movie! Perhaps you should write Marvel. ;)

 

In all seriousness, I totally believe that one could avoid guilt if practiced long enough. There is a good amount of research that we can "rewrite" the nerual pathways in our brain given enough time and discipline.

[ERICOPOLY]

Paul,

What is guilt?  It is a form of social pain.

 

You feel physical pain when you harm yourself -- like if you cut your finger off.

 

You experience social pain when you harm your social group -- like if you cheat at the rules of your group.  This pain is experienced as an emotion, and it is what we call "guilt".

 

Social creatures are motivated by avoidance of guilt.  Violate the rules, experience the emotional pain (guilt).

 

Social creatures communicate a set of rules to each other.  These rules serve the best interests of the group.  Staying with a group had advantages to the individual.  But there must be an evolutionary trait that motivates all members of the group to stick together and to work within the agreed-upon rules.  That trait is guilt.  It is the punishment you privately experience when you work against the rules/goals of the social group.

 

 

It's obvious to me (me alone perhaps).

 

You might be able to completely block out guilt -- but not me.  No more so than cutting off my finger and trying to think about chocolate cake to avoid the pain.

 

[ERICOPOLY]

In all seriousness, I totally believe that one could avoid guilt if practiced long enough. There is a good amount of research that we can "rewrite" the nerual pathways in our brain given enough time and discipline.

 

I think it can be minimized through meditation.  Like those guys who hang themselves from meathooks or who put needles through their tongues.

 

But my mind is too weak for that.

[writser]

Further, I fail to see why quantum mechanics invalidates my argument. For instance, if God created everything and if we really are all connected (as quantum mechanics suggests), it fits quite well as to why we have all of these emotions, a sense of needing to belong, etc. Keep in mind I never came out an mentioned a particular deity as the one to follow. It's more of a philosophical topic at the core.

 

And you do it again :( . Quantum mechanics suggests nothing about humans being 'spiritually connected' or about 'a sense of belonging'. Let me repeat that: absolutely nothing! QM is just a set of formulae describing the behavior of very small particles / waves. All the other stuff: you made that up. Arguments like these really make me cringe. In fact, I would not even call the above an argument. It's just gibberish.

 

Please note again that I didn't state that QM invalidates your arguments. I just said that it doesn't validate them. Do you understand the difference? It's like we're talking about soft drinks and you try to prove that Coke is superior to Pepsi because of .... the Pythagorean theorem. A^2 + B^2 = C^2 ergo Coca Cola tastes better. You bring up a completely unrelated subject that serves no point in the discussion, except for trying to convince people (yourself?) by sounding very intellectual. Unfortunately that is a strategy successfully employed by priests and charlatans all over the world.

[rkbabang]

That's my style. But I'll admit that I'm a bit annoyed that you try to include quantum physics in your supernatural theories. You start by asserting that you feel prostitution is 'wrong'. To defend that you bring up religion. And to defend your religion you start talking about quantum physics. Your whole line of reasoning gets more and more convoluted as you get pushed into a corner. Quantum physics have nothing to do with the ethics of visiting a hooker. It's just math. And particles / waves / cats in boxes. And I think it's a pity that you have to mix that into the discussion to try to make a point. Why don't you just admit that you don't have a logical explanation for the things you believe in? That would be completely fine with me. Instead you are trying to rationalize your beliefs in (what I think is) a shaky way. Why? It's pointless. That's why they are called 'beliefs'.

 

Please note that I try not to argue about the validity of your beliefs, just about the way you try to defend them. All arguments you brought up so far for 'your god' can equally be used by the ISIS crazies in Iraq to defend their beheadings of children yet you feel morally superior to us non-believers.

 

What aspects of theism do you think I need to know more about? I hope you won't force me to read Quantum Faith :) .

 

How does quantum physics relate to the Bible?

Can words move mountains?

How did Jesus supersede the laws of physics?

 

There are amazing similarities between the teachings of Jesus and the discoveries of the new physics, quantum theory. The concept of speaking to mountains and trees may not be religious metaphor, but laws of a new physics that have not been fully understood.

 

Well, I suppose you've done little research on theistic arguments since avoided the topic. Further, I fail to see why quantum mechanics invalidates my argument. For instance, if God created everything and if we really are all connected (as quantum mechanics suggests), it fits quite well as to why we have all of these emotions, a sense of needing to belong, etc. Keep in mind I never came out an mentioned a particular deity as the one to follow. It's more of a philosophical topic at the core.

 

What I'm saying is that's okay to put people in a less than ideal position (like the doctor topic from before) if you get proper credit for it). You get more money, patients are happy (though they would have been happier with Drug A) and the hospital is happy (more revenue) - if God doesn't exist. Again, it's one evolutionary instinct vs another - they are both on the same playing field. If God does, exist, it's not okay (you're being selfish and virtually every religion preaches against that). I think most of us agree, though, that the first doctor Ted, really is the better of the two.

 

rk, I think we can both agree that Munger has a better understanding of Buffett's potential than any of us do. Those values most of us like about Buffet..guess what, he grew up in a pretty religious home. Where do most of us learn values? From home. And really, you don't think Buffett would have more than $58 billion or so if he ran a hedge fund over the past 40+ years (and didn't give to charity)?

 

 

No I really don't think Buffett would have more than $58 Billion if he ran a hedge fund.  Maybe $Billions, but I don't think he would ever have been among the richest 2-3 men on Earth.  There are other CEOs that have reached close to his wealth and Bill Gates has exceeded it, what other hedge fund manager has even came close?  I don't see the evidence that it is possible, he wouldn't have the insurance float to compound.  But that is straying way off topic.

 

You know, there is one point I will give you.  If it is possible to gain from doing something immoral and you know for certain that you can get away with it and overcome your guilt, than you are correct there is no big guy in the sky that will punish you for doing it.  Life isn't perfect and it isn't fair and it can't be made to be so.  I'm not sure why this bothers some people who want to put everything in the god-box and call it solved.  We all play the hands we're dealt and do the best we can and then we die.  That's it.  Creating some imaginary being in our heads doesn't really solve anything nor does it change anything.  Look at the crime statistics people still do immoral things, they always will.

 

[ERICOPOLY]

Look at the crime statistics people still do immoral things, they always will.

 

My theory of why we feel guilt would predict that those who don't "belong" to a group, or feel alienated from society, would therefore not feel guilt or would feel less of it. It's not "immoral" if you aren't violating a social rule -- you don't have any if you are not a part of society.  You know they exist, but you don't feel bound to them from a moral standpoint -- you won't be guilty of betraying a group to which you don't belong.

 

After all, if it's really the emotional embodiment of social pain, then you won't experience it if you don't belong to any social group that has a rule you are violating.

 

Let's say I wanted to get an 18 year old kid to kill another person.  I'd probably recruit him to a camp where I'd limit his interactions with outside society.  Within this camp, we would have a bunch of rules about how it's okay to kill the enemy in defense of yada yada yada.  We would haze him to tear him down and make him desperate to join our group -- then we would build him up and let him into the group.  He now feels close to his new group, so close they are his "band of brothers".  Now, he will feel guilty if he violates the rules of our group.  Like if he tries to run away from the group, he will feel guilty.  So we can tell him to strafe a bunch of people on the ground from a gunship, and he'll actually do it!  People he doesn't even know.  It's amazing.  He does all of this because he can't violate the rules of the group he now belongs to.  Amazing, he'll actually feel guilty about running away from orders to commit murder.  Surprising?  Not really, it's been done before to control soldiers.

[rkbabang]

Look at the crime statistics people still do immoral things, they always will.

 

My theory of why we feel guilt would predict that those who don't "belong" to a group, or feel alienated from society, would therefore not feel guilt or would feel less of it. It's not "immoral" if you aren't violating a social rule -- you don't have any if you are not a part of society.  You know they exist, but you don't feel bound to them from a moral standpoint -- you won't be guilty of betraying a group to which you don't belong.

 

After all, if it's really the emotional embodiment of social pain, then you won't experience it if you don't belong to any social group that has a rule you are violating.

 

Let's say I wanted to get an 18 year old kid to kill another person.  I'd probably recruit him to a camp where I'd limit his interactions with outside society.  Within this camp, we would have a bunch of rules about how it's okay to kill the enemy in defense of yada yada yada.  We would haze him to tear him down and make him desperate to join our group -- then we would build him up and let him into the group.  He now feels close to his new group, so close they are his "band of brothers".  Now, he will feel guilty if he violates the rules of our group.  Like if he tries to run away from the group, he will feel guilty.  So we can tell him to strafe a bunch of people on the ground from a gunship, and he'll actually do it!  People he doesn't even know.  It's amazing.  He does all of this because he can't violate the rules of the group he now belongs to.  Amazing, he'll actually feel guilty about running away from orders to commit murder.  Surprising?  Not really, it's been done before to control soldiers.

 

I agree completely with your theory.  We are no different from other pack animals in that regard right down to our males fighting with one another from time to time for dominance.  And your example of the mandatory public school "camps" instilling a feeling of "patriotism" to get children ready to join the military and kill the 'terrorists" when they are 18 is excellent.

 

[Guest]

Further, I fail to see why quantum mechanics invalidates my argument. For instance, if God created everything and if we really are all connected (as quantum mechanics suggests), it fits quite well as to why we have all of these emotions, a sense of needing to belong, etc. Keep in mind I never came out an mentioned a particular deity as the one to follow. It's more of a philosophical topic at the core.

 

And you do it again :( . Quantum mechanics suggests nothing about humans being 'spiritually connected' or about 'a sense of belonging'. Let me repeat that: absolutely nothing! QM is just a set of formulae describing the behavior of very small particles / waves. All the other stuff: you made that up. Arguments like these really make me cringe. In fact, I would not even call the above an argument. It's just gibberish.

 

Please note again that I didn't state that QM invalidates your arguments. I just said that it doesn't validate them. Do you understand the difference? It's like we're talking about soft drinks and you try to prove that Coke is superior to Pepsi because of .... the Pythagorean theorem. A^2 + B^2 = C^2 ergo Coca Cola tastes better. You bring up a completely unrelated subject that serves no point in the discussion, except for trying to convince people (yourself?) by sounding very intellectual. Unfortunately that is a strategy successfully employed by priests and charlatans all over the world.

 

And again, you totally avoid any mention of your research on theism. ;)

 

Doesn't QM suggest that everything in the universe is interconnected? A simple yes or no will suffice.

 

I have another question for you guys. What would make you believe in a deity? I've heard that "well, if he wrote in giant letters in the sky, that would do it." I'm looking for something a bit more subtle than a straight smack in the face.

[rkbabang]

Further, I fail to see why quantum mechanics invalidates my argument. For instance, if God created everything and if we really are all connected (as quantum mechanics suggests), it fits quite well as to why we have all of these emotions, a sense of needing to belong, etc. Keep in mind I never came out an mentioned a particular deity as the one to follow. It's more of a philosophical topic at the core.

 

And you do it again :( . Quantum mechanics suggests nothing about humans being 'spiritually connected' or about 'a sense of belonging'. Let me repeat that: absolutely nothing! QM is just a set of formulae describing the behavior of very small particles / waves. All the other stuff: you made that up. Arguments like these really make me cringe. In fact, I would not even call the above an argument. It's just gibberish.

 

Please note again that I didn't state that QM invalidates your arguments. I just said that it doesn't validate them. Do you understand the difference? It's like we're talking about soft drinks and you try to prove that Coke is superior to Pepsi because of .... the Pythagorean theorem. A^2 + B^2 = C^2 ergo Coca Cola tastes better. You bring up a completely unrelated subject that serves no point in the discussion, except for trying to convince people (yourself?) by sounding very intellectual. Unfortunately that is a strategy successfully employed by priests and charlatans all over the world.

 

And again, you totally avoid any mention of your research on theism. ;)

 

Doesn't QM suggest that everything in the universe is interconnected? A simple yes or no will suffice.

 

I have another question for you guys. What would make you believe in a deity? I've heard that "well, if he wrote in giant letters in the sky, that would do it." I'm looking for something a bit more subtle than a straight smack in the face.

 

The same thing that would make me believe in anything. Some concrete repeatable evidence.

 

Let's assume for the sake of argument that there is a god.  If there is a god and if he is what the faithful claim that he is, then he certainly could prove to everyone that he exists anytime he wishes, but he obviously is choosing not to.  He sure doesn't want to provide any concrete undeniable evidence for his existence, therefore I can only conclude that he either doesn't want us to believe in him or doesn't care either way.  I will respect his wishes to remain a mystery and not believe in him.  There is nothing that anyone could say to me, no anecdote anyone could tell me, or any words in some old book anyone could show me that would convince me.

[RichardGibbons]

Stahleyp, one of the problems with your "if morality doesn't come from God, then it's arbitrary and can be completely ignored" argument, is that it doesn't solve the arbitrary morality problem, since it still suffers from the "infinite pile of turtles" problem.  (Why doesn't the earth fall?  Because it's on the back of a turtle.  But why doesn't the turtle fall then?  Because it's on the back of the turtle too.)

 

With your morality argument, you're just adding a turtle.  It's arbitrary for you or it's arbitrary for the God.  If it's a good idea to ignore the fact that evolutionary development results in morality giving you happiness in one case, it's equally a good idea to ignore the fact that God is giving you you happiness in the other case.  Both cases are equally arbitrary.

[Guest]

Richard, I'll have to think more about your argument but here is the first thing that came to mind.

 

Let's say God's being is goodness and righteousness. In which case it isn't arbitrary - it is his being and essence.

 

We then have the free will to follow God's goodness or reject it.

 

 

rk, I'm curious and that's a respectable answer but how much are you really searching for his existence?

 

 

by the way guys, the girl I went out with was telling me about how her financial advisor tells her that she saves too much and that she should spend more. I like where this one is headed! ;)

[ERICOPOLY]

Let's assume for the sake of argument that there is a god.  If there is a god and if he is what the faithful claim that he is, then he certainly could prove to everyone that he exists anytime he wishes, but he obviously is choosing not to.  He sure doesn't want to provide any concrete undeniable evidence for his existence, therefore I can only conclude that he either doesn't want us to believe in him or doesn't care either way.  I will respect his wishes to remain a mystery and not believe in him. 

 

As I've said before, it's entirely possible that his game is simply to separate the people with integrity from the people without.

 

He doesn't want to spend eternity with just anyone.  He is selective.

 

So you pass his criteria by adhering to what you believe in, rather than believing in God merely because you are scared.

[ERICOPOLY]

On another note, if we are reborn and lived past lives, then how do you explain expanding global populations?

 

[writser]

Further, I fail to see why quantum mechanics invalidates my argument. For instance, if God created everything and if we really are all connected (as quantum mechanics suggests), it fits quite well as to why we have all of these emotions, a sense of needing to belong, etc. Keep in mind I never came out an mentioned a particular deity as the one to follow. It's more of a philosophical topic at the core.

 

And you do it again :( . Quantum mechanics suggests nothing about humans being 'spiritually connected' or about 'a sense of belonging'. Let me repeat that: absolutely nothing! QM is just a set of formulae describing the behavior of very small particles / waves. All the other stuff: you made that up. Arguments like these really make me cringe. In fact, I would not even call the above an argument. It's just gibberish.

 

Please note again that I didn't state that QM invalidates your arguments. I just said that it doesn't validate them. Do you understand the difference? It's like we're talking about soft drinks and you try to prove that Coke is superior to Pepsi because of .... the Pythagorean theorem. A^2 + B^2 = C^2 ergo Coca Cola tastes better. You bring up a completely unrelated subject that serves no point in the discussion, except for trying to convince people (yourself?) by sounding very intellectual. Unfortunately that is a strategy successfully employed by priests and charlatans all over the world.

 

And again, you totally avoid any mention of your research on theism. ;)

 

Doesn't QM suggest that everything in the universe is interconnected? A simple yes or no will suffice.

 

The problem with your question is that 'everything and 'interconnected' are very vague terms. Depending on their interpretation you can answer this question either way. I assume you are referring to quantum entanglement and similar effects. Do they exist? I think so. Does that mean that all humans are connected on a spiritual level (which I think is what you imply)? No, absolutely not. That's a very big 'leap of faith' you make (of course that was to be expected). In other words: just because A could in theory explain B does not mean that A implies B. The fact that Loch Ness is large enough to hide a monster does not imply that the monster exists ...

 

I have another question for you guys. What would make you believe in a deity? I've heard that "well, if he wrote in giant letters in the sky, that would do it." I'm looking for something a bit more subtle than a straight smack in the face.

 

Why would I look for something subtle? As far as I am concerned gods and yetis are uninteresting fairytales and I'll change my mind if somebody catches one. I don't see the point of wasting my time to try to find vague footprints in the snow. Others have been trying that for centuries without any tangible results. I'd rather do something more productive for society, like having this discussion.

[dolce far niente]

Others have been trying that for centuries without any tangible results. I'd rather do something more productive for society, like having this discussion.

 

+1

 

[rkbabang]

On another note, if we are reborn and lived past lives, then how do you explain expanding global populations?

 

My view on past lives is: So what?  Who cares?  If it is true and I lived before then that person that I was before is dead now, because all of his memories and thoughts are gone.  If I come back again and I don't remember this life, then this person who I am now will be dead.

 

Also, as you point out, there is no way to explain the growing population or how we evolved from ape-like creatures to be human, did the soul or whatever the essence of person-hood which comes back evolve too?.  Or how an animal with one unique genetic code could be the same animal born later with another unique genetic code.  It makes about as much sense as any other mystical belief.

 

[Guest]

Further, I fail to see why quantum mechanics invalidates my argument. For instance, if God created everything and if we really are all connected (as quantum mechanics suggests), it fits quite well as to why we have all of these emotions, a sense of needing to belong, etc. Keep in mind I never came out an mentioned a particular deity as the one to follow. It's more of a philosophical topic at the core.

 

And you do it again :( . Quantum mechanics suggests nothing about humans being 'spiritually connected' or about 'a sense of belonging'. Let me repeat that: absolutely nothing! QM is just a set of formulae describing the behavior of very small particles / waves. All the other stuff: you made that up. Arguments like these really make me cringe. In fact, I would not even call the above an argument. It's just gibberish.

 

Please note again that I didn't state that QM invalidates your arguments. I just said that it doesn't validate them. Do you understand the difference? It's like we're talking about soft drinks and you try to prove that Coke is superior to Pepsi because of .... the Pythagorean theorem. A^2 + B^2 = C^2 ergo Coca Cola tastes better. You bring up a completely unrelated subject that serves no point in the discussion, except for trying to convince people (yourself?) by sounding very intellectual. Unfortunately that is a strategy successfully employed by priests and charlatans all over the world.

 

And again, you totally avoid any mention of your research on theism. ;)

 

Doesn't QM suggest that everything in the universe is interconnected? A simple yes or no will suffice.

 

The problem with your question is that 'everything and 'interconnected' are very vague terms. Depending on their interpretation you can answer this question either way. I assume you are referring to quantum entanglement and similar effects. Do they exist? I think so. Does that mean that all humans are connected on a spiritual level (which I think is what you imply)? No, absolutely not. That's a very big 'leap of faith' you make (of course that was to be expected). In other words: just because A could in theory explain B does not mean that A implies B. The fact that Loch Ness is large enough to hide a monster does not imply that the monster exists ...

 

I have another question for you guys. What would make you believe in a deity? I've heard that "well, if he wrote in giant letters in the sky, that would do it." I'm looking for something a bit more subtle than a straight smack in the face.

 

Why would I look for something subtle? As far as I am concerned gods and yetis are uninteresting fairytales and I'll change my mind if somebody catches one. I don't see the point of wasting my time to try to find vague footprints in the snow. Others have been trying that for centuries without any tangible results. I'd rather do something more productive for society, like having this discussion.

 

I didn't say it one "absolutely" had to lead to another. I'm just saying that it can make sense. If everything is entangled, it may explain why we have some of the experiences that we do.

 

Well, I see your conclusions about tangible results a little disappointing - considering you've done almost no research on the topic. It's almost like a professor saying "look at the randomness of the market. I don't believe anyone can beat the market without luck." However, if you look at how often a relationship with God actually changes a person's life, you may reconsider the very viewpoint you so easily dismissed. 

 

So let's say God does exist, why would he let it be known - in absolute terms - that He exists? Wouldn't that then violate free will? In a similar vein, if a guy always knew his wife had a camera on him, he would never cheat on her. Now, that doesn't mean he's staying loyal with his heart though either. 

[20ppy]

That guy with a camera on him will just cheat differently… :)

[Dustin T]

Further, I fail to see why quantum mechanics invalidates my argument. For instance, if God created everything and if we really are all connected (as quantum mechanics suggests), it fits quite well as to why we have all of these emotions, a sense of needing to belong, etc. Keep in mind I never came out an mentioned a particular deity as the one to follow. It's more of a philosophical topic at the core.

 

And you do it again :( . Quantum mechanics suggests nothing about humans being 'spiritually connected' or about 'a sense of belonging'. Let me repeat that: absolutely nothing! QM is just a set of formulae describing the behavior of very small particles / waves. All the other stuff: you made that up. Arguments like these really make me cringe. In fact, I would not even call the above an argument. It's just gibberish.

 

Please note again that I didn't state that QM invalidates your arguments. I just said that it doesn't validate them. Do you understand the difference? It's like we're talking about soft drinks and you try to prove that Coke is superior to Pepsi because of .... the Pythagorean theorem. A^2 + B^2 = C^2 ergo Coca Cola tastes better. You bring up a completely unrelated subject that serves no point in the discussion, except for trying to convince people (yourself?) by sounding very intellectual. Unfortunately that is a strategy successfully employed by priests and charlatans all over the world.

 

And again, you totally avoid any mention of your research on theism. ;)

 

Doesn't QM suggest that everything in the universe is interconnected? A simple yes or no will suffice.

 

The problem with your question is that 'everything and 'interconnected' are very vague terms. Depending on their interpretation you can answer this question either way. I assume you are referring to quantum entanglement and similar effects. Do they exist? I think so. Does that mean that all humans are connected on a spiritual level (which I think is what you imply)? No, absolutely not. That's a very big 'leap of faith' you make (of course that was to be expected). In other words: just because A could in theory explain B does not mean that A implies B. The fact that Loch Ness is large enough to hide a monster does not imply that the monster exists ...

 

I have another question for you guys. What would make you believe in a deity? I've heard that "well, if he wrote in giant letters in the sky, that would do it." I'm looking for something a bit more subtle than a straight smack in the face.

 

Why would I look for something subtle? As far as I am concerned gods and yetis are uninteresting fairytales and I'll change my mind if somebody catches one. I don't see the point of wasting my time to try to find vague footprints in the snow. Others have been trying that for centuries without any tangible results. I'd rather do something more productive for society, like having this discussion.

 

I've got no issues with whether someone believes or does not believe but I worry that atheists are getting more militant. Yesterday I had Jehovah Witnesses knock on my door and while I'm sure others have had other experiences, all these gentlemen did was hand me a flyer. The modern Richard Dawkins style Atheist is pushier then any Jehovah witness I've ever met.

 

I think respect for anyone’s belief should be obvious. Comparing someone’s faith to Yeti's is I think a little too disrespectful. I understand it is a logical argument and I think it is a fair one. I'm just hoping the intent is more to argue a point and less to mock. Watching Dawkins construct and tear up straw men doesn't do much for me either.

 

God is not something you can prove or disprove. I've read all the mainstream arguments either way and I've yet to come across one that doesn't have some holes in it. Ultimately the fact that a universe spontaneously poofed into existence is fantastic enough for me to not discount any possibility out of hand.

 

I'm firmly with the believers, I think it's likely there is something more to this existence then we understand. I tend to think it highly unlikely that we are the pinnacle of intelligence in this universe, that its more likely that a superior intelligence has preceded us and quite possibly shaped and created us. I choose to live my life believing this existence is more of a test then just a random occurrence on a small dab of mud circling an insignificant star. I totally understand how many of you can feel that God is unlikely and I respect that opinion even if I don't concur.

 

I think Socrates whipped all of us fools when he wisely said. "I know one thing: that I know nothing" I hope you all realize that while you believe many different things there is much to this existence we do not understand and probably never will.

 

[rkbabang]

Richard, I'll have to think more about your argument but here is the first thing that came to mind.

 

Let's say God's being is goodness and righteousness. In which case it isn't arbitrary - it is his being and essence.

 

We then have the free will to follow God's goodness or reject it.

 

 

rk, I'm curious and that's a respectable answer but how much are you really searching for his existence?

 

 

by the way guys, the girl I went out with was telling me about how her financial advisor tells her that she saves too much and that she should spend more. I like where this one is headed! ;)

 

 

No I am not searching at all anymore.  When I was younger, I searched a lot.  I was raised in a strict Catholic Portuguese family, we went to church every week, I was an alterboy (never molested), made my confirmation, then pretty much never went to church again except for funerals and weddings.  My wife and I even decided not to get married in the church regardless of what our families thought about it.  I think I stopped believing in god about the time I stopped believing in Santa.  I remember kneeling on the altar serving mass, while the priest was blessing the Eucharist and thinking something along the lines of  "Here I am wearing a robe kneeling on an altar while a priest talks about sacrifice, gods, and turning wine into blood and bread into flesh, and we're all going to eat it.  How primitive." I would always look out at the congregation and think "These adults are really buying this shit? or are they just pretending to?"  I was about 10 years old.  As a teenager I read the Bible cover to cover and realized it was just a bunch of old stories that who knew who wrote them or why.  I started looking at every other religion from Zoroastrianism (In college I did a 200 page term paper on the history and practice of Zoroastrianism) to Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, and even new age religions like The Urantia Book (I spent more than a year reading the Urantia Book even attended a study group once per week), A Course in Miracles, etc.  And I realized at some point that they are all the same in that there isn't a shred of real evidence to support anything they claim. 

 

Now I don't look for evidence of god(s) any more than I would look for evidence of leprechauns or fairies in my garden.  One, because I don't expect to find any.  And 2, because it wouldn't make a difference if I did.  God doesn't answer any questions, it just moves the questions one level up, as RichardGibbons said it is just turtles all the way down.  For example.  Why is there something rather than nothing?  You could say god made it all, but then why is there a god rather than no god?  It is simply a re-statement of why is there something rather than nothing?  Why are we here?  You could say "god made us", but that answers nothing.  Why did god make us?  Where did god come from?  Why did he create this unbelievably large empty universe to stick us on this little rock? Not only is "god did it" a non-answer answer, but it is one with no evidence to back it up.  Where does morality come from?  You could say from god who is the embodiment of goodness.  But that doesn't answer anything.  How do you know what god is, because some old book written 2000+ years ago by superstitious desert tribesmen and sheep herders says so?  How did god decide what is good?  If god can make those judgments why can't we?  It answers nothing.  Any time you answer a question or a problem with "because god" it just moves the problem from being simply unknown to being unanswerable by definition.  I'd rather have an unknown.

 

 

By the way that girl sounds like a keeper, but tell her to ditch that financial advisor.

[Guest]

rk,

 

I sense a lot of arrogance in your statements. Perhaps you don't mean it that way but comes across like that. I can admire that you've actually done a good amount of research. Have you ever read CS Lewis' work?

 

A couple examples though as far as the arrogance: as a 10 year old, you realized that everyone in the church was stupid and primitive.

 

Or, perhaps if you were a bit more modest you'd realize that God can use people for great things. For instance those "superstitious tribesmen and sheepherders" changed the world. In fact, the initial group did it without help from a government, business or trade organization...all while being hunted down and persecuted.  Not bad for a bunch of superstitious sheepherders!

 

I do agree with you though that we should continue to find answers. I don't particular like the mindset of "God did it so I can stop looking", either.

 

yeah, I'm hoping to keep her around. This one seems like a keeper! Yeah, and this lasts, I'll be sure to be the financial advisor. haha

[Dorsia1]

Christopher Hitchens wrote a great book titled "God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything".

An accurate title. Religion has now poisoned this forum.

[Dustin T]

Christopher Hitchens wrote a great book titled "God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything".

An accurate title. Religion has now poisoned this forum.

 

Debates about religion can be distasteful. But I'm not sure how it's the people who believe who are ruining it. I think the Atheists haved worked just as hard probably harder to push their beliefs. Those who are choosing to post, are all willing participants, just as those who choose to keep reading whatever is posted in this thread are choosing to read it.

 

Hitchens ignores all the good religion has done and focuses on the bad, it's anti-religious propaganda. Not much different from Limbaugh or Bill Maher. All three are selling Kool-Aid and are best ignored imo.

[Guest]

Christopher Hitchens wrote a great book titled "God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything".

An accurate title. Religion has now poisoned this forum.

 

I wasn't overly impressed with it. Also, he wasn't not a very good debater either. He avoids topics and tries to use jokes to hide from the audience his lack of debating ability.

 

On a different note, his brother is a devout Christian. In my personal opinion, Peter seems a lot happier and more content in life than his brother ever was.

 

[Dorsia1]

Dustin T and StahleyP,

All you have said may be true but it doesn't change the fact that religion is nothing more than superstition.