Greece Votes "No"

[Jurgis]

We'll have to agree to differ!  I don't think such widely varying cultures and languages can be united under one government, especially with a broad history of hatred and violence that makes it so easy for nationalists (whom I hate) to stir sentiment.

 

So you just give up and basically support the nationalists (whom you hate)...

 

I'd rather be Europositive and fail than just give up.

[Jurgis]

instead of wasting so much time and resources trying to make this so-called EU work!

 

This "so-called EU" has brought jobs, well being and prosperity to a numerous people in Europe.

 

Of course, people easily forget all that when a crisis strikes.

 

And that's the problem with humans.

 

They are mostly nice people when things are going well. But when things are not going well, the ugliness starts.

[yadayada]

I really would not like a united states of Europe. You would get the same atrocities as in the US. You avoid that now by keeping things small. It would just be an inneficient mess. Youd get a lot of power abuse. It would mean another big layer of government, not sure what that would really add.

 

There is another thing people often miss when they compare US vs Europe, and that is different languages. It is just difficult to do business in France if you dont know it's language. So information does not flow as freely as in the US. A person from missisipi can easily move to New york or california, but a German person cannot easily move to France. The language barrier is real. And I think that also creates bigger cultural differences in turn. So harder to sort of roll your business out throughout Europe if your succesful in one or two countries.

 

@Jurgis: Then why are Denmark and Sweden doing so well? There is a difference between the euro and the EU. The EU will not fall apart if the euro falls apart.

 

And I think the euro will survive in some form. For example between a few rich countries. Or possibly a different currency for some of the poorer countries?

[Jurgis]

You would get the same atrocities as in the US.

 

I like US.

 

There's no point for me to continue this discussion.  8)

 

Take care

 

There is another thing people often miss when they compare US vs Europe, and that is different languages. It is just difficult to do business in France if you dont know it's language. So information does not flow as freely as in the US.

 

I have worked in two companies that had people and offices from across most Europe. The language barrier is not as high as you think.

[yadayada]

That is anecdotal evidence, statistical evidence suggests otherwise. My grandmother smoked cigarettes everyday and she became a 100 years old!

 

Logic also says otherwise. The more freely information can flow, the more wealth a country will have. Language barriers = obstacle to information flow. Especially since just english will not cut it in a lot of places in a lot of EU countries. There is a reason the prime minister of Singapore pushed really hard to make English the first language.

 

You can like the US and still consider that there is some aweful mismanagement there that you don't see in most EU countries (the rich ones at least). A large (probably mostly unsupervised) and powerful EU government, just seems like asking for trouble. The whole 2 party system is just god aweful. American politics just seems like one big joke. The alternative is many many parties with opposing interests, which also does not seem like a good idea with the big differences you have in the EU. It would paralize decision making.

 

Not that it will happen anyway, as there is no way these governments will give up power to a central entity.

 

How would you do elections anyway? What language would they speak in? Would a Spanish person vote for a German or Latvian EU president that will not even speak their language? Since cultural differences are stronger, won't a German president be biased in favor of germans? It will cost enourmous amounts of money to run campaigns probably = lobbying = corporations getting more influence then they should (the atrocities i was talking about).

 

Edit: Here is a paper on it:

http://www.econ.uzh.ch/eiit/Events/sinergiaconference2014/abstractsandpapers2014/Otten_Sebastian_Language_and_Cultural_Barriers_in_International_Factor_Movements.pdf

 

Conslusion is that language barriers affect the economic situation significantly.

 

Factor movements is basically how efficient labor is transferred. Since significant parts of southern Europe barely know english, or not at all, this really affects their economies.

[Jurgis]

You can like the US and still consider that there is some aweful mismanagement there that you don't see in most EU countries (the rich ones at least).

 

I am not so sure you know about the mismanagement in the "most EU countries".  ;)

 

How would you do elections anyway? What language would they speak in? Would a Spanish person vote for a German or Latvian EU president that will not even speak their language?

 

You are writing this as if Europarlament does not exist and EU institutions do not exist. Perhaps you should take a look at how they function and what language(s) they use.

[giofranchi]

This "so-called EU" has brought jobs, well being and prosperity to a numerous people in Europe.

 

I don’t know where you live… So I guess your country has benefited much from this “so-called” EU… And I won’t speak for Greece, nor Spain, nor Portugal, nor France, because I have never lived there (actually I have lived in Barcelona for two year, but let’s disregard that!)… I speak for Italy though: if you think this “so-called” EU, or worse still the Euro!, have “brought jobs, well being and prosperity” to Italy… well then, believe me, you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

Cheers,

 

Gio

 

[Jurgis]

This "so-called EU" has brought jobs, well being and prosperity to a numerous people in Europe.

 

I don’t know where you live… So I guess your country has benefited much from this “so-called” EU… And I won’t speak for Greece, nor Spain, nor Portugal, nor France, because I have never lived there (actually I have lived in Barcelona for two year, but let’s disregard that!)… I speak for Italy though: if you think this “so-called” EU, or worse still the Euro!, have “brought jobs, well being and prosperity” to Italy… well then, believe me, you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

Cheers,

 

Gio

 

Well, I know this guy called Gio who is attracting students for his business from around the Europe and then complains about EU.

 

Seems like inconsistency.

[Andy Dufresne]

This "so-called EU" has brought jobs, well being and prosperity to a numerous people in Europe.

 

I don’t know where you live… So I guess your country has benefited much from this “so-called” EU… And I won’t speak for Greece, nor Spain, nor Portugal, nor France, because I have never lived there (actually I have lived in Barcelona for two year, but let’s disregard that!)… I speak for Italy though: if you think this “so-called” EU, or worse still the Euro!, have “brought jobs, well being and prosperity” to Italy… well then, believe me, you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

Cheers,

 

Gio

 

I think Gio is spot on - I don't live in the EU but had the chance to see the effects of the Euro on another small economy - Cyprus - over frequent visits lasting a few years (starting when the Cypriot Pound was still the currency). After the Euro was introduced, prices for everything went up significantly in real terms, and new money poured in from both the EU and Russia to build a lot of expensive vacation units. However, in the longer term the price increases drove away those Northern Europeans, especially British, looking for a cheap vacation in the sun, on which the Cypriots had traditionally relied, to Egypt and other locales. I remember sitting at the bar of a hotel watching the 2010 World Cup only to have the owner of the hotel (a British/Cypriot) bemoan how they expected the hotel (and Cyprus) to be full of tourists and they actually had none.

[Jurgis]

People should stop equating EU with just Euro. You should realize that EU is much more than Euro.

[giofranchi]

Well, I know this guy called Gio who is attracting students for his business from around the Europe and then complains about EU.

 

Seems like inconsistency.

 

Well… You can attack me personally, if that makes you feel good…  ::)

 

But it doesn’t change the truth: all the good done by the EU for Italy has been destroyed by the Euro… Therefore, of course the EU is much more than the Euro, unfortunately though the Euro is a brainchild of the EU… If the Euro doesn’t work, probably something is not working well with the EU too!

 

Gio

 

[Hielko]

This "so-called EU" has brought jobs, well being and prosperity to a numerous people in Europe.

 

I don’t know where you live… So I guess your country has benefited much from this “so-called” EU… And I won’t speak for Greece, nor Spain, nor Portugal, nor France, because I have never lived there (actually I have lived in Barcelona for two year, but let’s disregard that!)… I speak for Italy though: if you think this “so-called” EU, or worse still the Euro!, have “brought jobs, well being and prosperity” to Italy… well then, believe me, you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

Cheers,

 

Gio

Any idea how Italy would have looked outside the EU?

[giofranchi]

Any idea how Italy would have looked outside the EU?

 

No, of course I don’t… I guess the same old Italy of the ‘80s and ‘90s… Not great, but neither suffering… Understand that inside Italy we have always struggled with the same problem the EU is facing now: a very productive north and an idle, much poorer south… And we have never been able to solve it! Northern Italy, before the introduction of the Euro, was one of the richest region in Europe… Probably no more!

 

Gio

 

[Hielko]

Ok, but if you don't know how Italy would have looked without the EU can you really say that it would have been better? Fwiw: I don't know that the answer is...

[giofranchi]

Ok, but if you don't know how Italy would have looked without the EU can you really say that it would have been better?

 

Of course it is very difficult to talk about something that hasn’t happened… Who really knows, right? But what about all the good economic effects introduced by the EU, without the debilitating economic effect introduced instead by the Euro? What about something as simple as that?

 

Gio

 

[Sportgamma]

This "so-called EU" has brought jobs, well being and prosperity to a numerous people in Europe.

 

I don’t know where you live… So I guess your country has benefited much from this “so-called” EU… And I won’t speak for Greece, nor Spain, nor Portugal, nor France, because I have never lived there (actually I have lived in Barcelona for two year, but let’s disregard that!)… I speak for Italy though: if you think this “so-called” EU, or worse still the Euro!, have “brought jobs, well being and prosperity” to Italy… well then, believe me, you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

Cheers,

 

Gio

Any idea how Italy would have looked outside the EU?

 

Ok, first of all being in or out of the Euro is not the same discussion as being in and out of the EU.

 

Regarding Italy without the Euro two things we know for sure.

- It would have been harder for the Italian government to seek finance from other countries. This is directly related to the theory of The Original Sin.

- The other thing is that the flexibility of an own currency would have counteracted the the lack of productivity compared to the west of Europe. Since Italy does not have control of monetary policy the only outcome is unemployment.

 

Think about this. When an economic shock hits a system (like it did in 2007-09) monetary policy can be used to (1) increase the money supply when the velocity of money falls and (2) adjust the currency rates to balance the economy and keep employment levels from falling. It does not make the economic prospects better but it dampens the shock and ensures people are employed. The policy in Europe has been to implement austerity and with a fixed currency the only outcome is unemployment.

 

Compare this to the USA. When a shock hits the system or a part of the system, the federal government has the power to jump in and bail out. The prime example of this is the Savings & Loan crisis which was primarily a Texan problem.

 

The current situation with Greece only goes to show how fragile the current Euro system is.

 

[Valuebo]

Wow mind-boggling if true:

 

 

Is Tsipras going to use his mandate for even more austerity? I guess he has little choice if he truly wants to avert a Grexit.

[Valuebo]

Can't make this up:

 

http://www.naftemporiki.gr/finance/story/976680/the-greek-reform-proposals

 

 

[Jurgis]

Can't make this up:

 

http://www.naftemporiki.gr/finance/story/976680/the-greek-reform-proposals

 

Is there something there in particular that you find funny/objectionable/etc.?

[Valuebo]

Can't make this up:

 

http://www.naftemporiki.gr/finance/story/976680/the-greek-reform-proposals

 

Is there something there in particular that you find funny/objectionable/etc.?

 

Yes. They just had a referendum a week ago that had almost the exact same proposals as this one. Sure, they will get some more money, but what did the last 6-8 months cost their economy? What about respecting the 'No'? So yes, quite funny and absurd to me. So long for being extremist lefties.

 

Btw, I "get" it. Their bluff was called and they had to fold. Tsipras isn't an extremist in the end. It just goes to show that the last half year was completely hopeless and gave the Greek people false hope. There is no other way that is sensible.

[muscleman]

Can't make this up:

 

http://www.naftemporiki.gr/finance/story/976680/the-greek-reform-proposals

 

Is there something there in particular that you find funny/objectionable/etc.?

 

Yes. They just had a referendum a week ago that had almost the exact same proposals as this one. Sure, they will get some more money, but what did the last 6-8 months cost their economy? What about respecting the 'No'? So yes, quite funny and absurd to me. So long for being extremist lefties.

 

Btw, I "get" it. Their bluff was called and they had to fold. Tsipras isn't an extremist in the end. It just goes to show that the last half year was completely hopeless and gave the Greek people false hope. There is no other way that is sensible.

 

I am confused to see lots of "Starting from July 1st 2015, we will xxxxx" statements. If this is submitted on July 9th, why do they say starting from July 1st? Is this an old proposal that they submitted and got turned down by EU?

 

Or did they do the job in such a lousy way that they didn't even bother to proof read and modify ""Starting from July 1st 2015" to ""Starting from July 13th 2015"?

 

Also, if they had agreed on this same terms 6 months ago, Greece would have been in a much better shape. Unfortunately Tsipras is an idiot.

[cobafdek]

So yes, quite funny and absurd to me. So long for being extremist lefties.

 

Ditto.  Also, Mythos does not taste very good.  Do you have a favorite brand of kriek to recommend for me watching this show for the weekend?

[Zorrofan]

Can't make this up:

 

http://www.naftemporiki.gr/finance/story/976680/the-greek-reform-proposals

 

Is there something there in particular that you find funny/objectionable/etc.?

 

Yes. They just had a referendum a week ago that had almost the exact same proposals as this one. Sure, they will get some more money, but what did the last 6-8 months cost their economy? What about respecting the 'No'? So yes, quite funny and absurd to me. So long for being extremist lefties.

 

Btw, I "get" it. Their bluff was called and they had to fold. Tsipras isn't an extremist in the end. It just goes to show that the last half year was completely hopeless and gave the Greek people false hope. There is no other way that is sensible.

 

Their bluff was called? You mean the creditors - whose brilliant reforms to-date helped create a depression in Greece as the economy contracted 25% - are forcing more austerity onto Greece.  Yes Greece needs to reform, it is long over due, but there is plenty of blame to go around. If Greece is a debt riddled spending junkie the EU is their dealer.  Even the IMF is calling for debt forgiveness.  Albert Einstein defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Apparently the EU feels that after 7 years of austerity the best thing is more austerity?  Again. plenty of blame and Greece needs to reform but lets have some compassion for the people of Greece.  Ask yourself "what would here if the economy contracted 25%" .......

[Valuebo]

Can't make this up:

 

http://www.naftemporiki.gr/finance/story/976680/the-greek-reform-proposals

 

Is there something there in particular that you find funny/objectionable/etc.?

 

Yes. They just had a referendum a week ago that had almost the exact same proposals as this one. Sure, they will get some more money, but what did the last 6-8 months cost their economy? What about respecting the 'No'? So yes, quite funny and absurd to me. So long for being extremist lefties.

 

Btw, I "get" it. Their bluff was called and they had to fold. Tsipras isn't an extremist in the end. It just goes to show that the last half year was completely hopeless and gave the Greek people false hope. There is no other way that is sensible.

 

I am confused to see lots of "Starting from July 1st 2015, we will xxxxx" statements. If this is submitted on July 9th, why do they say starting from July 1st? Is this an old proposal that they submitted and got turned down by EU?

 

Or did they do the job in such a lousy way that they didn't even bother to proof read and modify ""Starting from July 1st 2015" to ""Starting from July 13th 2015"?

 

Also, if they had agreed on this same terms 6 months ago, Greece would have been in a much better shape. Unfortunately Tsipras is an idiot.

 

Agreed. I simply believe he overestimated his hand and leverage over Europe.

 

 

So yes, quite funny and absurd to me. So long for being extremist lefties.

 

Ditto.  Also, Mythos does not taste very good.  Do you have a favorite brand of kriek to recommend for me watching this show for the weekend?

 

Hm yes Mythos isn't that special. Why are you asking me? Because I'm a Belgian drunk? ;D

 

If by kriek you mean the "beer with cherries flavor", I can't really help you as I'm not a big fan.

For other beers it depends on what you can buy in your country really. Where are you from? From some friendly Americans we met here in Ghent (aren't all American tourists overly friendly? ;D) and drank good beers with, we found out that they could barely buy anything better than a light beer locally, let alone a decent Belgian trappist like Rochefort, Chimay or one of the many others.

 

 

 

Can't make this up:

 

http://www.naftemporiki.gr/finance/story/976680/the-greek-reform-proposals

 

Is there something there in particular that you find funny/objectionable/etc.?

 

Yes. They just had a referendum a week ago that had almost the exact same proposals as this one. Sure, they will get some more money, but what did the last 6-8 months cost their economy? What about respecting the 'No'? So yes, quite funny and absurd to me. So long for being extremist lefties.

 

Btw, I "get" it. Their bluff was called and they had to fold. Tsipras isn't an extremist in the end. It just goes to show that the last half year was completely hopeless and gave the Greek people false hope. There is no other way that is sensible.

 

Their bluff was called? You mean the creditors - whose brilliant reforms to-date helped create a depression in Greece as the economy contracted 25% - are forcing more austerity onto Greece.  Yes Greece needs to reform, it is long over due, but there is plenty of blame to go around. If Greece is a debt riddled spending junkie the EU is their dealer.  Even the IMF is calling for debt forgiveness.  Albert Einstein defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Apparently the EU feels that after 7 years of austerity the best thing is more austerity?  Again. plenty of blame and Greece needs to reform but lets have some compassion for the people of Greece.  Ask yourself "what would here if the economy contracted 25%" .......

 

I'm not saying creditors aren't to blame, all parties are in a way.

 

As a European tax payer I feel that I have shown more compassion than most these last few years. Not only have I helped through taxes, I've also directly supported PIIGS & co quite a bit as well. I've visited Portugal twice and went to Greece mainland once (late last year) and later this year I'll be going to Spain and Iceland for a few weeks as well. Just sayin'...  :D While I go on vacation to have a good time, part of the reason I visit these places now is to support them. I do feel bad for those in Greece that can't catch a break, surrounded by relatively wealthy allies that are part of the problem. Maybe stating that I find the situation "funny" isn't the best way to put it...

 

But I'd love to go back to Athens now to see the difference. In an alternative universe I'd visit them where Syriza didn't get into power. Wonder if I would see and hear a difference...

[cobafdek]

In an alternative universe I'd visit them where Syriza didn't get into power. Wonder if I would see and hear a difference...

 

The best alternative universe was ancient Athens, where direct democracy was functional on the smaller scale of a city-state.  Referenda on the scale of modern societies are problematic, maybe even a joke, since a good case could be made that the average citizen (in any country) might not grasp the complexities of the situation.  Modern representative democracies need adults in the room, to quote SharperDingaan.  Tsipras punted by calling the referendum, acts like he now has a mandate, and only now tries to act like an adult by palming off more bitter medicine on his voters who maybe said they don't want any more?  A tragicomedy indeed.  I'll look for some Rochefort, and thanks for your armchair comments from closer to the scene.

 

So yes, quite funny and absurd to me. So long for being extremist lefties.

 

Ditto.  Also, Mythos does not taste very good.  Do you have a favorite brand of kriek to recommend for me watching this show for the weekend?

 

Hm yes Mythos isn't that special. Why are you asking me? Because I'm a Belgian drunk? ;D

 

If by kriek you mean the "beer with cherries flavor", I can't really help you as I'm not a big fan.

For other beers it depends on what you can buy in your country really. Where are you from? From some friendly Americans we met here in Ghent (aren't all American tourists overly friendly? ;D) and drank good beers with, we found out that they could barely buy anything better than a light beer locally, let alone a decent Belgian trappist like Rochefort, Chimay or one of the many others.

 

American and second generation Korean living in Southern California, where we have a retail beverage chain called BevMo that carries a wide variety of international beers, including Belgian.  We Koreans are called the Irish of Asia, so we can probably hold the Rocheforts and Chimays.  I enjoyed a kriek as a tourist while listening to Beethoven's Ninth in Brussels's Grote Markt about 35 years ago.