Losing Is Good For You

[Kiltacular]

Posted by: rkbabang

« on: September 26, 2013, 09:07:06 AM » Insert Quote

Quote from: Kiltacular on September 25, 2013, 10:46:31 PM

 

I think Buffett once said (or repeated): "How do you beat Michael Jordan?...Play him in something other than basketball."

 

 

"edit"

 

Or examine yourself to understand why you feel the need to beat Michael Jordan in the first place.

 

If you're kid isn't enjoying something, because he isn't good at it, maybe instead of ruining it for the other kids who are it would be better to encourage him to try something else.  I tried basketball in middle school and didn't last even a season.  I was horrible (maybe because I was shorter than most of the other kids).  So I stuck to baseball which I was at least okay.  In highschool I gave up sports all together and focused my time on music, something to which I was much better than average at.  I didn't demand my parents get rid of scoring in my town so that I could be happy doing something that I wasn't good at. Instead I found something that I could do.  This whole get rid of scoring, which is fundamental to the sport, is like saying "if my kid can't have fun doing this particular activity then no one can".  Making sure that your little prince or princess is happy in everything that they decide to do isn't the focus of all of humanity.  In fact it isn't even good for your kids to do this. If you make it easy for them to do things which they suck at, they may never find out what they are good at.

 

I've come back to this thread.

 

As someone with a young child, I'm going to have to deal with a lot of what was discussed here (and, maybe, in the thread about retail) in the coming years.  I was raised in a family that (over) prized academic outcomes versus both general sports results and "learning" and doing what you love.

 

I won't say it failed for me.  But, I didn't enjoy it.  I was pretty good at sports and didn't mind losing.  I liked teams much better than individual (I think for the right reasons).  In any case, that was not prized in my family.  I did well in school but I'd say I never figured out what I really enjoyed as the goal (the edict from above) was to get the grade.

 

I didn't like to lose but I don't think I was a sore loser.  The quote of me from above had to do, in my mind, not with Buffett (or yours truly) wanting to beat Michael Jordan.  I feel the quote assumes you can't beat Michael Jordan (that's why he's a useful example) -- it's not about him, per se, but about something you might want to play (or do) but are facing a situation where you cannot win and would prefer not to simply be a lamb leading himself to slaughter but rather to fight on and try to win in another way or at another point in time.  I agree with what rkbabang wrote in the rest of the missive.

 

 

Posted by: SI

« on: Today at 11:11:47 AM » Insert Quote

 

 

saw this quote which I thought this thread would appreciate.

 

When a man is pushed, tormented, defeated, he has a chance to learn something; he has been put on his wits...he has gained facts, learned his ignorance, is cured of the insanity of conceit, has got moderation and real skill.

Ralph Waldo Emerson

 

This is a succinct way of getting across the idea of "never giving up."  In fact, eventually, you do often have to give up (or lose) but before that you will have achieved what Emerson thinks is useful about a hard-earned loss.  It does make sense to play those games even if losing is certain.  It might make sense to reward kids for participating in these situations.  Some kids get better but won't if they give up because there are no rewards.

 

I guess what I'm asking is:  How do other fathers of young children feel on these matters -- both sports and academic?  I know the way it was done when I was a child and I don't think much of that method.  But perhaps I'm too quick to throw it away without some education on the alternatives.  What do others feel they "should" do irrespective of what they (may) hope their child achieves?  Or, are those things always aligned for most of you?

 

I simply want my kid to figure out what he likes and pursue it.  But, I don't want a sore loser or someone who quits before they have a chance to figure out whether they might like the activity.

 

Thoughts appreciated but none expected :)

 

--

Note: Edited for clarity

[twacowfca]

Posted by: rkbabang

« on: September 26, 2013, 09:07:06 AM » Insert Quote

Quote from: Kiltacular on September 25, 2013, 10:46:31 PM

 

I think Buffett once said (or repeated): "How do you beat Michael Jordan?...Play him in something other than basketball."

 

 

"edit"

 

Or examine yourself to understand why you feel the need to beat Michael Jordan in the first place.

 

If you're kid isn't enjoying something, because he isn't good at it, maybe instead of ruining it for the other kids who are it would be better to encourage him to try something else.  I tried basketball in middle school and didn't last even a season.  I was horrible (maybe because I was shorter than most of the other kids).  So I stuck to baseball which I was at least okay.  In highschool I gave up sports all together and focused my time on music, something to which I was much better than average at.  I didn't demand my parents get rid of scoring in my town so that I could be happy doing something that I wasn't good at. Instead I found something that I could do.  This whole get rid of scoring, which is fundamental to the sport, is like saying "if my kid can't have fun doing this particular activity then no one can".  Making sure that your little prince or princess is happy in everything that they decide to do isn't the focus of all of humanity.  In fact it isn't even good for your kids to do this. If you make it easy for them to do things which they suck at, they may never find out what they are good at.

 

I've come back to this thread.

 

As someone with a young child, I'm going to have to deal with a lot of what was discussed here (and, maybe, in the thread about retail) in the coming years.  I was raised in a family that (over) prized academic outcomes versus both general sports results and "learning" and doing what you love.

 

I won't say it failed for me.  But, I didn't enjoy it.  I was pretty good at sports and didn't mind losing.  I liked teams much better than individual (I think for the right reasons).  In any case, that was not prized in my family.  I did well in school but I'd say I never figured out what I really enjoyed as the goal (the edict from above) was to get the grade.

 

I didn't like to lose but I don't think I was a sore loser.  The quote of me from above had to do, in my mind, not with Buffett (or yours truly) wanting to beat Michael Jordan.  I feel the quote assumes you can't beat Michael Jordan (that's why he's a useful example) -- it's not about him, per se, but about something you might want to play (or do) but are facing a situation where you cannot win and would prefer not to simply be a lamb leading himself to slaughter but rather to fight on and try to win in another way or at another point in time.  I agree with what rkbabang wrote in the rest of the missive.

 

 

Posted by: SI

« on: Today at 11:11:47 AM » Insert Quote

 

 

saw this quote which I thought this thread would appreciate.

 

When a man is pushed, tormented, defeated, he has a chance to learn something; he has been put on his wits...he has gained facts, learned his ignorance, is cured of the insanity of conceit, has got moderation and real skill.

Ralph Waldo Emerson

 

This is a succinct way of getting across the idea of "never giving up."  In fact, eventually, you do often have to give up (or lose) but before that you will have achieved what Emerson thinks is useful about a hard-earned loss.  It does make sense to play those games even if losing is certain.  It might make sense to reward kids for participating in these situations.  Some kids get better but won't if they give up because there are no rewards.

 

I guess what I'm asking is:  How do other fathers of young children feel on these matters -- both sports and academic?  I know the way it was done when I was a child and I don't think much of that method.  But perhaps I'm too quick to throw it away without some education on the alternatives.  What do others feel they "should" do irrespective of what they (may) hope their child achieves?  Or, are those things always aligned for most of you?

 

I simply want my kid to figure out what he likes and pursue it.  But, I don't want a sore loser or someone who quits before they have a chance to figure out whether they might like the activity.

 

Thoughts appreciated but none expected :)

 

--

Note: Edited for clarity

 

We are all different, and our areas of giftedness become manifest in early childhood.  What toughened up Emerson might defeat or destroy others.  He was an "Invictus" kind of guy. 

 

Discover your children's tropisms, what they like to do and do very well.  Then, you'll see how to facilitate the exercise and development of those gifts.  :)

[EdWatchesBoxing]

Even if the emphasis was placed on academics over sports, there can still be a strong sense of competition. I remember first year engineering school, right after a test, there was this one guy who would always ask everyone else "what did you get?" LOL

 

I think learning to cope with losing/failure is an important life lesson. You learn how to push forward with things that matter. I know I can be an extremely competitive person. When I really care about something, I won't quit, even if I end up really pissed off as I reach my goal. As I get older though, individual challenges push me forward. I care less about my relative performance (except with investing) and I care more about meeting my own personal goals.

 

Getting rid of scoring is stupid. The earlier you filter out the kids that aren't having fun, the better it will be for everyone involved.  This makes me think of the apparent grade inflation happening in schools these days.

 

[rkbabang]

Posted by: rkbabang

« on: September 26, 2013, 09:07:06 AM » Insert Quote

Quote from: Kiltacular on September 25, 2013, 10:46:31 PM

 

I think Buffett once said (or repeated): "How do you beat Michael Jordan?...Play him in something other than basketball."

 

 

"edit"

 

Or examine yourself to understand why you feel the need to beat Michael Jordan in the first place.

 

If you're kid isn't enjoying something, because he isn't good at it, maybe instead of ruining it for the other kids who are it would be better to encourage him to try something else.  I tried basketball in middle school and didn't last even a season.  I was horrible (maybe because I was shorter than most of the other kids).  So I stuck to baseball which I was at least okay.  In highschool I gave up sports all together and focused my time on music, something to which I was much better than average at.  I didn't demand my parents get rid of scoring in my town so that I could be happy doing something that I wasn't good at. Instead I found something that I could do.  This whole get rid of scoring, which is fundamental to the sport, is like saying "if my kid can't have fun doing this particular activity then no one can".  Making sure that your little prince or princess is happy in everything that they decide to do isn't the focus of all of humanity.  In fact it isn't even good for your kids to do this. If you make it easy for them to do things which they suck at, they may never find out what they are good at.

 

I've come back to this thread.

 

As someone with a young child, I'm going to have to deal with a lot of what was discussed here (and, maybe, in the thread about retail) in the coming years.  I was raised in a family that (over) prized academic outcomes versus both general sports results and "learning" and doing what you love.

 

I won't say it failed for me.  But, I didn't enjoy it.  I was pretty good at sports and didn't mind losing.  I liked teams much better than individual (I think for the right reasons).  In any case, that was not prized in my family.  I did well in school but I'd say I never figured out what I really enjoyed as the goal (the edict from above) was to get the grade.

 

I didn't like to lose but I don't think I was a sore loser.  The quote of me from above had to do, in my mind, not with Buffett (or yours truly) wanting to beat Michael Jordan.  I feel the quote assumes you can't beat Michael Jordan (that's why he's a useful example) -- it's not about him, per se, but about something you might want to play (or do) but are facing a situation where you cannot win and would prefer not to simply be a lamb leading himself to slaughter but rather to fight on and try to win in another way or at another point in time.  I agree with what rkbabang wrote in the rest of the missive.

 

 

Posted by: SI

« on: Today at 11:11:47 AM » Insert Quote

 

 

saw this quote which I thought this thread would appreciate.

 

When a man is pushed, tormented, defeated, he has a chance to learn something; he has been put on his wits...he has gained facts, learned his ignorance, is cured of the insanity of conceit, has got moderation and real skill.

Ralph Waldo Emerson

 

This is a succinct way of getting across the idea of "never giving up."  In fact, eventually, you do often have to give up (or lose) but before that you will have achieved what Emerson thinks is useful about a hard-earned loss.  It does make sense to play those games even if losing is certain.  It might make sense to reward kids for participating in these situations.  Some kids get better but won't if they give up because there are no rewards.

 

I guess what I'm asking is:  How do other fathers of young children feel on these matters -- both sports and academic?  I know the way it was done when I was a child and I don't think much of that method.  But perhaps I'm too quick to throw it away without some education on the alternatives.  What do others feel they "should" do irrespective of what they (may) hope their child achieves?  Or, are those things always aligned for most of you?

 

I simply want my kid to figure out what he likes and pursue it.  But, I don't want a sore loser or someone who quits before they have a chance to figure out whether they might like the activity.

 

Thoughts appreciated but none expected :)

 

--

Note: Edited for clarity

 

We are all different, and our areas of giftedness become manifest in early childhood.  What toughened up Emerson might defeat or destroy others.  He was an "Invictus" kind of guy. 

 

Discover your children's tropisms, what they like to do and do very well.  Then, you'll see how to facilitate the exercise and development of those gifts.  :)

 

I would agree with that.  I like how I was raised and try to do the same for my kids.  I was never pushed into anything.  My parents didn't care if I wanted to participate in any activity or not, and never tried to dissuade me when I decided to quit and try something else (or even nothing).  They let me know that they thought education was important (my dad never went to school at all and never learned to read or write), but I was never fearful of being punished or disciplined in any way for bad grades.  They pretty much let me choose my own path and let me know that what I did was in the end up to me.  My wife and I have tried to use a similar philosophy with our children and (so far) it seems to be working out well.

[returnonmycapital]

Posted by: rkbabang

« on: September 26, 2013, 09:07:06 AM » Insert Quote

Quote from: Kiltacular on September 25, 2013, 10:46:31 PM

 

I think Buffett once said (or repeated): "How do you beat Michael Jordan?...Play him in something other than basketball."

 

 

"edit"

 

Or examine yourself to understand why you feel the need to beat Michael Jordan in the first place.

 

If you're kid isn't enjoying something, because he isn't good at it, maybe instead of ruining it for the other kids who are it would be better to encourage him to try something else.  I tried basketball in middle school and didn't last even a season.  I was horrible (maybe because I was shorter than most of the other kids).  So I stuck to baseball which I was at least okay.  In highschool I gave up sports all together and focused my time on music, something to which I was much better than average at.  I didn't demand my parents get rid of scoring in my town so that I could be happy doing something that I wasn't good at. Instead I found something that I could do.  This whole get rid of scoring, which is fundamental to the sport, is like saying "if my kid can't have fun doing this particular activity then no one can".  Making sure that your little prince or princess is happy in everything that they decide to do isn't the focus of all of humanity.  In fact it isn't even good for your kids to do this. If you make it easy for them to do things which they suck at, they may never find out what they are good at.

 

I've come back to this thread.

 

As someone with a young child, I'm going to have to deal with a lot of what was discussed here (and, maybe, in the thread about retail) in the coming years.  I was raised in a family that (over) prized academic outcomes versus both general sports results and "learning" and doing what you love.

 

I won't say it failed for me.  But, I didn't enjoy it.  I was pretty good at sports and didn't mind losing.  I liked teams much better than individual (I think for the right reasons).  In any case, that was not prized in my family.  I did well in school but I'd say I never figured out what I really enjoyed as the goal (the edict from above) was to get the grade.

 

I didn't like to lose but I don't think I was a sore loser.  The quote of me from above had to do, in my mind, not with Buffett (or yours truly) wanting to beat Michael Jordan.  I feel the quote assumes you can't beat Michael Jordan (that's why he's a useful example) -- it's not about him, per se, but about something you might want to play (or do) but are facing a situation where you cannot win and would prefer not to simply be a lamb leading himself to slaughter but rather to fight on and try to win in another way or at another point in time.  I agree with what rkbabang wrote in the rest of the missive.

 

 

Posted by: SI

« on: Today at 11:11:47 AM » Insert Quote

 

 

saw this quote which I thought this thread would appreciate.

 

When a man is pushed, tormented, defeated, he has a chance to learn something; he has been put on his wits...he has gained facts, learned his ignorance, is cured of the insanity of conceit, has got moderation and real skill.

Ralph Waldo Emerson

 

This is a succinct way of getting across the idea of "never giving up."  In fact, eventually, you do often have to give up (or lose) but before that you will have achieved what Emerson thinks is useful about a hard-earned loss.  It does make sense to play those games even if losing is certain.  It might make sense to reward kids for participating in these situations.  Some kids get better but won't if they give up because there are no rewards.

 

I guess what I'm asking is:  How do other fathers of young children feel on these matters -- both sports and academic?  I know the way it was done when I was a child and I don't think much of that method.  But perhaps I'm too quick to throw it away without some education on the alternatives.  What do others feel they "should" do irrespective of what they (may) hope their child achieves?  Or, are those things always aligned for most of you?

 

I simply want my kid to figure out what he likes and pursue it.  But, I don't want a sore loser or someone who quits before they have a chance to figure out whether they might like the activity.

 

Thoughts appreciated but none expected :)

 

--

Note: Edited for clarity

 

We are all different, and our areas of giftedness become manifest in early childhood.  What toughened up Emerson might defeat or destroy others.  He was an "Invictus" kind of guy. 

 

Discover your children's tropisms, what they like to do and do very well.  Then, you'll see how to facilitate the exercise and development of those gifts.  :)

 

I would agree with that.  I like how I was raised and try to do the same for my kids.  I was never pushed into anything.  My parents didn't care if I wanted to participate in any activity or not, and never tried to dissuade me when I decided to quit and try something else (or even nothing).  They let me know that they thought education was important (my dad never went to school at all and never learned to read or write), but I was never fearful of being punished or disciplined in any way for bad grades.  They pretty much let me choose my own path and let me know that what I did was in the end up to me.  My wife and I have tried to use a similar philosophy which our children and (so far) it seems to be working out well.

 

Congratulations. You are right minded and your children will greatly appreciate your efforts. They won't just love you, they will also like you.

[Kiltacular]

Thanks for the genuine replies from you fellows.