frog03

I sometimes see Watsa and Buffett compared but in my mind Watsa is very far from Buffet in both ability and integrity: 1) Performance. The BVPS of FFH has gone similarly to BRK but 1) in a much more lumpy way (FFH was in no great shape some years back and things could have taken a turn for the worse fairly easily) 2) on a much smaller duration and 3) with much more leverage (compare the equity/assets ratio even now of BRK vs FFH). 2) Integrity. Buffett would not issue stock above fair value or own separate voting class stock. So, yes Watsa is very very good but he is definitely very ver far from Buffett.

Oops, sorry here is the right link for target: http://www.targetasset.com/

Not necessarily easy to track hedge funds vs mutual funds but here is a quick list of mutual funds with long historic records/managers: US : CGMFX (Ken Heeber) Canada : Sprott Canadian Equity (Sprott) FrontStreet Special Opportunities (since 1999 with Lamarche) and Vertex (Vertex team) Norway : Skagen Global Asia : in addition to Appolo, www.targetfund.com has a great record.

I am somewhat disappointed that collectively we could not come up with much...

Omagh, care to share your spreadsheet?

Job situation terrible Debt (in US especially, see the last note by Eric Sprott in markets at a glance) terrible Peak Oil (everybody forgets about it but it is still very much happening) terrible Very hard to get excited by most equity prices after the huge run up.

Thanks for the report guys.

Did you guys learn anything interesting?

The textile business has been a very insignificant part of BRK except for the very first few years under Buffett Here with SNS you are betting on a skilled manager in a bad industry. Remember what Buffett says when things like things happen, the manager is likely to loose his reputation... ***************** For the ultimate refutation of your argument-- BRK. Textile manufacturers were the archetype of capital destroying businesses. They produce an undifferentiated commodity with necessary capital expenditures with all the benefits going to the customers, and for virtually every other textile manufacturer you would have been right. BUT by the logic above you also would not have bought BRK!

Agree with initial suggestion for North American ideas. I would not be comfortable at all with SNS though. Carlo Cannell had a slide several years back listing sectors destroying investors' capital and that therefore could be fertile stock shorting ideas (restaurants, airlines, seminconductors, and one or two others). Sardar may be great, though his track record is based on minuscule assets the first years, but the restaurant business is very tough. Would Warren answer SNS if asked your question. I very highly doub it.

I am thinking more along the lines of a company mgr (like my four names) than a mutual/hedge manager but OK, who is your nominee?

There was Singleton. There is Buffett, C&S, Watsa. Who is on your radar screen to be the next great one? Should have both a superior and long-enough track record and be well below 50. Can't think of one. Can you?

You are right to mention that the track record in itself does not tell the whole story as different levels of leverage, concentration, even asset classes can be used. This being said, the two that Sanjeev mentions while they handily beat the market long term are very definitely quite a few points below the best in class...

Both my friends, Tim McElvaine and Francis Chou, are simply the two greatest guys in the value investing world. Sanjeev, I don't know these two gentlement personally and I am sure they are very fine individuals. This being said, their track record, while very good, is very far from the best even in Canada (look at the record of Sprott and Lamarche for instance) and of course very very far from the best in the world. And there got to be great guys outside Canada too that you probably don't know... This being said, the book is great. I had mentionned it earlier on this site some months ago.

The semi-annual report came out recently and it looks like they don't own a single share of Berkshire in the fund. I know they had materially cut the position over the last year or so but did not expect to not see a single share...

rohit (last name?), eric sprott, and norm lamarche all in a closed-end fund. Bob Thompson mentionned a closed-end fund that has this three great managers and trades at a discount of about 20%. Where can I find info about this fund?

Updated data on http://www.formulainvesting.com/ Considering the amazingly good results over the last 20 years, are any of you using this strategy or something either based on it or similar? Sure appears to beat essentially all mutual funds and hedge funds...

Sanjeev, are the 17% net of fees? vs the SnP 500 dividendends revinvested? If yes to bothm this is very impressive indeed (though some folks have done even better such as Sprott...)

Yes, I had read his newsletter thanks but was wondering about the actual picks. No question that his discipline appears second to none, he would even be ahead of Buffett in this department!

Any idea to find out what he has been buying? Disclosures on sedar or somewhere else? thanks

Thanks, very interesting. From 1990 to 2001 Klarman seriously underperformed the S&P 500. There is no question he beat the indices from 2001 till now but would be interesting to know by how much on a year to year basis. Anybody got this information?

In a way, it makes sense for everybody to always learn and improve his investment strategy. On a second note, I believe Pabrai self confidence got dammaged these last couple years. Overall, Pabrai has lost a lot considerable money (even more so adjusted for taxes/inflation) for investors since his spectacular returns were concentrated the last few years. Pabrai and Trapeze (on another thread) show how hard it is to beat the market long term by more than a few percentage points.

Sanjeev, you are a smart guy but on this issue, I think you are missing the facts: In regards to the Sprott or Chou comment, they are different types of managers. Sprott has better absolute numbers, >>> yes, about 19% vs 10% long term (Chou Associates vs Sprott Canadian Equity). So Chou has slightly outperformed the indices when Sprott has literally killed them. but he also shorts a fair amount >>> In the Canadian Equity, he can short up to twenty % of assets and only since mid 2005. This is responsible for a very very small portion of the outperformance since 1997! and will concentrate his fund in specific sectors. Take a look at his Canadian Growth fund. It's got about an 80% concentration in commodities! >>> So what? The commodities include a variety of sectors (precious metals, base metals, energy, ..) they don't all move in sync and various companies in the individual sectors perform differently. Nobody precludes you, me or Chou to go there for a significant part of our assets. One could be in auto, financials, homebuilding, and retailers and appear not concentrated but would still be very dependend on the consumer spending. He also uses leverage from time to time. >>> never on the mutual fund. The difference between the two narrows considerably if they had the same constraints. >>> except fort the shorting you don't list any different constraints. And I haven't seen Sprott refund any of his management fees after the punishment he took in most of his funds this year as well. Cheers! >>> Comparing the longers funds, you see the huge difference. Chou is very nice and humble and has good performance. Sprott is absolutely unbelievable and kills Chou's performance refund or not. Maybe this will change int he future but they are definitely not in the same class in my book, at least performance wise.

Francis Chou is a very decent and fair manager. This being said, given the choice of him vs. Sprott, I would not hesitate. Sprott has materially higher returns over whatever long-term periods one chooses. And the returns, similarly to Chou, have been accomplished with lots of cash at various times.

Interesting to see the BVPS around 11 (from 25 a year earlier). Probably down a bit more with ACF and JEF being significantly down YTD. I'd think the stock price will go down a bit more to reflect these numbers.