Beginning of the End of Car Ownership as We Know It

[WayWardCloud]

Agreed, I would definitely not send my car carrying random people around town either! From a hygiene perspective but more importantly for liability reasons. The good thing about those concerns is it's not an option anyway. Not now and not anytime soon, probably ever. I'm aware Tesla has been promising it for years but that's not where the AV industry is going. True autonomous vehicle companies do not have this business model and we really need to differentiate them from whatever Elon Musk's and Cathie Wood's latest hallucinations are.

 

AVs require remote operators monitoring, regular censor checks and cabin cleaning. You can think of a fleet of AVs as a fleet of Boeings. You can only use them if you also have qualified air controllers, qualified quality control technicians and a team of cleaners babying your planes 24/7 and taking legal responsibility. Feasible as a company but not as an individual. Actually Cruise recently hired Gil West who is an ex Delta exec to be COO.

 

That was the technological and legal aspect. Now for the cleanliness part, it's just like any taxi service. Yes some people will trash it but most won't and the ones who do will be on video and their credit card already on file so it's easy to charge them the cleaning fee and/or ban them from the service. The next generation purpose built AVs (Origin and Zeeker) are also being build with interior ease of cleaning and longevity in mind, unlike Ubers and Lyfts who use normal cars that are definitely not designed with heavy duty in mind for their back seats and still make it work just fine. I don't foresee this being an issue at all.

Edited August 14, 2023 by WayWardCloud

[thepupil]

I read @rkbabang's rant in the voice of Daniel Plainview

 

[Gregmal]

2 hours ago, rkbabang said:

 

Yes, people in the car unsupervised will trash them.  The seats will be damaged and stained by who knows what.  They will be full of graffiti.   It will be a regular occurrence to have one of these arrive with puke in it on a Saturday night.  people will do all kinds of things they would never do in a taxi or Uber with a driver there.   Anything public is gross.  I don't know about anyone else (maybe I'm just an elitist asshole) is that I wouldn't use an AV ride service even if it was cheaper, quicker, and more convenient.   I get grossed out every time I take a bus, or a subway, or even a plane ride.  I don't want to be around these people, even if it means using the car by myself after they do.   I don't want to sit on the seats or touch the handles/armrests/handholds/etc.    It's the same reason I won't shop at Walmart even if I could save money by doing so.   Even if the AV doesn't get to me smelling like B.O., puke, or piss (as many subway cars always do), I'd be imagining that the last people in it were un-showered, greasy haired, drug attics in their un-washed pajama pants heading to Walmart.   I'll pay more, even a lot more, to drive myself sitting in my clean private car with heated/ventilated leather seats.  I've always said there is only one thing I envy about the ultra-rich.  It isn't their mega-mansions, or their yachts.  It isn't their supercars or anything else.  It's their ability to fly private and avoid, not just the security, but the people at the airport and on the plane.  My wife and I will often take the extra time to drive places when it would have been much easier to fly, or most of the time just avoid traveling altogether simply to avoid air-travel.  Technology isn't really the problem with AVs, like most things, people are.

 

I fell in love with the convenience of everything you describe above during COVID. Late 2020/early 2021 we drove to Florida instead of flying with all the scoundrels and stupid restrictions. Did 3 days of 6-7 hours driving each and stayed in $700-1200 a night places on the water the entire way down for $70-100 a night because of the hoax. Now of course we re staying at the same places and it’s hardly cheap, but once you get away from the scum you just don’t go back. Same way I’ll never take public transit to NYC again. 

[rkbabang]

2 hours ago, thepupil said:

I read @rkbabang's rant in the voice of Daniel Plainview

 

 

[Parsad]

7 hours ago, alexmiddle said:

It does not seem that Aibnb has replaced people's desire to own their own vacation home that they utilize only 5-10% a year.  There is a strong bias for people to own something even if it does not make economic sense.  Lots of people own F-150's who only haul 1 big load of gardening supplies from Home Depot every year.  I love Uber, I think autonomous ride sharing is great and will make big strides in grow.  I just think people will be people.  Who would have thought 25 years ago when they introduced self-checkout, we would still have cashiers in major grocery stores?

 

Owning your home or cottage is an asset...not a liability like a vehicle. 

 

Regarding grocery stores...if you go into most grocery stores today, more than half the checkouts are self-checkout.  That trend will probably not stop.

 

What if you could walk into a grocery store, fill your cart with your groceries in the bags you brought, and just wheel your cart out of the store.  You would be automatically charged by sensors as you exited and they didn't overcharge.  Would you still go to a cashier?

 

Cheers!

[Parsad]

5 hours ago, rkbabang said:

 

Yes, people in the car unsupervised will trash them.  The seats will be damaged and stained by who knows what.  They will be full of graffiti.   It will be a regular occurrence to have one of these arrive with puke in it on a Saturday night.  people will do all kinds of things they would never do in a taxi or Uber with a driver there.   Anything public is gross.  I don't know about anyone else (maybe I'm just an elitist asshole) is that I wouldn't use an AV ride service even if it was cheaper, quicker, and more convenient.   I get grossed out every time I take a bus, or a subway, or even a plane ride.  I don't want to be around these people, even if it means using the car by myself after they do.   I don't want to sit on the seats or touch the handles/armrests/handholds/etc.    It's the same reason I won't shop at Walmart even if I could save money by doing so.   Even if the AV doesn't get to me smelling like B.O., puke, or piss (as many subway cars always do), I'd be imagining that the last people in it were un-showered, greasy haired, drug attics in their un-washed pajama pants heading to Walmart.   I'll pay more, even a lot more, to drive myself sitting in my clean private car with heated/ventilated leather seats.  I've always said there is only one thing I envy about the ultra-rich.  It isn't their mega-mansions, or their yachts.  It isn't their supercars or anything else.  It's their ability to fly private and avoid, not just the security, but the people at the airport and on the plane.  My wife and I will often take the extra time to drive places when it would have been much easier to fly, or most of the time just avoid traveling altogether simply to avoid air-travel.  Technology isn't really the problem with AVs, like most things, people are.

 

 

RK...you're a frickin' wuss!    Cheers!

[Parsad]

4 hours ago, WayWardCloud said:

Agreed, I would definitely not send my car carrying random people around town either! From a hygiene perspective but more importantly for liability reasons. The good thing about those concerns is it's not an option anyway. Not now and not anytime soon, probably ever. I'm aware Tesla has been promising it for years but that's not where the AV industry is going. True autonomous vehicle companies do not have this business model and we really need to differentiate them from whatever Elon Musk's and Cathie Wood's latest hallucinations are.

 

AVs require remote operators monitoring, regular censor checks and cabin cleaning. You can think of a fleet of AVs as a fleet of Boeings. You can only use them if you also have qualified air controllers, qualified quality control technicians and a team of cleaners babying your planes 24/7 and taking legal responsibility. Feasible as a company but not as an individual. Actually Cruise recently hired Gil West who is an ex Delta exec to be COO.

 

That was the technological and legal aspect. Now for the cleanliness part, it's just like any taxi service. Yes some people will trash it but most won't and the ones who do will be on video and their credit card already on file so it's easy to charge them the cleaning fee and/or ban them from the service. The next generation purpose built AVs (Origin and Zeeker) are also being build with interior ease of cleaning and longevity in mind, unlike Ubers and Lyfts who use normal cars that are definitely not designed with heavy duty in mind for their back seats and still make it work just fine. I don't foresee this being an issue at all.

 

+1!  Cheers!

[rkbabang]

30 minutes ago, Parsad said:

 

RK...you're a frickin' wuss!    Cheers!

 

 

Yeah.  I wasn't always like that, but the older I get the less tolerance I have for other people.  Like why can't you shower?  You live in a 1st world country, I know you have running water at home.   When I was poor, I showered every day and would buy halfway decent clothes at a thrift store.  Never did I go out smelling wearing my pajamas..  Oh, well. I'm a wuss.

 

[Parsad]

39 minutes ago, rkbabang said:

 

 

Yeah.  I wasn't always like that, but the older I get the less tolerance I have for other people.  Like why can't you shower?  You live in a 1st world country, I know you have running water at home.   When I was poor, I showered every day and would buy halfway decent clothes at a thrift store.  Never did I go out smelling wearing my pajamas..  Oh, well. I'm a wuss.

 

 

I'm kind of the opposite.  The more things change, the more I learn to tolerate it.  Except bad drivers!  Fuck bad drivers!   

 

It's why I want to see autonomous vehicles everywhere.  So I don't have to see another moron cut me off because they were late seeing their exit.  Plus they'll get rid of drivers under the influence!  Cheers!

[rkbabang]

12 minutes ago, Parsad said:

 

I'm kind of the opposite.  The more things change, the more I learn to tolerate it.  Except bad drivers!  Fuck bad drivers!   

 

It's why I want to see autonomous vehicles everywhere.  So I don't have to see another moron cut me off because they were late seeing their exit.  Plus they'll get rid of drivers under the influence!  Cheers!

 

 

I agree with you there.  Nothing worse than bad drivers.  A few days ago this guy in front of me on a 1 lane curvy hilly NH road was doing 30mph in a 55 zone.  I was behind him and a whole line of cars behind me.  I was just thinking he was the worst jerk in the world when the Porsche behind me tried to pass both of us as another car came around the corner in the opposite direction.  I had to go completely off the road so the Mr Porsche didn't get it head on (like he deserved).  I really hate people.  Luckily I just ended up in some grass and could pull right back on the road with no damage other than the stress.

[Guest]

On 8/11/2023 at 4:11 AM, Parsad said:

GM and Google have been given approval to run their driver-less ride-sharing/taxi services in San Francisco.  I can see the day when most people won't own cars.  Just fleets of driver-less ride-sharing/taxis running 24/7 picking you up wherever you are and dropping you off wherever you want to go.  No gas, no insurance, no repairs, no driver's license and probably fairly economical rates.  Cheers!

 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/2-robotaxi-services-seeking-bypass-000718403.html

 

It will be cheaper than owning a car too (for those that don't drive until it dies and do repairs themselves at least) - volume discounts, car operating 20+ hours a day instead of 1 or whatever, lower costs for repairs since that will also be on volume, etc. 

 

I agree with you otherwise. 

Edited August 14, 2023 by stahleyp

[Parsad]

22 hours ago, rkbabang said:

 

 

I agree with you there.  Nothing worse than bad drivers.  A few days ago this guy in front of me on a 1 lane curvy hilly NH road was doing 30mph in a 55 zone.  I was behind him and a whole line of cars behind me.  I was just thinking he was the worst jerk in the world when the Porsche behind me tried to pass both of us as another car came around the corner in the opposite direction.  I had to go completely off the road so the Mr Porsche didn't get it head on (like he deserved).  I really hate people.  Luckily I just ended up in some grass and could pull right back on the road with no damage other than the stress.

 

Glad you're ok!  I would have chased after both the Porsche and the other guy...just to give them the finger and get some satisfaction!    Cheers!

[Castanza]

On 8/14/2023 at 5:53 PM, Parsad said:

 

RK...you're a frickin' wuss!    Cheers!

Nah, people in general (at least in the US) have less and less self respect and respect for others. Not to mention all the mental lunatics out there. I’m right there with RK. If you can’t get yourself to take a shower and change out of your smiley face pajamas the. You ain’t riding in my car. 
 

Tell you what! If you can use a credit check, background check or something to limit who rides, I’d consider it.

[cwericb]

On 8/14/2023 at 8:26 PM, rkbabang said:

 

 

I agree with you there.  Nothing worse than bad drivers.  A few days ago this guy in front of me on a 1 lane curvy hilly NH road was doing 30mph in a 55 zone.  I was behind him and a whole line of cars behind me.  I was just thinking he was the worst jerk in the world when the Porsche behind me tried to pass both of us as another car came around the corner in the opposite direction.  I had to go completely off the road so the Mr Porsche didn't get it head on (like he deserved).  I really hate people.  Luckily I just ended up in some grass and could pull right back on the road with no damage other than the stress.

 

Just got back from a long trip mostly on two lane highways.

 

When you see a line up of traffic behind a vehicle on a two lane highway it is usually not the first guy in the line that is causing the problem. It is the SECOND car in the line who is the problem.

 

Because the second car hasn't passed the slow vehicle, the rest of the line must now pass two slow vehicles. And what really burns me is that almost always, the second car in the line is tailgating the slow vehicle in front thus forcing the passing driver now to have to pass two vehicles at the same time. Had this happen two or three times in the past couple of days.  If you don't want to pass the car in front, don't tailgate it, leave room for someone to pass you and then the slow car.

 

Furthermore, anyone driving at 30 in a 55 should be pulled over and ticketed for impeding traffic. Drive with the flow of traffic. If you are passing a lot of vehicles, you are probably driving too fast. If a lot of vehicles are passing you, you are probably driving too slow.

 

This is coming from a senior citizen who has been driving since the age of ten, and I admit that I habitually drive fast.

 

However I have driven in over half the Canadian provinces, probably three quarters of the US states, including extensively in 3 of the Hawaiian islands and also several countries in Europe. Most of my driving has been on two lane highways and a good deal of that has been in winter and at times in blizzard conditions.

 

Tickets: very, very few. Accidents: Zero.

 

 

 

[rkbabang]

37 minutes ago, cwericb said:

 

Just got back from a long trip mostly on two lane highways.

 

When you see a line up of traffic behind a vehicle on a two lane highway it is usually not the first guy in the line that is causing the problem. It is the SECOND car in the line who is the problem.

 

Because the second car hasn't passed the slow vehicle, the rest of the line must now pass two slow vehicles. And what really burns me is that almost always, the second car in the line is tailgating the slow vehicle in front thus forcing the passing driver now to have to pass two vehicles at the same time. Had this happen two or three times in the past couple of days.  If you don't want to pass the car in front, don't tailgate it, leave room for someone to pass you and then the slow car.

 

Furthermore, anyone driving at 30 in a 55 should be pulled over and ticketed for impeding traffic. Drive with the flow of traffic. If you are passing a lot of vehicles, you are probably driving too fast. If a lot of vehicles are passing you, you are probably driving too slow.

 

This is coming from a senior citizen who has been driving since the age of ten, and I admit that I habitually drive fast.

 

However I have driven in over half the Canadian provinces, probably three quarters of the US states, including extensively in 3 of the Hawaiian islands and also several countries in Europe. Most of my driving has been on two lane highways and a good deal of that has been in winter and at times in blizzard conditions.

 

Tickets: very, very few. Accidents: Zero.

 

 

 

Usually I would agree, but on the road we were on it was very curvy and a double yellow line.  There was no safe way to pass anyone.

 

[cwericb]

GM's Cruise autonomous vehicle unit agrees to cut fleet in half after 2 crashes in San Francisco

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/gm-s-cruise-autonomous-vehicle-unit-agrees-to-cut-fleet-in-half-after-2-crashes-in-san-francisco-1.6526129

[WayWardCloud]

This highlights the double standard autonomous companies are going to face as they attempt deployment. In both those crashes the Cruise was T-boned from the side by a human-driven vehicle that did not stop at the intersection, yet the DMV punishes them and the media prints misleading titles. The sad part is that ~45.000 Americans die in car accidents every year and many more get severely injured. We just got used to this death toll while any little AV misstep gets reported. For example: https://www.businessinsider.com/driverless-cruise-car-stuck-wet-concrete-san-francisco-av-robotaxi-2023-8

 

I actually agree Cruise was pushing the number of rides/day a bit too fast because their product is not as refined as Waymo's yet, not in life-threatening ways by any means but still lots of small quirks that need ironing before deployment so as not to lose early public approval.

 

I believe the restriction in the number of cars only affects SF but they have 2 other locations operating at small scale and 7 more announced so it should not slow them down too much.

 

Glad Waymo isn't being bundled with this mess and hopefully it acts as a good wake up call from the DMV so Cruise gets better at managing edge cases scenarios, especially those when emergency vehicles involved.

Edited August 20, 2023 by WayWardCloud