a plea for help from Ericopoly

[LongHaul]

Very sorry to hear about the divorce.  Super tough and stressful.  I have learned a bit about this as my wife's cousin is a divorce attorney.  My 2 cents.  Just delete if not helpful.

 

Investing

Should be easily less than 10 hours per week if super focused portfolio and do minimal research.

 

I am sure you know this but lawyers have massive incentives to string cases along and increase their fees. 

I just read that one of the key reasons for increased time for a company in bankruptcy was the numbers of lawyers involved (iirc), greater than complexity of the case, financial advisors or any other factors.  My wife's cousin had a law firm and charged ~$600 total,  no contest law fee and got the job done. 

Now the firm he works at charges as much as they can and probably do about the same job with much more stress and time and money for the parents.  The head lawyer and the other lawyers just string it along for more money.  Pretty sick if you ask me.

 

I would just sit down with your wife (without the leech lawyers) and work something rational out.  Joint custody would probably be best for the kids if both parents are good.  You sound like a great Dad so that would help them. 

 

And as far at the money as someone else mentioned - your future stock picks would be worth a lot to her. 

 

As Ben Franklin said/wrote:  "If you would persuade, you must appeal to interest rather than intellect"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DocSnowball]

Very sorry to hear about your divorce. Hoping and praying for things to work out for you and your family

[CorpRaider]

Sorry to hear that. Didn't Munger and Buffett have to offer some sworn testimony on the amount of time required to invest (maybe in their matter with the SEC)?

 

I think Munger was quoted in some press accounts too about an SEC inquiry or some other proceeding concerning the Daily Journal Corporation (centered on his superb investments in banks during the financial crisis, which mirrors your own investments if I recall and could probably be substantiated via your brokerage statements) where the activity level of his investment operation was an issue. 

 

Perhaps you could flag those ideas for your attorney to see if she thinks they would be helpful to track down.

[muscleman]

Sorry to hear this. I am really surprised. I always thought a retired man with more  time to spent with family would make the family better.

Anyway, can you tell us what your goal is out of this divorce? Do you want to be primary custody of all your children? Do you want to provide spousal support or no spousal support?

 

I do remember that you don't do much research and do not post often here.

[Liberty]

The fact that this thread even exists is counterproductive (although some advice is worthwhile). It’s like getting help from your nerdy friends to prove that you are not nerdy.

 

I would delete this thread and concentrating on proving they you contributed to raising your kids, that’s it.  The fact that you did investments on the side doesn’t matter. Other folks have to go to work 8-10 hours a day and still don’t lose custody of their kids in the case of divorce - there is a high hurdle for this nowadays.

 

You're misunderstanding what he's saying. The way I understand it, his wife his claiming that he told her he'd retire and take care of the kids, but in fact didn't and couldn't have because he made lots of money investing. He's saying that he made lots of money, but that it didn't take much time because he didn't do it by working full time at it (doing lots of trades, following lots of companies, generating lots of original ideas through research, etc) and had plenty of time to take care of the kids.

 

So showing to a court that he was actually retired and taking care of the kids back then and that investing was a hobby, rather than working full time and neglecting to do what he said he'd do, would indeed help.

[frommi]

I am sorry to hear your story and hope you come back refreshed after this has been settled.

 

Can`t you just show your brokerage statements to document your inactivity? I can imagine that these documents are much better at convincing a judge than some online forum posts. And when they show just a handful of stocks i can`t imagine that someone believes that it is a fulltime job to research these.

[Viking]

Hi Ericopoly!

 

I will start by saying that I miss your time here! You have been mostly away for what? 4 or 5 years!!!

 

In terms of you being a full time investor, trader, etc. This is totally false per everything that I have read over the years.

 

I recall that you made 4 large investments: Fairfax, Odyssey Re, Bank of America and MBIA over a period stretching since 2006. How could that be considered using all of your time?

 

I also recall that your wife was very pleased with some of the gains that you made for her with MBIA. That post should be retrievable. More importantly, that money is real and should have appeared in her account. Did she complain then?

 

I recall that you left your employment at Microsoft after putting a good portion of your savings into Fairfax calls in 2006 and obtaining an extraordinary return. Almost like a lottery win.

 

And yes, you mentioned multiple times that you used others research to make your investments, you "retired" again by having others manage a significant portion of your funds many years ago and yes you mentioned that you wanted to enjoy life, spend time with your family, get your knee (or knees fixed) since 2006.

 

Like others said, and I would add, trading records, credit card records, memberships, affidavits/witnesses of where you were, what you did with your kids, could go a long way in proving what you were up to.

 

And please, please hire yourself a top lawyer!

 

In any case, PM me if you need my help.

 

Cardboard

 

Ericopoly, I have been on this board since 2003. I copied Cardboards quote because it captures my thoughts exactly. From reading your posts over many years I never had the impression that you were a professional investor.

 

I hope you are successful as you work your way through your current challenges :-)

[GregS]

Have you discussed your approach here with your attorney?  Do you have an attorney?

[writser]

Have you discussed your approach here with your attorney?  Do you have an attorney?

 

Only sensible advice in thread.

[Parsad]

Actually, I think most professional money managers on here will agree, and I'm happy to put in writing if you need me to Eric...75% of the time is spent on client-related, administrative duties, accounting, legal, audit, letters, etc.  The 25% of time spent on the portfolio is time that is highly flexible...you can do it anytime, including when the wife and kids are asleep, at school or occupied.  For me, 90% of it is done when everyone is asleep.

 

And in your case, you were not a professional.  You were a private investor, occupying time socializing when on the message board, and then making large, very extreme bets on a handful of occasions.  It's as far-removed from a professional investor as you could get.  Cheers! 

[hillfronter83]

Actually, I think most professional money managers on here will agree, and I'm happy to put in writing if you need me to Eric...75% of the time is spent on client-related, administrative duties, accounting, legal, audit, letters, etc.  The 25% of time spent on the portfolio is time that is highly flexible...you can do it anytime, including when the wife and kids are asleep, at school or occupied.  For me, 90% of it is done when everyone is asleep.

 

And in your case, you were not a professional.  You were a private investor, occupying time socializing when on the message board, and then making large, very extreme bets on a handful of occasions.  It's as far-removed from a professional investor as you could get.  Cheers!

 

With all due respect, I think arguing Ericopoly is not a professional is missing the point. Wife is not alleging him as a professional investor that manages money for clients. Rather, she is saying Ericopoly is doing this FULL TIME, like a job. Thus she is entitled to spousal support similar to arrangements made when husband holding a normal job.

 

Clearly Ericopoly is providing financial support by investing. However, I think if she wants to argue managing their own money is a "full time job", then she can't divide their assets. The moment she take away half of assets, he will lose his "full time job". She just can not have it both ways!

[LongTermView]

The moment she take away half of assets, he will lose his "full time job". She just can not have it both ways!

 

This is using logic and in a perfect world that would be fine. In this world I'm worried about the possibilities if she has a good lawyer and Eric has a bad one.

[sarganaga]

FWIW I've been through this a couple of times.

 

If there is any way possible, Eric should try to work out something with his wife. Find out what she wants most & give it to her if  you can get some of what you want. Be willing to give more than you  take. The way the divorce system works works, the man will be disadvantaged anyway. Don't fight about custody; be concerned about visitation. 

 

Even if a separation starts off amicably, the process mostly leads to open warfare. It's obviously in the best interest of the attorneys for it to be this way.

 

This going to be very expensive in terms of legal fees and the aftermath. The wife is trying to establish Eric as a professional investor and use his income from such  during the bull market as a baseline for spousal support. If successful, this will be a disaster.

 

The absolutely most important thing for Eric is to get a top notch local attorney who specializes in family law, ideally one whose primary practice is representing male clients. He should be familiar with the local judges and know their biases. He should be a tiger.

 

Until you go through one of these things, you have no idea of how much power domestic court judges have. When my #2 ex-wife decided to court to get more money out of me, the judge hearing the decree modification request interrupted my attorney (on the record) saying that he didn't care what our agreement said or what the previous court had ruled, he was going to decide whatever he wanted to.... and he did. My attorney was not very good.

 

There is a lot of money involved here, judges don't have to be logical, and there is a big difference in attorneys. From what I've read here, I don't have much confidence in Eric'S current attorney.

 

Best of luck to Eric during this difficult process. There is no sugar coating on this.

[LC]

Agree with sarg.

 

And to anyone reading this: don't get married.

[sarganaga]

Actually, I think most professional money managers on here will agree, and I'm happy to put in writing if you need me to Eric...75% of the time is spent on client-related, administrative duties, accounting, legal, audit, letters, etc.  The 25% of time spent on the portfolio is time that is highly flexible...you can do it anytime, including when the wife and kids are asleep, at school or occupied.  For me, 90% of it is done when everyone is asleep.

 

And in your case, you were not a professional.  You were a private investor, occupying time socializing when on the message board, and then making large, very extreme bets on a handful of occasions.  It's as far-removed from a professional investor as you could get.  Cheers!

 

I agree with this, but it may not matter. I think Eric's wife and her attorney want to convince the court that Eric's income during the bull market should be used as a baseline for spousal support. It doesn't matter what he wants to call it or that it would be almost impossible to duplicate. Their position is that this is what should be considered. They want the money.

[cwericb]

Eric, get the best lawyer you can afford. As Sarg said "The absolutely most important thing for Eric is to get a top notch local attorney who specializes in family law, ideally one whose primary practice is representing male clients. He should be familiar with the local judges and know their biases."

 

However you might replace the "he" in the above statement with "she" if applicable.

 

Now I take a little issue with the other part of Sarg's statement... "He should be a tiger." Not necessarily so. I have seen two lawyers get into a pissing contest and make personally 'winning' all important and didn't give a damn about how much it was costing their client in legal fees. At some point compromises must be made. It still burns me that after all was more or less settled I had to write my X a large check just to get the process finished. It was a good investment.

 

It can be a very, very stressful process and very depressing time. Just remember the old saying" Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday" Things will eventually get better and you will recover and move on. Hope this helps.

[siddharth18]

FWIW I've been through this a couple of times.

 

If there is any way possible, Eric should try to work out something with his wife. Find out what she wants most & give it to her if  you can get some of what you want. Be willing to give more than you  take. The way the divorce system works works, the man will be disadvantaged anyway. Don't fight about custody; be concerned about visitation. 

 

Even if a separation starts off amicably, the process mostly leads to open warfare. It's obviously in the best interest of the attorneys for it to be this way.

 

This going to be very expensive in terms of legal fees and the aftermath. The wife is trying to establish Eric as a professional investor and use his income from such  during the bull market as a baseline for spousal support. If successful, this will be a disaster.

 

The absolutely most important thing for Eric is to get a top notch local attorney who specializes in family law, ideally one whose primary practice is representing male clients. He should be familiar with the local judges and know their biases. He should be a tiger.

 

Until you go through one of these things, you have no idea of how much power domestic court judges have. When my #2 ex-wife decided to court to get more money out of me, the judge hearing the decree modification request interrupted my attorney (on the record) saying that he didn't care what our agreement said or what the previous court had ruled, he was going to decide whatever he wanted to.... and he did. My attorney was not very good.

 

There is a lot of money involved here, judges don't have to be logical, and there is a big difference in attorneys. From what I've read here, I don't have much confidence in Eric'S current attorney.

 

Best of luck to Eric during this difficult process. There is no sugar coating on this.

 

Agree with all of this. Realize that you're fighting an uphill battle; so the wisest way to "win" is to avoid turning it into a war. If this does turn into a war, then finding the best attorney has got to become a full time job because your fortune (literally) depends on it.

 

I don't have experience with family law specifically but a while ago when I needed an attorney in a different specialty - the wisest advice I got was to find an attorney that is "familiar with the local judges and knows their biases."

 

Your goal should be to find an attorney who has a solid history and reputation (with the local judges) as someone who's sharp, knowledgeable and won't hesitate to appeal an unfair decision. Basically - the judge needs to know your attorney's aggressiveness and his past actions in order for him to resist making a biased or unfair decision. This is because judges don't like their verdicts being overturned on appeal, so they are likely to be less biased in their ruling if they see a familiar attorney who has a history of appealing egregious verdicts/rulings.

 

And to anyone reading this: don't get married.

 

+1

[sarganaga]

Eric, get the best lawyer you can afford. As Sarg said "The absolutely most important thing for Eric is to get a top notch local attorney who specializes in family law, ideally one whose primary practice is representing male clients. He should be familiar with the local judges and know their biases."

 

However you might replace the "he" in the above statement with "she" if applicable.

 

Now I take a little issue with the other part of Sarg's statement... "He should be a tiger." Not necessarily so. I have seen two lawyers get into a pissing contest and make personally 'winning' all important and didn't give a damn about how much it was costing their client in legal fees. At some point compromises must be made. It still burns me that after all was more or less settled I had to write my X a large check just to get the process finished. It was a good investment.

 

It can be a very, very stressful process and very depressing time. Just remember the old saying" Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday" Things will eventually get better and you will recover and move on. Hope this helps.

 

I agree on the pissing contest aspect, but I think passive lawyers can stretch the process out just as much. I also agree that a female attorney could be very effective if she mostly represented males. I do think the gender asymmetry in family law would favor having an attorney that was mostly experienced in advocating for your particular side, regardless of their individual sex.

 

As to the tiger, I want an attorney that will vigorously represent my interests. This means looking for and exploiting weaknesses in the opposition, giving them something to lose especially if they thought there wasn't much at risk for them. I previously wrote that I would offer a lot if negotiating with the wife to avoid court & lawyers as much as possible. I would want my advocate to take a much harder approach if direct negotiation with the wife were unsuccessful.

 

 

[Dazel]

 

Ericolopoly,

 

You can't win either way....sorry...and sorry about what’s going on. However....

So put an outrageously large one time payment together and close all open arguments. Forget math, stocks, emotions about the amount of money. Your kids are more important. While you are a retired dude and have been the entire time......man you are crazy smart...you will figure out a way to make the money back in the future sorry you will have to go back to work.

I have done this with friends (which I consider you) before and I am not a lawyer.

 

All the best,

 

Dazel

[siddharth18]

 

Ericolopoly,

 

You can't win either way....sorry...and sorry about what’s going on. However....

So put an outrageously large one time payment together and close all open arguments. Forget math, stocks, emotions about the amount of money. Your kids are more important. While you are a retired dude and have been the entire time......man you are crazy smart...you will figure out a way to make the money back in the future sorry you will have to go back to work.

I have done this with friends (which I consider you) before and I am not a lawyer.

 

All the best,

 

Dazel

 

So according to you, he should simply "put an outrageously large one time payment together" (that likely represents a lifetime of saving+patience+discipline+foresight+risk taking+luck, that may or may not be repeated in the future) without thinking it through...just because...he's crazy smart and figure out to make money back in the future? And also because "kids are more important" ?

[StubbleJumper]

 

Ericolopoly,

 

You can't win either way....sorry...and sorry about what’s going on. However....

So put an outrageously large one time payment together and close all open arguments. Forget math, stocks, emotions about the amount of money. Your kids are more important. While you are a retired dude and have been the entire time......man you are crazy smart...you will figure out a way to make the money back in the future sorry you will have to go back to work.

I have done this with friends (which I consider you) before and I am not a lawyer.

 

All the best,

 

Dazel

 

So according to you, he should simply "put an outrageously large one time payment together" (that likely represents a lifetime of saving+patience+discipline+foresight+risk taking+luck, that may or may not be repeated in the future) without thinking it through...just because...he's crazy smart and figure out to make money back in the future? And also because "kids are more important" ?

 

 

Okay, I should just mind my goddamned business, but...  The short answer to your question, is yes.  My rough memory is that Eric had $15-ish mil a few years back, which should still be mostly intact.  So, what does a divorced guy truly need?  If he can get by on 33% of the family wealth and still has the talent to grow it, then maybe Dazel's viewpoint is not Bat-shit crazy.  If offering her $10-ish mil makes the child custody thing go away, why would a guy not keep $5-ish mil and joint custody of the kids?  When you get right down to it, what else do you have other than family?  I'd say that Dazel has a legit viewpoint, even if the lawyers would shit a brick by even thinking about it.

 

The other bat-shit extreme approach would be to threaten the wife that Eric could go for full custody and then move the kids back to Australia.  It's the old Clint Eastwood question for the wife.  "You've got to ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do ya, punk?"

 

Wishing all the best to Eric in a shitty situation.

 

SJ

[Gregmal]

 

Ericolopoly,

 

You can't win either way....sorry...and sorry about what’s going on. However....

So put an outrageously large one time payment together and close all open arguments. Forget math, stocks, emotions about the amount of money. Your kids are more important. While you are a retired dude and have been the entire time......man you are crazy smart...you will figure out a way to make the money back in the future sorry you will have to go back to work.

I have done this with friends (which I consider you) before and I am not a lawyer.

 

All the best,

 

Dazel

 

So according to you, he should simply "put an outrageously large one time payment together" (that likely represents a lifetime of saving+patience+discipline+foresight+risk taking+luck, that may or may not be repeated in the future) without thinking it through...just because...he's crazy smart and figure out to make money back in the future? And also because "kids are more important" ?

 

Except the law is pretty straight forward in most cases and generally ignores the dollar figures; instead focusing on percentages. For instances a wealthy young man can find a hot piece that dropped out of college and stripped/waited tables prior to their getting together. He goes on to make millions. She still likely gets half assuming no prenuptial agreement despite the fact that she'd never come close to earning more than $25 a hour... Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and hope for the best.

 

Also, not that I'm advising it, but if you have private/illiquid/hard to value investments, I'm sure an intelligent accountant/capable lawyer can find a way to "mark these to market" in a way that most normal people, let alone a housewife, won't be able to really contest. Then just divy up the easy to value stuff fairly and don't liquidate the private stuff in a conspicuous way.

[LC]

Also...the best defense is a good offense.

[sarganaga]

In most divorce cases, especially if there are children involved, you start off with the wife getting half. Then they figure out how much more the guy has to pay. Not a judgment, just how it is.  maybe/probably even a good thing. Spousal support, child support, maybe they can find a few more things.

 

If Eric could pay 60% and be done, he should probably do it, but he can't. I really think they are angling really large spousal support in addition to child support, which, BTW, is no longer deductible under under the new tax law.l

 

If Eric's wife was still working while he was retired, I would hope his "tiger lawyer" would do something like ask for sole custody of the children and spousal support and child support  from her. She was the main breadwinner. Their investments just happened to do well while he was retired. If this were done, the risk in the litigation game would be more evenly spread.

 

 

 

 

[ERICOPOLY]

She forced me into a vocational evaluation and I rresponded in kind.

 

She has already had hers and has looked beyond upset lately.

 

Yesterday I had mine.  It has been 10+ years of retirement so my skills are considered 100% obsolete.

 

I have a math degree with a specialization in business and there are primarily government jobs where I now live.

 

She said it looks like 5 years of studying for a PhD in economics and then an entry level job making $50k-$70k.

 

She told me that my wife can work right away as she was previously a realtor.

 

Hah! Hah! Hah!

 

It is always darkest before the dawn.