If American - which presidential candidate will you vote for? (Nov Edition) If

[cwericb]

"I am making a concerted effort to go 4 years without hearing Trump's voice. "

 

Yeah, well good luck with that!  :)

 

Should we now start a new thread:  Donald 'The Wall' Trump's campaign promises.

 

Hillery is no longer going to jail.

The great, great wall is being downgraded to a fence.

Obamacare is not being repealed but tweeked.

And how's that process of "Draining the Swamp" coming along?

So what happens when the redneck portion of his supporters finally clue in that they have been duped?

 

Now to look on the bright side of things I have to admit I would prefer watching Melania and Ivanka rather than Hillary for the next 4 years.

[valcont]

So what happens when the redneck portion of his supporters finally clue in that they have been duped?

 

 

Don't worry about that. Not going to happen. Ever!!

[RobBob]

I voted third party but its clear that the Democrats/liberals'/SJWs' response to the election of DT is indicative as to why he won.  If you keep this "everybody I disagree with is a deplorable" up for long, TD will be a two-termer for sure.

[Cardboard]

"But what really concerns me is that I can't help wondering how you turn over most of the western world's top secrets to people like Trump, Bannon, Giuliani and all of the rest of Trumps crew. How do you do that and ensure these guys will not use the info for their own personal and political uses?"

 

Don`t you realize that the Clinton`s became centi-millionaires doing exactly that? It is not like they could do it. They have done it!

 

Cardboard

[cwericb]

So you're okay with continuing and expanding the practice?

[TwoCitiesCapital]

So you're okay with continuing and expanding the practice?

 

We weren't really given a choice...

 

Your options were to vote for the career criminal who has enriched herself by selling political influence for favors/money

OR vote for the bigot who had few clear policy stances and appears to lack the temperament for the position

OR waste your vote on a third party candidate who is probably unqualified, but embodies the ideals you would like seen put in place.

 

I voted 3rd party, but am not blind to the extremely low likelihood one would ever get elected. Was simply hoping for 5-10% of the popular vote to help influence future policy and encourage people to run in local races.

 

Unfortunately, most of America thinks it's a waste of their time to try to support them since they aren't championed by either major party ( at least not collectively - each side champions some of the ideals of each 3rd party candidate). Since we appear to be ok with blatant career criminals and racist fear mongers as our presidential candidates, we will probably see more of them attempting to run for positions of political power.

[Cardboard]

"So you're okay with continuing and expanding the practice?"

 

When you become reasonable enough to understand that someone who did commit something vs someone who could commit something is different, then maybe we can discuss.

 

Cardboard

[rkbabang]

An interesting take on it.  http://rare.us/story/how-president-trump-will-make-politics-better-for-gay-americans/

 

"Trump is the first president in US history to enter office supporting gay marriage... Obama didn’t embrace same sex marriage until 2012, reversing his earlier opposition. “I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I am not in favor of gay marriage,” Obama said in 2008. Hillary Clinton didn’t embrace same sex marriage until 2013, reversing her previous opposition."

 

[valcont]

Theres too many choice quotes in Marks memo. Im a big fan of him because he's brutally honest.

 

Some really good ones. Here are my favorite:

 

"The phoney [sic] electoral college made a laughing stock out of our nation. The loser one!"

 

"He lost the popular vote by a lot and won the election. We should have a revolution in this country!"

 

--  DJT in 2012

 

 

 

[cwericb]

“When you become reasonable enough to understand that someone who did commit something vs someone who could commit something is different, then maybe we can discuss.”

I have yet to see any proof as to what the Clintons did that was illegal. Specifically, to what are you referring? As far as getting an introduction to a politician in exchange for a charitable donation, that is certainly nothing new and is the way many charities work. The Clinton foundation has used that money to give hundreds of millions in aid world wide.

 

On the other hand, is it true that the Trump Foundation donated $25,000 to the re-election campaign of the Florida Attorney General? Is that a charity? Could it possibly be connected or is it just coincidence that this same Attorney General then dropped the criminal investigation into Trump University?

 

And then of course, there is the whole issue of Trump U.

 

 

[rb]

https://www.ft.com/content/ef21b3c0-a80d-11e6-8898-79a99e2a4de6

 

"In Michigan and Wisconsin, the two states that arguably swung the election, Mrs Clinton received roughly 300,000 fewer votes than Mr Obama did, suggesting that the president’s supporters either stayed at home or cast their votes for Mr Trump or a third-party candidate."

 

 

Go figure! Howard Marks

https://www.oaktreecapital.com/docs/default-source/memos/go-figure.pdf

 

Theres too many choice quotes in Marks memo. Im a big fan of him because he's brutally honest.

I read the memo. I don't think that it was brutal. I think it was honest and pragmatic. Now reality may be brutal, but that's another thing.

 

His conclusions are to the point as well. Big changes are afoot in democratic party. It will be vastly different in the future and a lot more progressive.

 

What's really amazing to me is that the transformation on the left is happening in an almost identical manner as it did on the right just with an 8 year lag.

[Jurgis]

What's really amazing to me is that the transformation on the left is happening in an almost identical manner as it did on the right just with an 8 year lag.

 

I'm gonna misuse a quote (since apparently it was intended the opposite way), but I'm concerned that "The only things in the middle of the road are yellow stripes and dead armadillos." (Jim Hightower. I haven't read the book).

 

I'm the same way unhappy about leftization of the left as I'm unhappy about the rightization of the right. Both lead to policies that are populist and mostly broken.

 

(Yeah, I'm mostly there with dead armadillos.)

[rb]

Lol, yea. That's what the dems and H got wrong. They thought that there was this big center. Turns out they were wrong. It's basically you, me, and Ken Bone. Oh, and the armadillos.

[wachtwoord]

Yup, politics is extremely polarized right now.

[valcont]

I think Trump's victory has given the left especially the Bernie-Warren wing a golden opportunity to destroy the conservative ideology for good. Conservatives who prides themselves in the small government, personal responsibility and free trade must be very nervous with their populist leader who has no ideological leanings and an inflated ego. Trump would not put up with an ideology that has no role for him and he ran on a populist agenda.The left wing should actively coopt with Trump to implement it rather than blocking him like the republicans did in '08. Give him the cover to walk out of the trade deals. That would also help weakening the Clinton-Schumer wing who are sold out and are corrupt. Trump would soon find out that the best he can do is to stop the bleeding and not get back the jobs. The tax breaks for the rich and fiscal reforms would take time to work out, the time that Trump doesn't have and wouldn't wait for. He would need an instant fix and will look to the big ole Govt for solutions. The Dems should help him set up all the entitlements like free education, healthcare,housing support, unemployment. Let him package it whatever the way he wants to but get the populace used to the idea of Trump(and by extension the Govt.) helping them. Off course the Republicans would balk at such measures but they have no choice and the Dems should use the division to drive the wedge. Let him kill Obamacare but nudge him towards something that has his name on it. Use him to fight the big pharma to drive down the costs. Get him to fund an infrastructure plan to provide jobs.

 

Off course the Dems wouldn't like his agenda on social issues and climate change. They should oppose it but not let it get in the way of him enacting a populist agenda. Let him kill the conservative ideology and the demographics will take care of the rest.

 

Oh oh looks like my strategy is taking shape here word by word (notice the coopt)

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/17/us/politics/democrats-house-senate.html?_r=0

 

" Senate Democrats’ Surprising Strategy: Trying to Align With Trump

Congressional Democrats, divided and struggling for a path from the electoral wilderness, are constructing an agenda to align with many proposals of President-elect Donald J. Trump that put him at odds with his own party.

Mr. Trump campaigned on some issues that Democrats have long championed and Republicans resisted: spending more on roads, bridges and rail, punishing American companies that move jobs overseas, ending a lucrative tax break for hedge fund and private equity titans, and making paid maternity leave mandatory.Some Democrats are even co-opting Mr. Trump’s language from the campaign. Every single person in our caucus agrees the system is rigged, said Senator Debbie Stabenow, Democrat of Michigan.

Still, there will be areas of bright-line disagreement. Democrats are speaking out against Mr. Trump’s appointment of Stephen K. Bannon as his chief strategist, and will oppose his promised tax cuts for the wealthy and his vow to deport millions of illegal immigrants."

 

If Dems can execute this perfectly ,we would have a single payer aka socialized medicine, free college,complete rejection of conservative ideology and the government bigger than the size of Trump's ego . And 2020 election will be fought on who is more populist than the other.

[TwoCitiesCapital]

I think Trump's victory has given the left especially the Bernie-Warren wing a golden opportunity to destroy the conservative ideology for good. Conservatives who prides themselves in the small government, personal responsibility and free trade must be very nervous with their populist leader who has no ideological leanings and an inflated ego. Trump would not put up with an ideology that has no role for him and he ran on a populist agenda.The left wing should actively coopt with Trump to implement it rather than blocking him like the republicans did in '08. Give him the cover to walk out of the trade deals. That would also help weakening the Clinton-Schumer wing who are sold out and are corrupt. Trump would soon find out that the best he can do is to stop the bleeding and not get back the jobs. The tax breaks for the rich and fiscal reforms would take time to work out, the time that Trump doesn't have and wouldn't wait for. He would need an instant fix and will look to the big ole Govt for solutions. The Dems should help him set up all the entitlements like free education, healthcare,housing support, unemployment. Let him package it whatever the way he wants to but get the populace used to the idea of Trump(and by extension the Govt.) helping them. Off course the Republicans would balk at such measures but they have no choice and the Dems should use the division to drive the wedge. Let him kill Obamacare but nudge him towards something that has his name on it. Use him to fight the big pharma to drive down the costs. Get him to fund an infrastructure plan to provide jobs.

 

Off course the Dems wouldn't like his agenda on social issues and climate change. They should oppose it but not let it get in the way of him enacting a populist agenda. Let him kill the conservative ideology and the demographics will take care of the rest.

 

Oh oh looks like my strategy is taking shape here word by word (notice the coopt)

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/17/us/politics/democrats-house-senate.html?_r=0

 

" Senate Democrats’ Surprising Strategy: Trying to Align With Trump

Congressional Democrats, divided and struggling for a path from the electoral wilderness, are constructing an agenda to align with many proposals of President-elect Donald J. Trump that put him at odds with his own party.

Mr. Trump campaigned on some issues that Democrats have long championed and Republicans resisted: spending more on roads, bridges and rail, punishing American companies that move jobs overseas, ending a lucrative tax break for hedge fund and private equity titans, and making paid maternity leave mandatory.Some Democrats are even co-opting Mr. Trump’s language from the campaign. Every single person in our caucus agrees the system is rigged, said Senator Debbie Stabenow, Democrat of Michigan.

Still, there will be areas of bright-line disagreement. Democrats are speaking out against Mr. Trump’s appointment of Stephen K. Bannon as his chief strategist, and will oppose his promised tax cuts for the wealthy and his vow to deport millions of illegal immigrants."

 

If Dems can execute this perfectly ,we would have a single payer aka socialized medicine, free college,complete rejection of conservative ideology and the government bigger than the size of Trump's ego . And 2020 election will be fought on who is more populist than the other.

 

Sounds like a recipe for failure though....

 

[DonFanucci]

I think Trump's victory has given the left especially the Bernie-Warren wing a golden opportunity to destroy the conservative ideology for good. Conservatives who prides themselves in the small government, personal responsibility and free trade must be very nervous with their populist leader who has no ideological leanings and an inflated ego. Trump would not put up with an ideology that has no role for him and he ran on a populist agenda.The left wing should actively coopt with Trump to implement it rather than blocking him like the republicans did in '08. Give him the cover to walk out of the trade deals. That would also help weakening the Clinton-Schumer wing who are sold out and are corrupt. Trump would soon find out that the best he can do is to stop the bleeding and not get back the jobs. The tax breaks for the rich and fiscal reforms would take time to work out, the time that Trump doesn't have and wouldn't wait for. He would need an instant fix and will look to the big ole Govt for solutions. The Dems should help him set up all the entitlements like free education, healthcare,housing support, unemployment. Let him package it whatever the way he wants to but get the populace used to the idea of Trump(and by extension the Govt.) helping them. Off course the Republicans would balk at such measures but they have no choice and the Dems should use the division to drive the wedge. Let him kill Obamacare but nudge him towards something that has his name on it. Use him to fight the big pharma to drive down the costs. Get him to fund an infrastructure plan to provide jobs.

 

Off course the Dems wouldn't like his agenda on social issues and climate change. They should oppose it but not let it get in the way of him enacting a populist agenda. Let him kill the conservative ideology and the demographics will take care of the rest.

 

Oh oh looks like my strategy is taking shape here word by word (notice the coopt)

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/17/us/politics/democrats-house-senate.html?_r=0

 

" Senate Democrats’ Surprising Strategy: Trying to Align With Trump

Congressional Democrats, divided and struggling for a path from the electoral wilderness, are constructing an agenda to align with many proposals of President-elect Donald J. Trump that put him at odds with his own party.

Mr. Trump campaigned on some issues that Democrats have long championed and Republicans resisted: spending more on roads, bridges and rail, punishing American companies that move jobs overseas, ending a lucrative tax break for hedge fund and private equity titans, and making paid maternity leave mandatory.Some Democrats are even co-opting Mr. Trump’s language from the campaign. Every single person in our caucus agrees the system is rigged, said Senator Debbie Stabenow, Democrat of Michigan.

Still, there will be areas of bright-line disagreement. Democrats are speaking out against Mr. Trump’s appointment of Stephen K. Bannon as his chief strategist, and will oppose his promised tax cuts for the wealthy and his vow to deport millions of illegal immigrants."

 

If Dems can execute this perfectly ,we would have a single payer aka socialized medicine, free college,complete rejection of conservative ideology and the government bigger than the size of Trump's ego . And 2020 election will be fought on who is more populist than the other.

 

Then we can finish off the enlightenment values this country stood for permanently. We can squeeze out individual freedom with a socialist left and a fascist right. Then we will be only a few steps from dictatorship and western civilization on a clear path to a return of the dark ages. Happy days ahead.

[rb]

Then we can finish off the enlightenment values this country stood for permanently. We can squeeze out individual freedom with a socialist left and a fascist right. Then we will be only a few steps from dictatorship and western civilization on a clear path to a return of the dark ages. Happy days ahead.

LOL thanks that gave me a chuckle. Individual freedoms.... all you guys care about is not paying taxes.

[DonFanucci]

Then we can finish off the enlightenment values this country stood for permanently. We can squeeze out individual freedom with a socialist left and a fascist right. Then we will be only a few steps from dictatorship and western civilization on a clear path to a return of the dark ages. Happy days ahead.

LOL thanks that gave me a chuckle. Individual freedoms.... all you guys care about is not paying taxes.

 

Glad someone finds a silver lining in the trajectory of the west. A right to choose ones education, ones healthcare, ones retirement, who to hire, what business to start, how to run ones business, how to spend ones money, what to think and say, and who to trade with are not individual freedoms? I guess all I care about it my tax rate.

[rb]

What's preventing you right now from doing any of that?

[DonFanucci]

What's preventing you right now from doing any of that?

 

I was referring to the proposals of Trump and Clinton, but of course some are true right now: A government monopoly in education, an utterly distorted health care market with forced redistribution, forced retirement planning, a fascist regulatory state, obscene tax rates with my money spent on things I oppose, a proposed revision of the first amendment, and proposed tariffs cover just the freedoms I listed.

 

Edit: Looks like I forgot immigration policies that prevent me from hiring foreigners.

[rb]

What's preventing you right now from doing any of that?

 

I was referring to the proposals of Trump and Clinton, but of course some are true right now: A government monopoly in education, an utterly distorted health care market with forced redistribution, forced retirement planning, a fascist regulatory state, obscene tax rates with my money spent on things I oppose, a proposed revision of the first amendment, and proposed tariffs cover just the freedoms I listed.

That's the thing right? All those freedoms are pretty much available in all countries no matter they left or right lean with a few exceptions like Cuba or whatever. So the freedoms are there. You're just complaining about the price.

[valcont]

Then we can finish off the enlightenment values this country stood for permanently. We can squeeze out individual freedom with a socialist left and a fascist right. Then we will be only a few steps from dictatorship and western civilization on a clear path to a return of the dark ages. Happy days ahead.

I think the only way for the right to act rationally is to not act at all. I thought 2008 taught them that but nope, we are back to square one. I would rather have a wannabe socialist than an irrational tyrant. This whole conservative ideology is repulsive at this point since it lacks any moral foundation and must go. How else can you explain the so called fiscal conservatives voting for a populist who ran left of Clinton?

[DonFanucci]

What's preventing you right now from doing any of that?

 

I was referring to the proposals of Trump and Clinton, but of course some are true right now: A government monopoly in education, an utterly distorted health care market with forced redistribution, forced retirement planning, a fascist regulatory state, obscene tax rates with my money spent on things I oppose, a proposed revision of the first amendment, and proposed tariffs cover just the freedoms I listed.

That's the thing right? All those freedoms are pretty much available in all countries no matter they left or right lean with a few exceptions like Cuba or whatever. So the freedoms are there. You're just complaining about the price.

 

"those freedoms are pretty much available"... I can't not pay my social security tax and invest it now instead, I can't start a bank with a few of my neighbors, I can't hire someone for $6 an hour, I can't start a medical practice, I can't open a shampoo parlor for that matter, I can't start an insurance company and offer whatever insurance my customers want, I can't stop paying for older people's medicare, I can't stop funding the EPA with my tax dollars. Soon I won't be able to hire a Mexican. How am I free to open a school if my customers are all forced, under threat of jail, to give money to my competitors? This is a very unusual definition of 'available'.

 

This whole conservative ideology is repulsive at this point since it lacks any moral foundation and must go.

 

The moral foundation is stated in the declaration of independence, and it is this: every human being has a right to their own life. It doesn't belong to the state, or the collective, or anyone else. Happiness is the purpose of life, and people have a moral right to pursue it. No one else gets to dictate with a gun how you go about achieving it. What is the moral foundation for the idea that your life is to be decided by everyone but you?

[rb]

Then we can finish off the enlightenment values this country stood for permanently. We can squeeze out individual freedom with a socialist left and a fascist right. Then we will be only a few steps from dictatorship and western civilization on a clear path to a return of the dark ages. Happy days ahead.

I think the only way for the right to act rationally is to not act at all. I thought 2008 taught them that but nope, we are back to square one. I would rather have a wannabe socialist than an irrational tyrant. This whole conservative ideology is repulsive at this point since it lacks any moral foundation and must go. How else can you explain the so called fiscal conservatives voting for a populist who ran left of Clinton?

Yea, but he's not a stinkin' coastal liberal..... Oh wait...

It's because he embodies traditional family values!.... shit, not that either....

hmm... I wonder what it could be? Well he wants lower taxes... maybe that's it.