Parsad Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 One problem with gold and silver is that they do not always hold their value vs cash. It depends on when/what price you bought them. There is also a desire to create them with other means than traditional mining which can render them less valuable in the future: fusion, nanotech, mining asteroids. It all sounds crazy but, technology is advancing so fast than in 10 years it may be reality. Finally, who is going to accept it from you and at what price? If you want to pay close to spot and avoid collectible type items, you need to buy bars. The most convenient I have seen for gold is the ounce bar from recognized refiners: easy to store, very small, very low premium to spot and large value or $1,100 U.S. per ounce. However, if you want to exchange it for something, you still need to exchange it for cash first since no plumber, waitress or stripper will accept it! It is also too big of an amount for small transactions. Finally, you will also need to take it yourself to a recognized dealer and avoid being stolen. Since we are worried people here, would you rely on UPS or some other shipping means and then rely on the honesty of the dealer to say it was good gold and to send you a valid cheque? Cardboard +1! And in worst case scenario, you can eat cash...high in fibre. Try passing a gold bar through your colon! :) Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsad Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Personally, I think there is some need to hold some cash outside of an institutional account, simply because you could have a major catastrophe (Earthquake, solar flare, terrorist attack, etc) that forces you to do without the banks, internet and ATM's for a few days. As well in any financial crisis, there would be a run on banks for a few days or weeks, until the government could find another institution to step in or nationalize the bankrupt bank(s). You might not qualify for a loan also if banks suddenly tighten lending requirements like they did in 2009 and after. So a good chunk of cash sitting in a safety deposit box/safe/filing cabinet might be a good idea. I don't think you need gold or silver...unless you think the country is going to collapse into chaos. You would be better off spending that time and energy growing your own food in your backyard, paying off any debts/mortgage, than wasting it buying gold and silver. At least you could live off your own land...thus why Buffett would rather own all of the agricultural land in the United States plus 25 Exxon Mobils, than all of the gold ever produced. Fear drives people to do stupid things! Including very smart people. How many were buying gold at $1,800 US oz instead of Wells Fargo at $12 and Starbucks at $6 in 2008? Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorpRaider Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 I've got firearms and ammo. Why do I need cash? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CassiusKing1 Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 I have enough beer and bourbon in the basement to allow me to forgot the fall of any government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uccmal Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 I've got firearms and ammo. Why do I need cash? More useful. You can borrow Buffett's farmland on an as needed basis. I had to laugh at Starbucks today. A guys phone didn't complete the transaction and he had to do it all over again. I paid cash - still more efficient. And I have the added knowledge that I dont have to pay it off later. Cash is so very handy for so many things. The only reason governments want to get rid of it is to get more control over taxation. I think it will be a hard sell in the US and any country with a value added tax. I like my debit and credit cards as well but still use cash daily. If you think about it, non-cash transactions have been with us for 60-70 years. They haven't managed to displace cash, yet. Right now my preference is for greenbacks rather than multicoloureds :-). As mentioned before, how am I supposed to pay my girls, my dealer, and my ammo supplier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patmo Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Cash is king, winner takes all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ERICOPOLY Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 One problem with gold and silver is that they do not always hold their value vs cash. It depends on when/what price you bought them. There is also a desire to create them with other means than traditional mining which can render them less valuable in the future: fusion, nanotech, mining asteroids. It all sounds crazy but, technology is advancing so fast than in 10 years it may be reality. Finally, who is going to accept it from you and at what price? If you want to pay close to spot and avoid collectible type items, you need to buy bars. The most convenient I have seen for gold is the ounce bar from recognized refiners: easy to store, very small, very low premium to spot and large value or $1,100 U.S. per ounce. However, if you want to exchange it for something, you still need to exchange it for cash first since no plumber, waitress or stripper will accept it! It is also too big of an amount for small transactions. Finally, you will also need to take it yourself to a recognized dealer and avoid being stolen. Since we are worried people here, would you rely on UPS or some other shipping means and then rely on the honesty of the dealer to say it was good gold and to send you a valid cheque? Cardboard +1! And in worst case scenario, you can eat cash...high in fibre. Try passing a gold bar through your colon! :) Cheers! http://www.dudeiwantthat.com/food/novelty/sht-gold-pills.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StubbleJumper Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 I loved this rant, completely agree! Cash is king. To pile on: -We are putting a roof on a house we own. The contractor quoted us a check price and a cash price. The cash price was a few hundred dollars lower. Why? Because he could pay the truck driver and materials on the spot and doesn't need to rely on suppler credit. He said for the lack of hassle and cost savings he passes it straight on. I happily paid cash. Or perhaps he simply prefers to have a few cash sales because there's no traceable documentation which could trip him up when he fails to report the revenue from that job to the IRS. It's a nice little boon to his financial situation to charge you $5k to do your roof, not report the revenue and then apply the $3k of costs (for which he will certainly have documentation) against the revenue that he must declare from the clients who do pay him by cheque. But at least the explanation that he provided to you is less sleazy than the simpler alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LC Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Let's be real, cash is less efficient in 99.9% of scenarios. Yes if civilization combusts MAYBE cash will be more useful, but really only for a week or two tops. In reality, the gov't will step in and stabilize things. Unless you think the Oregon militia is going to step into that vacuum of power. LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LC Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 I loved this rant, completely agree! Cash is king. To pile on: -We are putting a roof on a house we own. The contractor quoted us a check price and a cash price. The cash price was a few hundred dollars lower. Why? Because he could pay the truck driver and materials on the spot and doesn't need to rely on suppler credit. He said for the lack of hassle and cost savings he passes it straight on. I happily paid cash. Or perhaps he simply prefers to have a few cash sales because there's no traceable documentation which could trip him up when he fails to report the revenue from that job to the IRS. It's a nice little boon to his financial situation to charge you $5k to do your roof, not report the revenue and then apply the $3k of costs (for which he will certainly have documentation) against the revenue that he must declare from the clients who do pay him by cheque. But at least the explanation that he provided to you is less sleazy than the simpler alternative. Seriously, this is the correct reason. Supplier credit? Give me a break, that's being naive. He's worked with that same truck driver for months/years. He says listen, I'll pay you when I get paid. Either do the job and get paid after I get paid, or don't do the job and don't get paid at all. The truck driver knows that. And he's buying materials out of pocket from Home Depot, whether you pay him by cash or check. He's giving you a break on cash because it causes him less of a headache with taxes and dealing with cash flow. This guy is a contractor who would rather be on his couch than your roof. He looks you over once, and figures really quickly how much of a break he needs to give u to cough up in cash. I'm guessing on a 5K job it's about $200 bucks. $300 if you endeared yourself to him and asked about his family and shared a cigarette and beer with him. Supplier credit? C'mon now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurgis Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 I paid cash - still more efficient. LOL, no. It's always the guys (and gals, let's spread blame evenly) with cash who waste everyone's time in a line. Swype the card is way so much faster. I hate cash payers in line. Mobile phone payers can be pain too though. Technology is new, rather crap and doesn't work often. Same with mobile phone boarding passes in airport - they try to scan the damn thing, touch the screen, phone goes to some other app, 10 minutes later... :'( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpadebet Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 I loved this rant, completely agree! Cash is king. To pile on: -We are putting a roof on a house we own. The contractor quoted us a check price and a cash price. The cash price was a few hundred dollars lower. Why? Because he could pay the truck driver and materials on the spot and doesn't need to rely on suppler credit. He said for the lack of hassle and cost savings he passes it straight on. I happily paid cash. Or perhaps he simply prefers to have a few cash sales because there's no traceable documentation which could trip him up when he fails to report the revenue from that job to the IRS. It's a nice little boon to his financial situation to charge you $5k to do your roof, not report the revenue and then apply the $3k of costs (for which he will certainly have documentation) against the revenue that he must declare from the clients who do pay him by cheque. But at least the explanation that he provided to you is less sleazy than the simpler alternative. Seriously, this is the correct reason. Supplier credit? Give me a break, that's being naive. He's worked with that same truck driver for months/years. He says listen, I'll pay you when I get paid. Either do the job and get paid after I get paid, or don't do the job and don't get paid at all. The truck driver knows that. And he's buying materials out of pocket from Home Depot, whether you pay him by cash or check. He's giving you a break on cash because it causes him less of a headache with taxes and dealing with cash flow. This guy is a contractor who would rather be on his couch than your roof. He looks you over once, and figures really quickly how much of a break he needs to give u to cough up in cash. I'm guessing on a 5K job it's about $200 bucks. $300 if you endeared yourself to him and asked about his family and shared a cigarette and beer with him. Supplier credit? C'mon now. +1 ;D The only supplier credit he is sharing is a small portion of the taxes he is avoiding by getting paid in cash. Most likely he hasn't even heard of the term "supplier credit" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmitz Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 More useful. You can borrow Buffett's farmland on an as needed basis. I had to laugh at Starbucks today. A guys phone didn't complete the transaction and he had to do it all over again. I paid cash - still more efficient. And I have the added knowledge that I dont have to pay it off later. Cash is so very handy for so many things. The only reason governments want to get rid of it is to get more control over taxation. I think it will be a hard sell in the US and any country with a value added tax. I like my debit and credit cards as well but still use cash daily. If you think about it, non-cash transactions have been with us for 60-70 years. They haven't managed to displace cash, yet. Right now my preference is for greenbacks rather than multicoloureds :-). As mentioned before, how am I supposed to pay my girls, my dealer, and my ammo supplier? If the apple pay with the watch actually worked (mainly that it hardly is usable anywhere I go, and even then NFC readers are not consistantly working) it would be more convenient. It’s…not near that. But in most cases it’s faster to use a swipe card than cash for me, between cashiers who aren’t that good with it anymore and trying to get the cash back in order in my wallet and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddballstocks Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 I loved this rant, completely agree! Cash is king. To pile on: -We are putting a roof on a house we own. The contractor quoted us a check price and a cash price. The cash price was a few hundred dollars lower. Why? Because he could pay the truck driver and materials on the spot and doesn't need to rely on suppler credit. He said for the lack of hassle and cost savings he passes it straight on. I happily paid cash. Or perhaps he simply prefers to have a few cash sales because there's no traceable documentation which could trip him up when he fails to report the revenue from that job to the IRS. It's a nice little boon to his financial situation to charge you $5k to do your roof, not report the revenue and then apply the $3k of costs (for which he will certainly have documentation) against the revenue that he must declare from the clients who do pay him by cheque. But at least the explanation that he provided to you is less sleazy than the simpler alternative. Seriously, this is the correct reason. Supplier credit? Give me a break, that's being naive. He's worked with that same truck driver for months/years. He says listen, I'll pay you when I get paid. Either do the job and get paid after I get paid, or don't do the job and don't get paid at all. The truck driver knows that. And he's buying materials out of pocket from Home Depot, whether you pay him by cash or check. He's giving you a break on cash because it causes him less of a headache with taxes and dealing with cash flow. This guy is a contractor who would rather be on his couch than your roof. He looks you over once, and figures really quickly how much of a break he needs to give u to cough up in cash. I'm guessing on a 5K job it's about $200 bucks. $300 if you endeared yourself to him and asked about his family and shared a cigarette and beer with him. Supplier credit? C'mon now. +1 ;D The only supplier credit he is sharing is a small portion of the taxes he is avoiding by getting paid in cash. Most likely he hasn't even heard of the term "supplier credit" Wow, quite the pile on here. Yes tax avoidance is what everyone thinks of with paying cash. I've had contractors like that, I watched a driveway guy take my cash and then divvy it up to his workers on the spot. On the other hand supplier the materials and credit is a real thing. A good friend worked with this at a giant materials company. My friend said supplier credit was one of the major reasons contractors went out of business. They kept rolling their credit, it grew, eventually they couldn't pay and they'd close up shop. The company (publicly traded) loved it, they charged insane rates and milked contractors. The credit was like a drug to these guys. They needed to keep the wheels spinning with the hope they could get ahead, but you never could. I need to ask, but I believe there are two prices for raw materials, the cash price and the credit price. The company knows credit customers will eventually go under and marks up the price accordingly. Maybe I'm naive. If the guy seems shady (and I've met a LOT of shady guys) and the tax avoidance is the cash reason I'm looking for a bigger discount. Some of these guys are 100% up front about the fact they're avoiding taxes, in that case I want more than a 5% discount, I want a 25% discount. This guy doesn't take credit cards and went on a rant about accepting cards. As someone who has a business that takes credit cards I agree 100% with the rant. Cards are a pain, about 25% of them don't work when you try to run them for a renewal. They expire, they need to be maintained. If someone pays me with a check and an invoice I will cut them a break for the lack of hassle. Credit cards suck. At the end of the day I don't really care. The house has a VERY steep roof and other quotes we received were absurdly high because the guys didn't want the job. This guy gave a competitive price and was willing to do the job, and I saved a few hundred bucks by paying in bills verses a check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LC Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Haha, sorry it came off like that, I wrote that last post after about 4 old fashioneds last night on an empty stomach! Much love, Nate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fareastwarriors Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 My brother is a contractor and he only accepts cash or check. Why add an extra expense for Credit card fees when people still have checks (somewhere). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddballstocks Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 someone has been spending too much time on zerohedge. In some ways I feel like DTEJD1997 completely trolled this forum. The guy is a coin dealer and I believe owns a coin store. There was a thread on this a year or two back. He's talking his book like anyone else here talking some stock. I think it'd be interesting to know how many people on here could really pull together $4-5k in a day or two (probably most, but this is also a board filled with rich people). I worked at a place with stock options that needed to be exercised with cash and in talking to co-workers the common response was "who has $3k in cash laying around?" The idea that anyone even had that sort of money available was absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurgis Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 In some ways I feel like DTEJD1997 completely trolled this forum. Of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelagic Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 I think more of you guys should check out Venmo. For transactions in the $100s of dollars range that you'd normally use cash for it's great - direct bank transfer between parties with no fees, quick and efficient. Venmo cautions against using it for paying merchants but between friends and friends of friends its perfect for transactions. Frankly I have no idea how they make any money and was kinda concerned they're not going to be around much longer but PayPal bought them so we're good - hopefully. With a lot of banks offering check deposit through their mobile apps now checks might see a come back in lieu of cash or cards, makes it actually pretty easy for both parties involved, assuming the checks are good and the parties trust each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsad Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 someone has been spending too much time on zerohedge. In some ways I feel like DTEJD1997 completely trolled this forum. The guy is a coin dealer and I believe owns a coin store. There was a thread on this a year or two back. He's talking his book like anyone else here talking some stock. I think it'd be interesting to know how many people on here could really pull together $4-5k in a day or two (probably most, but this is also a board filled with rich people). I worked at a place with stock options that needed to be exercised with cash and in talking to co-workers the common response was "who has $3k in cash laying around?" The idea that anyone even had that sort of money available was absurd. Stock options paid for in cash? Really, that's crazy. I would agree, that most people on here could pull together that type of cash no problem. I could do that in ten minutes. But most people on here are smart enough, and as you said probably well off enough, to keep a certain amount of cash and liquidity. Average Canadian debt/income ratio hit 170% yesterday...highest since 1990. Not sure the average Canadian/American could wrangle that type of cash up right away. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTEJD1997 Posted January 21, 2016 Author Share Posted January 21, 2016 someone has been spending too much time on zerohedge. In some ways I feel like DTEJD1997 completely trolled this forum. The guy is a coin dealer and I believe owns a coin store. There was a thread on this a year or two back. He's talking his book like anyone else here talking some stock. I think it'd be interesting to know how many people on here could really pull together $4-5k in a day or two (probably most, but this is also a board filled with rich people). I worked at a place with stock options that needed to be exercised with cash and in talking to co-workers the common response was "who has $3k in cash laying around?" The idea that anyone even had that sort of money available was absurd. The original intent of this thread was exactly what I said it was...the discussion of the importance of having some amount of currency on you and readily accessible....How people have kind of forgotten/ignored that. I also wanted to share some of my observations of what I am seeing in my personal life...and my thoughts on the subject. I do not own a coin store. I was looking at purchasing one somewhat over a year ago, but never did for a variety of reasons. I do sell/trade gold/silver as kind of a hobby...but I don't do business with anyone on this board (to my knowledge). Nor do I look to solicit any business from this board. I think you guys are just a bit too skeptical... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valueorama Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Whenever i read about gold/silver investment, i need point this/similar story. http://blog.sfgate.com/stew/2012/09/18/7m-in-gold-bars-found-in-dead-recluses-nevada-home/ As long as you dont end up like this, i think you will be ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nelson Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 This thread is especially interesting to me since I own a position in DirectCash, an ATM operator. I do some hard money lending. Most people pay me back in cash, some do post-dated cheques. A select few will to electronic transfers, but let's face it. If you're borrowing money from a guy rather than a bank, you're not very financially savvy. These people deal in cash. They barely have bank accounts. So I end up with a bit of cash each month, which I split up between me and the wife and we spend it on stuff. My credit card only gets used for online stuff and the occasional big thing. I'm that guy who is ahead of Jurgis in line fishing out nickels so I end up with paper change back from a transaction. Even though I use tons of cash, I still think much of what DTEJD1997 said in the original thread is overstated at the least and flat out wrong at the worst. A disaster might happen once a decade where you won't have access to credit/plastic, and even then you're only without it for a matter of hours to at most a couple of days. As for holding gold and silver, I'm not interested. They're just too manipulated by speculators to be natural inflation hedges. Just look at the meltdown in each after the 2011 highs. If you're scared of paper money, stuff like real estate, and oil will still have real value. There's also no way paper money is going to collapse for the whole planet. So if you're scared of the U.S. turning into the next Zimbabwe, just make sure you have investments diversified around the world. Easy. I don't think cash ever goes away. It's still pretty convenient, certain people really like having it, it's easy to transfer, etc. The use of it might slowly go down over time, but that's it. Ever since I bought Directcash shares I've been keeping an eye on ATMs wherever I go out. And the amount of people I see using them even though the store/restaurant takes all forms of plastic is unbelievable. When you're not very financially savvy, paying $2 for access to your money is apparently quite okay. We accept that people eat fast food and drink soda that's bad for them knowing full well the consequence, yet we don't accept they'll do things like withdraw money while paying $3 for the privilege or pile into mutual funds. I find that interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepupil Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 between credit cards and venmo, I'm nearly completely cashless. My total ATM withdrawals were $200 for the year 2015. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
writser Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 I think you guys are just a bit too skeptical... I think that's a good trait for a value investor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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